I personally think the US needs a high performance 510 CID single charger diesel class. I think almost every diesel fan would really enjoy a colorful high RPM class here in the US. Bigger isn't always better, Nascar lowered cubes and moved the sport forwards, Indy cars continue to lower cubes and move the sport forwards, NHRA lowered cubes to move the sport forwards. Every auto maker is building smaller, more efficient engines with more HP. Tractor manufactures offer engines in the 500 range but keep squeezing more and more power out of them. Big cube engines are dinosaurs. Smaller cubes isn’t going backwards, but rather it’s forwards thinking. The backwards mindset of bigger is better is stone-age thinking. Since pulling organizations either don't have the backbone, or foresight to dramatically lower the cubes maybe they should just start a new class for diesels with lower cubes. Write the rules now and give it time to develop (by the way, 505-510, not 466) Look at the success of the LSS class, it’s growing by leaps and bounds. I think we’re long overdue for a Light Pro Stock class here in the US, I’d love to see something very, very similar to European rules: 505-510 CID, stock tractor blocks, (no OEM replacement Hyper blocks, no billet blocks, just IH, JD, AC, NH, etc… blocks), something that is similar to what manufactures actually still sell. Let the guys that want to build 640-680 run in their class, but start a [u]new[/u] class for the 505-510 guys. Give it some time to build and then see where it goes. http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,14693#msg-14693 Fri, 04 Sep 2026 12:38:56 -0700 Phorum 5.2.23 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15611#msg-15611 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15611#msg-15611 -------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve talked about this class with my father and
> a close friend for a few years now. Actually all
> three of us agree that pulling really needs two
> new 510 diesel classes:
>
> One that’s a full blown 510 Pro Stock class (any
> charger, any pump, etc…)
> and
> One that a 510 Super Farm type class (P-pump,
> Stock heads, 3x4 or 4.1 type charger, etc…)
>
> Personally I’m more interested in watching the
> 510 Pro Stock class, but I think the sport needs
> both classes in the future. I think both classes
> would be an absolute great additional to the
> sport. I would like to see a 510 SF type class
> stay a state/regional type of class, and the 510
> PS type class be a national class. This thread
> has been some great discussion on both types of
> classes I'd like to see.


I'm all for this 510 SF class you post here. If the class is ever made I'm in. Maybe with 3x4 turbo and 8,000lbs.
I'm in hot farm and would love to move to a SF class, just not 640ci. With 510ci and the bigger turbo and lighter weight it would make for a good show. I'm ready to upgrade my tractor to a class like this.


my 2cents, nick]]> Anonymous User Pulling Forum Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:41:37 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15594#msg-15594 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15594#msg-15594 JRP Pulling Forum Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:35:32 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15520#msg-15520 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15520#msg-15520 You run in a world of 1930s flatheads...
They put on a nice show and have a very special appeal ( I ran a Kohler single cylinder Super Stock about 10 years ago, too) - but put to a performance test against OHC and OHV engines... ouch]]> Sascha Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:00:33 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15515#msg-15515 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15515#msg-15515 patches Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:05:52 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15506#msg-15506 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15506#msg-15506 patches Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:49:54 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15495#msg-15495 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15495#msg-15495
It’s all speculation, whether a billet block will: save a class, kill a class, or have no effect on a class. Nobody really knows what will happen. I don’t own a billet block or a stock block so I have no bias on which way the rules go as per an investment. As a fan I do have a bias on what I prefer to watch. I prefer to watch tractors powered by a tractor block. That’s my choice and my preference. I don’t and I won’t support a billet block in the tractor classes. That is my opinion, and my choice. You don’t have to agree with me, we can agree to disagree and that’s fine with me.

There’s only one way to really know… take a scientific approach, start a full blown 510 Light PS class and a 510 Light SF/ Light Limited PS class with stock blocks and keep the LSS stock blocks. Then go to billet blocks in the 640+ classes. Give it ten years and then we will know what pullers and fans truly prefer.

