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        <title>Pro stock history question</title>
        <description> Pro Stock were supposed to be a less expensive alternative to super stocks (like super farm was supposed to fill the same niche 20 years later).

My ? is:  Were the original pro stock rules doomed from the start, or was there a rule change NTPA made along the way that facilitated the spending spree?</description>
        <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343697#msg-343697</link>
        <lastBuildDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2026 12:40:10 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343822#msg-343822</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343822#msg-343822</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Very well worded (and absolutely truthful) response!!!!!<br />
<br />
This line here says it all....<br />
<br />
<b>"The only complaint I see across the board is how Deere dominates the class. Deere dominates 1 class out of how many and you&#039;d swear pulling is going to die because of that 1 class"</b><br />
<br />
B)-]]></description>
            <dc:creator>nailed it!!!</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2025 06:42:13 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343819#msg-343819</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343819#msg-343819</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Relax, Couldn&#039;t have said it better myself.  Were complaining about a class that probably has the biggest following of spectators, with new tractors coming out every year, and can fill how many sessions at the NFMS and still leave some good tractors at home?  Should I mention the spark plug guys that have switched over recently to run this class?  But yea your right it is too costly and no one wants to run this class and its dyeing.  As for color it has the 2 most popular tractor brands in it with a few others mixed in, no one complains about color in the super stock (all red), light/limited pro (mostly red with some green), super farm (decent mix of red and green my area mostly red)......  The only complaint I see across the board is how Deere dominates the class.  Deere dominates 1 class out of how many and you&#039;d swear pulling is going to die because of that 1 class.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Badgerfan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2025 06:16:51 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343818#msg-343818</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343818#msg-343818</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ 4510, I&#039;m afraid your logic eludes me. Why would lowering cubic inches not allow all brands to compete? Any puller can always decube to make a class, shouldn&#039;t be any different in PS.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Dick Morgan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2025 06:12:42 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343817#msg-343817</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343817#msg-343817</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ None of those get eliminated.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>patches</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2025 06:07:43 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343816#msg-343816</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343816#msg-343816</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ so we complain no color but then we want to cut cubes down taking away the massey and the oliver and the john deere motor.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>4510</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2025 04:09:15 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343815#msg-343815</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343815#msg-343815</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="bbcode"><div><small>Quote<br /></small><strong>patches</strong><br />
Most of us that have been watching since the 70s remember how much more interest there was in the classes.personally I&#039;m not a fan of any particular brand,I&#039;m a fan of the sport,which in my eyes takes people to be fans.the more there are the better it is.when there was real ac&#039;s, fords,and cases mixed in it gave variety.altho at that time not many off brands could be competitive due to sheer numbers.its a shame those brands got pushed out of most major classes.pulling would be so much more interesting if the off brands could be competitive with stock blocks.simpson made the ac live at the highest level, of diesel classes,even against recast blocks..there&#039;s a reason why there&#039;s only red and green in national classes,it&#039;s not because the others are not good quality,it&#039;s not looking toward the future</div></blockquote>
<br />
Agreed 1000%]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Supertiquer</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2025 19:06:48 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343813#msg-343813</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343813#msg-343813</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="bbcode"><div><small>Quote<br /></small><strong>Jake Morgan</strong><br />
<br />
jake there was no complaining about any of this when ih was winning all the pulls now they are on the short end this is what we here.<br />
<br />
I was complaining about the 680 cubic inch limit 20-25 years ago when IH was still at the top of the class.  I got told by tons of small block Deere guys and IH guys that they weren&#039;t worried about the big block Deere.  The writing has been on the wall forever for those who were willing to look.  This motorsport has been HORRIBLE about looking towards the future and addressing problems BEFORE they become problems.  If Prostock was knocked back to 510-540 20-25 years ago we probably wouldn&#039;t have Light Pro, 4.1 Limited Pro and 5.0 Limited Pro.  We might have one of those but not all three.</div></blockquote>and wed have a gn and state levels too]]></description>
            <dc:creator>patches</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2025 18:38:51 -0800</pubDate>
        </item>
        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343809#msg-343809</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343809#msg-343809</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="bbcode"><div><small>Quote<br /></small><strong>4510</strong><br />
jake there was no complaining about any of this when ih was winning all the pulls now they are on the short end this is what we here.</div></blockquote>
<br />
I was complaining about the 680 cubic inch limit 20-25 years ago when IH was still at the top of the class.  I got told by tons of small block Deere guys and IH guys that they weren&#039;t worried about the big block Deere.  The writing has been on the wall forever for those who were willing to look.  This motorsport has been HORRIBLE about looking towards the future and addressing problems BEFORE they become problems.  If Prostock was knocked back to 510-540 20-25 years ago we probably wouldn&#039;t have Light Pro, 4.1 Limited Pro and 5.0 Limited Pro.  We might have one of those but not all three.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Jake Morgan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2025 16:15:37 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343788#msg-343788</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343788#msg-343788</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ These long threads of everyone trying to "fix" the arguably most popular class in the sport is quite laughable.  Wasn&#039;t the big pro class dying, and going to be dead by now??   Just sit back and enjoy the show. If the big pros end up dieing,  than holy hell is that light pro class going to be a ton of fun to watch!!!!!!]]></description>
