Outlaws LLSS April 03, 2017 07:37AM
Any news on the Outlaw LLSS? Any rules available yet?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 03, 2017 01:25PM
If they get something going and my tractor fits the class some one could get in without breaking the bank
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 04, 2017 01:28AM
Last I heard was 5500-5700#, "Small Frame" tractors, single charger, something like 310 Alky or 410 Diesel, and 24.5's.Have to wait for Doug to be along for the most up to date rules or pull in the LSS with the other LLSS that don't fit the rules.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 05, 2017 09:12AM
I have talked to Doug about this and since those rules do not match the now Nationwide rules, I am hoping he puts a different spin on the name of the class.
He has a legitimate reason in his area for those rules just hope a name change can keep anyone from getting confused. And the class is not coming out until 2018.


Eric Prewitt
The Prewitt Pulling Team
Public Relations for
The Pulling Radio Network
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 05, 2017 12:53PM
Just what we all need another class or one with odd ball rules.Come on Doug
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 05, 2017 01:35PM
It's PAINFULLY obvious why Doug keeps doing the rules and classes like he does. That way the "sheep" cannot wonder off and pull wherever they want. They MUST stay in his stable with his "bastardized " rules and box turbos so he gets a kick back. It's about his pocket and NOT the pullers So here we go again with a new box turbo class and new memberships Follow the money and it's easy to see
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 08, 2017 02:36PM
Its no wonder you cant get the rules the same every were But the cash that's being spent in the llss class now will end up killing it so maybe when it does Doug will have some good rules we can all fall back on we already have some 6000 thousand dollar turbos hanging on several of these tractors now when 'a 1200 dollar box hx60 would have been more than enough to keep the price of the class down and still put on the same show go for it Doug but consider the rules that's already out there except Agg tires only no Data Loggers . box turbos and make it 5700 then you would have the KY class that grew to over 30 tractors in just a few years thats starting to go the other way now because of the expence
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If Doug was the one who added TWD April 05, 2017 01:14PM
Let me preface by saying I respect Mr. Roberts accomplishments, but his M.O. of adding a class but giving it an oddball rule package that deviates from standard is getting old.

I honestly feel that if TWDs were not already part of Ourlaws when he took over, their rules would be something like 7000 lbs, limit to 500 ci and 8-71 blower, no body styles before 1970 permitted.

NTPA and PPL have a few differences in a couple classes but for the most part they run similar rules. Heck, PPL modifieds have done very well in recent years even running heads up against NTPA unlimiteds.