Time will be the real test. (;)I'm going to blow my own horn but...) I’m still sticking with my predictions though, because my track record of predictions hasn’t been too bad.]]> Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:31:08 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15493#msg-15493 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15493#msg-15493
With the idea of straping the block or bracing the block why put all the time and money it to finding some thing that will work when you can just build billet and be over? Like I posted earlier look what a billet aluminum block will take. Top fuel is running 7000+ HPs with nitro and the best SS may only be running half that or a little more.

If it comes down to it being the only "stock" piece of tractor left then have them run a stock streering wheel or have a factory 3rd link on the back of the tractor I just don't understand why a person would spend $1-200,000 on a engine with a factory block that was designed to handle 250Hp at the most. It have been posted that NASCAR or NHRA are all using high performance block designed for their specific needs, then why should pulling be any differant??? If you think that the major manufactures are going to come in and save the day, Well I guess we could all dream.
Thanks Chucky]]> chucky Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:47:07 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15485#msg-15485 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15485#msg-15485
how the EU Pro Stock Rule is written down, it is not allowed to downsize the engine when it is equipped with stock 4Valve head. max size with 4V is 7300ccm (445cui). the 2Valve head engine with max 510cui, you are allowed to downsize.

Regards]]> Anonymous User Pulling Forum Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:15:06 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15480#msg-15480 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15480#msg-15480
I'm fine with components. Not going to touch the block rule.

However, I question why any fan or puller has an issue with a tractor being able to run the fuel it came from the factory with.
Does Colberg dominate sf? No, but he can win from time to time. Does Cespedes dominate PS? No. I'm not sure he's ever won, but I enjoy seeing him pull at BG. So, the dominance argument is a red herring.

Why only diesel? Why have grandfather clauses for 2 yellow tractors (one in SF and PS)? I think for both SF and PS, whether the existing cube and weight breaks, or what Jake is proposing, should allow a tractor to pull the fuel it came from the factory with for that make/model of tractor. Whether LP, Propane, Pure Purple Maple Syrup, etc, if the manufacturer had a tractor run on a given fuel (except for some eastern European tractors that I've heard rumors were made to run on methanol... not sure it that's correct), that fuel should be allowed in the class.

It would give more variety, and color.]]> The Original Michael Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:42:35 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15479#msg-15479 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15479#msg-15479
> I honestly don’t think billet blocks are new
> technology, just alternate technology. “New”
> tractor technology is OEM 4 valve heads and OHC.
> New stock tractor technology is 300 HP on a 500
> inch motor with EFI, low emmisions, great fuel
> economy. Pulling needs to embrace what’s being
> sold today, and not what was being sold 40 years
> ago. Nascar is successful because they run a Ford
> block in a Ford car. Fans care that a Ford is
> powered by a Ford. Nascar isn’t perfect, and
> some of their rules are antiquated, but they have
> never forgotten that Fords are powered by Ford,
> and they never forget how brand loyal their fans
> are.


NASCAR might run what you call a ford block, but it's a small block that is only for NASCAR. You can't get it in a current car. You can't even buy it for any other racing purpose. The blocks they use are not the same that you get from Summit or Jegs. They are made for NASCAR racing only, and there technology is very similar to pulling with hyper blocks with the old fuel technology. There is no stock parts on a stock car, not even the block. And the core of the tractor is long gone years ago, the vin number is on the rear end. I'm not saying billet blocks are the way to go, but some kind of better after market blocks could bring back more color.


nick]]> Anonymous User Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:02:17 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15476#msg-15476 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15476#msg-15476 elrod Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:02:17 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15475#msg-15475 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15475#msg-15475 smoke high in the sky Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:48:05 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15474#msg-15474 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15474#msg-15474
NASCAR reduced cubes and the sport grew...not ! A huge decrease in factory involvement made that rule come about. A 433 c.i.