            <dc:creator>RELAX!!</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2025 20:50:26 -0800</pubDate>
        </item>
        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343778#msg-343778</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343778#msg-343778</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ jake there was no complaining about any of this when ih was winning all the pulls now they are on the short end this is what we here. As far as ac and ford i dont know what bubes they can get to but dont they get to run a cumminsmlike Barkers. Also i believe there is a very well known engine builder that ran small block deere that was said to only have 626 cubes in prostock and won many pulls.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>4510</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2025 17:48:45 -0800</pubDate>
        </item>
        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343764#msg-343764</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343764#msg-343764</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Most of us that have been watching since the 70s remember how much more interest there was in the classes.personally I&#039;m not a fan of any particular brand,I&#039;m a fan of the sport,which in my eyes takes people to be fans.the more there are the better it is.when there was real ac&#039;s, fords,and cases mixed in it gave variety.altho at that time not many off brands could be competitive due to sheer numbers.its a shame those brands got pushed out of most major classes.pulling would be so much more interesting if the off brands could be competitive with stock blocks.simpson made the ac live at the highest level, of diesel classes,even against recast blocks..there&#039;s a reason why there&#039;s only red and green in national classes,it&#039;s not because the others are not good quality,it&#039;s not looking toward the future]]></description>
            <dc:creator>patches</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2025 13:07:44 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343760#msg-343760</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343760#msg-343760</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ You do realize this isn&#039;t just about IH?<br />
<br />
When the class first started there was no limit.  Eventually it was set at 680.  In around 1999 or 2000ish the NTPA lowered (or tried) to lower the class to 620 but rescinded the rule.  The cubic inch issue has been an issue for a long time... hence complaining about it for a long time.  This isn&#039;t just about IH, it&#039;s about AC, Ford, etc...  Sure there are a couple of True Massey tractors... but is there any other band running a factory block other than some big block Deere?]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Jake Morgan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2025 12:14:51 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343747#msg-343747</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343747#msg-343747</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ dick you constantly complain about the 680 first think back to when this class started you had don nolan with his moline that was at least 800 cubec the massey won first points at at least 640 so you can oliver had 636 john deere at 619 ih is the only one that stayed with small cubes. im all for smaller cubes if thats what you ih  guys wan t but you also go back to running facctory style pumps you cant have your cake and eat it too ih controls most classes and this is all we hear about from you guys. they have made alot of progress in the big pro class and if ih would win nfms this would go away for awhile why else do we go to the 5.0 class its not money its about ih not winning if they dont want to spend the money there is 4.1 class to go to or other lower classes.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>4510</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2025 06:00:31 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343745#msg-343745</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343745#msg-343745</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ At the  inception of   every  new class  there are always  good intentions.   You get a good group of  tractors together and  within a couple of years  someone  always  wants to change the  situation to  they&#039;re  advantage   if you  create  a class that is intended to be  1200 to 1500 horses and  6000 lbs. And you want to  make 2500  go to a  different  class.    Whenever you have a  group with a reasonable amount of  parity  and  more then a couple that can win anytime you will keep your  following  but when 1 or 2 win all the time  you&#039;ll  lose equipment in a few years.  how many  times  we&#039;ve  seen this happen.  Nothing is  completely  fair  i understand that.   But how many times must we go through this  before we  learn.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Fuzz</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jan 2025 18:55:53 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343739#msg-343739</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343739#msg-343739</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Anytime you mix adrenaline and endorphins it costs money to keep up to feed the need, I don&#039;t care what&#039;s competing.  Chasing that natural high of a roaring crowd over the sound of an engine has got to be the ultimate rush, and you can&#039;t blame anyone spending coin to do it.  <br />
<br />
Good luck overcoming human nature.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Bryan Lively</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jan 2025 16:37:48 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343729#msg-343729</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343729#msg-343729</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Heard that saying for years about “rules cost money” and have always fully agreed with it.  However, with top level power advances, this is not really true anymore.  Can we say a top level HSS or PS is cheaper to build (and maintain) than a limited pro or super (or any other lower class)?<br />
<br />
Agreed, power takes money.  There are only so many people that are willing to spend the kind of money (and time) it takes to be competitive at that level.  I think the point they are making above is if the trends we have today continue it will likely hurt the sport over time (at all levels).]]></description>
            <dc:creator>maybe</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jan 2025 07:38:23 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343722#msg-343722</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343722#msg-343722</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ <b>"Since the inception of prostock in 1980 we&#039;ve learned almost nothing nhra and Nascar along time ago realized this"</b><br />
<br />