When adding a class already established or with standard rules as the LLSS guys are making every effort to do, why not stick with what the rest of the country uses?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2017 01:15PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: If Doug was the one who added TWD April 05, 2017 05:38PM
Well, Outlaws 2wd has a 650 cubic inch limit.
Some have tried to get it backed off to 575 like the rest of the pulling world, but when voted on by the class, the 650 rule stays.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS April 05, 2017 07:33PM
Well, those "sheep" tend to hang around!
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 06:24AM
Anything on this yet or did the class go away with Doug?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 07:02AM
No the class will still be offered next year and the rules will be out by the banquet or sooner
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 09:17AM
Will there be a meeting for interested pullers to discuss rules or is it a done deal?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 08:54AM
Please consider running rules are are already out there (BOB/KTPA/South central WI) most of the clubs running the class have tried to move towards a more common set of rules. If that's not what outlaws is looking to do change the name!
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 10:17AM
I hope they stick with the rules Doug told me. A lot of pullers and builders are sure hoping they stay with Dougs rules he put out there. Only ones against it are pullers with the big frame tractors. Outlaws already have the 6200 LSS and 6200 USS classes so don't need another 6200 LLSS class that has same sheet metal. Then along with DSS and all the other classes for big frame tractors. I know lots of small frame tractors sitting around in barns and with tractors in other associations that would like to pull in this class. It would grow faster than the LPS class.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 10:55AM
Even better make it 6000lbs like it is in KY
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 01:28PM
A word of advise make it Box tubo with a 1500 dollar buy which will get a new HX60 and agg tires only theres already several tractors parked here in KY DUE to if you don't have a high dollar turbo or a hard to find high dollar set of 10 ply pullurs you may as well stay at home the class has passed the beginner affordable class it was mint to be agree with me or not but watch and se KTPA has 5 or 6 tractors pulling regular I will guarantee if those rules were adopted enough parked tractors would come back out and with the sleds we have put on just as good of a show and eliminate 10.000 dollars to the cost of the build that is only going to get worse the junk yards are full of 30.5 aggs but without spending 10.000 for a new set of pullers used ones are hard to come by thers not been a pull won this year in KY by a tractor with agg tires and the 10 plys old style are the dominating tires Make it a Apples to Apples class istead of who spends the most monnie
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 02:07PM
Roberts will get it right. That is what he is best at when it comes to rules and fair competition that keep the cost down. Look where Outlaws is at under his leadership.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 03, 2017 02:10PM
Apparently you didn't get the memo, Doug Roberts is no longer with the outlaws...
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 04:26AM
Quote
Puller
I hope they stick with the rules Doug told me. A lot of pullers and builders are sure hoping they stay with Dougs rules he put out there. Only ones against it are pullers with the big frame tractors. Outlaws already have the 6200 LSS and 6200 USS classes so don't need another 6200 LLSS class that has same sheet metal. Then along with DSS and all the other classes for big frame tractors. I know lots of small frame tractors sitting around in barns and with tractors in other associations that would like to pull in this class. It would grow faster than the LPS class.

Does anyone have a print copy of these rules that were put out there?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 05:48AM
As a tractor builder I called Doug on the rules and he gave it a lot of thought and really made sense and I agree with what he was doing. Will make it an exciting and affordable class and that is what happens when someone that knows the mechanics of a class makes the rules. I think this class will really take off. Outlaws does need to get the rules out there so engine builders like myself can start making some parts now instead of winter time. There are 3 tractors interested in this class from around here after I told them the rules, cubic inch, turbo, tire size and weight. Good job Outlaws on making the class the way it should be!
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 08:17AM
So what are the rules. I have a WTPA LLSS and was wonder how it fits.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 12:47PM
I THINK A 4500 OR A 5000 POUND CLASS WOULD BE GOOD LOTS OF FUTURE PROBLEMS WOULD BE ELIMINATED
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 01:16PM
What rules did you have in mind?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 05, 2017 03:25AM
Kurt - I am guessing that you will stick with the original rules that were discussed but my question comes with are there any plans for the LSS class and what would it take to get intercoolers added so "large frame" tractors that were built for LLSS can run when you guys are close?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 06, 2017 03:52PM
Most of these old tractors sitting in barn that just everybody is itching to get out, were big carbed, or single charger stuff.
To keep the class light, and simpler, make limited light pro stock! 24.5 tires, single charger
Screw the SS deal!
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 06, 2017 12:51PM
Also talked to Doug, and from that part of the country. But I have asked and hope it is still being considered to name the class, Ed Shoobridge has worked hard to get a National set of rules and to name a class the same that makes it confusing for fans. Name Outlaws new class Classic Super Stock or something just not LLSS.


Eric Prewitt
The Prewitt Pulling Team
Public Relations for
The Pulling Radio Network
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 06, 2017 01:53PM
If Outlaws names their LLSS "Classic Super Stock", as suggested by Eric, just how close would the rules be as compared to the many year old & successful COTPA / Full Pull (US East) Classic Super Stocks? If they are not rather identical, then, once again, we have a named class with major rule differences geographically in the country.