engine was legal until mid to late 70's,but it required a restrictor plate,small blocks could run w/o plate. NASCAR hitched it's wagon

to factory backed small blocks..Chevrolet being the most popular . They remained a small,southern region sanctioning body ,Mopar left stock car

racing in mid 70's. NASCAR started it's growth with the return of Ford,1980. Current Cup engine rules have a 358 ci maximum AND a 350 ci

minimum. Bill Elliot tried a 317 Busch setup to defeat restrictor plate,France and company were not going to have those boys stink up their

series with a superior engine plan,hence the minimum. We still ended up with 9000 plus rpm combo's . V6 engines were run in the Busch series.

The rumble of a 90 degree V8 is a huge part of the appeal of stock cars,hence their return. Fans didn't like bumblebee buzzing V6 cars.

Audience is shifting ? Fools who claim NASCAR is a driver's series are wrong. Tony Stewart worked hard to get back in a Chevy. Earnhardt

Nation would shrink considerably if Dale Jr went to racing a Toyota. The part of the audience that is leaving room for muscle car fans coolers ?

Casual "driver series" newbies who can't quote mechanics of competitors cars from memory. Flavor of the month folks.

What tractor pulling needs ? It's participant driven, so what increases numbers would help the most. Might be a new class,allowing new or

different parts. I disagree with you,billet won't kill it . There is tremendous momentum in pulling with new light classes, I think that's the next step

up the ladder.]]> EFV Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:19:23 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15473#msg-15473 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15473#msg-15473 Grease Burnin Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:00:04 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15470#msg-15470 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15470#msg-15470 The one class you speak about, does exist. Its called Light Pro 8200lbs, 540ci, oem head, p-pump and 3.15 X 4 turbo. They run the class in Ohio and also Missouri. I believe Missouri run a 3x4 turbo.]]> Dave 255 Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:53:08 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15469#msg-15469 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15469#msg-15469 yes we CAN Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:49:08 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15468#msg-15468 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15468#msg-15468 Sascha Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:40:17 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15467#msg-15467 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15467#msg-15467 Sascha Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:37:44 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15466#msg-15466 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15466#msg-15466 llss Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:19:58 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15464#msg-15464 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15464#msg-15464 Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:08:09 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15462#msg-15462 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15462#msg-15462 itty bitty v8 Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:50:08 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15461#msg-15461 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15461#msg-15461
One that’s a full blown 510 Pro Stock class (any charger, any pump, etc…)
and
One that a 510 Super Farm type class (P-pump, Stock heads, 3x4 or 4.1 type charger, etc…)

Personally I’m more interested in watching the 510 Pro Stock class, but I think the sport needs both classes in the future. I think both classes would be an absolute great additional to the sport. I would like to see a 510 SF type class stay a state/regional type of class, and the 510 PS type class be a national class. This thread has been some great discussion on both types of classes I'd like to see.]]> Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:47:49 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15459#msg-15459 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15459#msg-15459
I don’t like different weights for component and non-component tractors. Horsepower is created in the engine, not the rear-end.

Let’s take two almost identical tractors, let’s make them 1066’s one with a stock rear-end, one with a truck rear-end and planetaries. Let’s say both tractors have full length chromoly frame rails. The 706 rear-end has been lightened up quite a bit (lets assume it used to be a LSS, Heck maybe it was the old Tennacious tractor), and the new component tractor has steel planetaries and the big Eaton center section. Both tractors weigh almost the same thing bare. Both tractors make 2500 HP and have identical combinations. Why should a guy with a 706 rear-end get 500 lbs? Just because he built a 706 rear-end?

Let’s take it one step further, a CaseIH rear-end is different from a 706 rear-end, should there be a different weight for a CaseIH rear-ended tractor vs. a 706 rear-ended tractor?

In my hypothetical situation I’d bet on the better driver and the guy who sets his tractor up better, not the one who has a certain rearend.