And how has that worked out for Nascar? I sure wouldn&#039;t say it&#039;s been beneficial from a fan attendance/excitement standpoint.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>no thanks</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jan 2025 04:32:30 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343715#msg-343715</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343715#msg-343715</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Years ago a puller told me that if you want to see guys spend money,  pass some new rules,  the more rules you make the more it costs.<br />
<br />
It takes money to make horsepower,  no getting around that fact.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Mark (EC,IN)</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 17:07:33 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343710#msg-343710</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343710#msg-343710</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ At this point  in the  game. Consolidation  and  reorganization  is necessary. one option is to police  horsepower and  not equipment. Example. A. 1000 to 1500 hp  class for beginners. A 2500 hpfor the  average  pullers  and a 3500 to 4000 hp class for the  professionals. I  can already  hear the  screaming in the  background.  Pulling  is the only  sport  with  basically  no limits  take good  class with a  decent  following  and  in 5 or 10 years we let the  big egos and checkbooks   ruin  it. Since the  inception of  prostock  in 1980  we&#039;ve  learned  almost  nothing    nhra and  Nascar along time  ago realized  this. Maybe it s time we did too before its all gone]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Fuzz</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 14:48:13 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343705#msg-343705</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343705#msg-343705</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="bbcode"><div><small>Quote<br /></small><strong>Under_Pressure</strong><br />
No the same basic format has always been there. Only major change was allowing components, but things were on the current course long before that. The 680 ci thing doesn&#039;t help, but even if it were 540 or something, I don&#039;t think the costs would be drastically lower. I think probably the biggest thing was diesel supers getting more and more unreliable combined with the alcohol super revolution in the 90s- the focus for dollars and competitors looking for the top dog diesel class switched to PS. Around the same time, diesel performance/motorsports in general really took off, so pump/turbo/etc. R&D was happening beyond the traditional tractor pulling niche, most of it geared towards single-turbo inline 6s.</div></blockquote>
<br />
Thanks for your insight. From reading responses so far, it seems to me NTPA should have set some limits on turbos and pump from the beginning.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>The Original Michael</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 11:16:26 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343704#msg-343704</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343704#msg-343704</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ No the same basic format has always been there. Only major change was allowing components, but things were on the current course long before that. The 680 ci thing doesn&#039;t help, but even if it were 540 or something, I don&#039;t think the costs would be drastically lower. I think probably the biggest thing was diesel supers getting more and more unreliable combined with the alcohol super revolution in the 90s- the focus for dollars and competitors looking for the top dog diesel class switched to PS. Around the same time, diesel performance/motorsports in general really took off, so pump/turbo/etc. R&D was happening beyond the traditional tractor pulling niche, most of it geared towards single-turbo inline 6s.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Under_Pressure</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 11:05:04 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343702#msg-343702</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343702#msg-343702</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Bill Grimes has videos of the old 70&#039;s/80&#039;s PS class under his YouTube channel so.md.dirt farmer. He ran Buck Shot and the Delaware Ether Eater II. There are several videos including running at the Buck Legends pull in 2021. Charlie Hoober ran his previous owned tractor too. These tractors remind me of the current Hot Farm class. Bill talks a lot about how the PS class went from guys like himself building something out of nothing to what I call the vendor tractors of today. He says that&#039;s why he got out of pulling. He is a very interesting guy. Rainy/snow day video watching.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>jd43</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 10:16:28 -0800</pubDate>
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            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343701#msg-343701</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343701#msg-343701</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ I believe the day that they decided to add inner coolers to this class is when things really started to change.  5.0-5.4 turbo would of been about the limit to how big of a turbo that they could of run, now they are putting turbo limits on the class, when all they would of had to done is get rid of the inner coolers. Just my thoughts.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Goldclub</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 10:16:11 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343699#msg-343699</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343699#msg-343699</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ The rules that allowed 680 cubic inches is the biggest problem.  However in retrospect who would have ever thought that the PS would pass the 5000 hp threshold. The early PS were in the 1000 hp range.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Dick Morgan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 09:24:45 -0800</pubDate>
        </item>
        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343698#msg-343698</guid>
            <title>Re: Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343698#msg-343698</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ The rules that allowed 680 cubic inches is the biggest problem.  However in retrospect who would have ever thought that the PS would pass the 5000 hp threshold. The early PS were in the 1000 hp range.]]></description>
            <dc:creator>Dick Morgan</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 09:24:44 -0800</pubDate>
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        <item>
            <guid>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343697#msg-343697</guid>
            <title>Pro stock history question</title>
            <link>http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?2,343697,343697#msg-343697</link>
            <description><![CDATA[ Pro Stock were supposed to be a less expensive alternative to super stocks (like super farm was supposed to fill the same niche 20 years later).<br />
<br />
My ? is:  Were the original pro stock rules doomed from the start, or was there a rule change NTPA made along the way that facilitated the spending spree?]]></description>
            <dc:creator>The Original Michael</dc:creator>
            <category>Pulling Forum</category>
            <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:58:09 -0800</pubDate>
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