Personally I think one weight is fine for whatever chassis you CHOOSE to build. The rearend doesn't make the power.]]> Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:37:35 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15456#msg-15456 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15456#msg-15456 Fuelish Fan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:26:28 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15454#msg-15454 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15454#msg-15454
I completely agree regarding some of Nascar’s antiquated rules. If Nascar is smart I think they will probably eventually adopt updated engine rules. I’m not a Nascar expert, but common sense makes me predict that the engine limits in Nascar’s future will be smaller than they currently allow. It wouldn’t shock me to see all EFI injected V-6 rounding the NASCAR ovals some day.

The one thing Nascar knows is their audience. Unlike pulling Nascar caters to the fans first. I also believe that Nascar knows where their future lies, and they know that their audience is gradually shifting away from muscle car enthusiasts.

By the way, an injected V-6 will put on every bit as good of a show, maybe even better.]]> Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:17:54 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15453#msg-15453 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15453#msg-15453
- I don’t think they will be a long term solution.
- I don’t think they will stay brand specific in the long term. It will evolve to the same billet block for any hood.
- I think the block is the heart of a tractor, it’s not the cab, it’s not the tires, it’s not the rear-end, it’s not the frame rails, to me the part that keeps a component tractor a tractor is the block. Yes the hood makes it look like a tractor, but if still feels like a tractor if it’s actually tractor powered. A billet block for me as a fan will just be a single engine mod class. Some people see component tractors as a mod class, and that’s fine, I respect their opinion, but to me it’s the block.
- One other reason I’m against a billet block is because I honestly don’t believe we have exhausted all of our resources yet. There are tie downs, and other restraints that can be implemented to keep blocks together in an unfortunate event, some of the technology is out there already and in use..
- The last reason I’m against billet blocks is cost. From scratch I could build a component tractor cheaper than I could a stock chassis. So a component can be built cheaper and it can also allow new model tractors. I could never build a billet block cheaper than I could find a junkyard block. I'm willing to bet that I could look around at some local junkyards and find a block suitable for a pulling tractor for under $600. How much would a single billet of raw unmachined steel big enough to machine a block myself cost?

I believe that billet blocks are class killers.

I honestly don’t think billet blocks are new technology, just alternate technology. “New” tractor technology is OEM 4 valve heads and OHC. New stock tractor technology is 300 HP on a 500 inch motor with EFI, low emmisions, great fuel economy. Pulling needs to embrace what’s being sold today, and not what was being sold 40 years ago. Nascar is successful because they run a Ford block in a Ford car. Fans care that a Ford is powered by a Ford. Nascar isn’t perfect, and some of their rules are antiquated, but they have never forgotten that Fords are powered by Ford, and they never forget how brand loyal their fans are.]]> Jake Morgan Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:00:39 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15439#msg-15439 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15439#msg-15439 -------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with 007, but we need to start somewhere.
> We need a 505-510 cubic inch diesel option. We
> need a NASCAR class that somewhat represents what
> tractor companies are producing today. The sport
> needs to start it's future plan now.


Just remember that NASCAR requires a push rod v8 and a carburetor,[which is tech from the 50's-80's]
they don't have EFI or overhead cam. John Deere ran the old tech mechanical diesel motors until 94 with the 4960. So NASCAR is behind just like us old school [60's tech] pullers, but the factory tractor tech is ten years less out of date than the race cars are[94-vs.85]. NASCAR is new sheet metal with a tube frame and 1950's small block with all the race parts you can throw at it just like pro stock pulling.

just my 2 cents, nick


P.S. thanks for this sight to share ideas and for the classifieds.]]> Anonymous User Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:45:07 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15435#msg-15435 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15435#msg-15435 Anonymous User Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:04:18 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15430#msg-15430 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15430#msg-15430 ACLLSS puller Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:46:39 -0800 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15423#msg-15423 http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,14693,15423#msg-15423 old man river Pulling Forum Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:17:42 -0800