Just like Hot Farm is now. No rule uniformity across the country but same class name. Talk about confusing.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 09, 2017 01:21PM
I think a Utility Super Stock Class would be neat at say 4500 to 5000 pounds and must be a utility model tractor say 250 cube limit no six cyl allowed 18.4 by 30 tire limit or maybe the 24 by 26s Just a thought for something different a alky turbo charged 165 MF would be n eat to watch Whos in if there was some interest in KY I believe we could get plenty of places to pull
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 09, 2017 03:17PM
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LEWIS
I think a Utility Super Stock Class would be neat at say 4500 to 5000 pounds and must be a utility model tractor say 250 cube limit no six cyl allowed 18.4 by 30 tire limit or maybe the 24 by 26s Just a thought for something different a alky turbo charged 165 MF would be n eat to watch Whos in if there was some interest in KY I believe we could get plenty of places to pull

And pull them with a mini sled perhaps? Lol
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 01:42AM
Lewis, last winter or early spring in a different thread, I was the one to suggest such a class as what you just said. However, I would allow it to be up to a twin turbo diesel to compete against a single turbo alky, whether its utility or row crop as many models offered both versions using the same model engine.
I agree it would likely bring many tractors into competition and should be a really good entry and rather affordable (anything pulling related today is expensive) tractor class. I think it would be neat to see a class of that size and what they can produce for pulling power.
In that thread (do not remember the topic), I even discussed various sized 4 cylinder engines, with a maximum allowed up to, yeah, what did I suggest, umm, about 300 cubes.
Was thinking not to allow a six cylinder but then a MH 101 with its flathead six fits the class criteria. Gary Overton from near Ottawa, Ontario had or perhaps still has a MH 101 that worked well. If fact, that is what the Missouri Conner Bros. had to perfect their fuel injection system before moving into the big tractors.
Think I would call it something like an Ultra Light Super Stock.

Logan, you probably are correct. Likely the Nearpass and Bingham and Bauer Mini sleds would be fine. Likely the Nearpass 'in between size' sled would do well, too. And they will probably handle a full size sled alright, also.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 04:00AM
Here is a class we are working on. And planning on using a mini sled when possible, but can pull the big sled after talking to some sled operators. We have put a lot of thought into these rules and think it should be a fairly economical class to build for. They will basically be 2/3 sized LLSS's.

ENGINE

Diesel - 360 Single Turbo
260 Twin Turbos

Spark- 310 Single Turbo

TURBO

Turbocharger(s) shall not exceed a 2.66”

CHASSIS

This class is for stock appearing tractors with full hood, grill and side panels. Must be recognizable as an actual production tractor. Engine must be covered by hood and/or side shields

Maximum length 9 feet from center of rear axle to forward most point. Excluding tow hook.

Maximum wheelbase 78".

TIRES

18.4-16.1

WEIGHT

4000 lbs
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 10:49AM
Conner Bros. and Garry Overton had MH203.
Continental Flathead 6 cyl. 330cu

Q.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 04:53AM
Mini sled is just added expense for promoter
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 06:40AM
There is a lot of 3800 lbs two wheel drive trucks that pull a big sled with no issues. I'm don't know why a 4000 lbs tractor shouldn't be able to do the same.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 11:35AM
When you say the 3800 lb. 2 wd's have "no problem" pulling the big sleds,,,,,,
Have you noticed the big sleds have to at least start with the pan wheels down? Some have to leave them down for the whole run.
I don't call that no problem.
A good mini sled would be just the ticket for the 3800lb. 2wd class.
As well as for the 4000 lb. little tractor class.
And Jeeps, Scouts, and Bronco's. And all the ricer 4wd's.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 12:14PM
I agree that a mini sled will work much better. Now that I think about the "big sleds" I was thinking of are more "medium sleds", but the 3800 lbs trucks seem to pull them ok.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 01:15PM
A stock WD45 AC with 14.9 28 tires can start any of todays sleds you cant compare something with a street legal 15 inch tire to a 18.4 tractor tire And why I said utility model theres not any like it here as far as I no in the US every thing is a Row crop CLASS a 44 massy Haris is a row crop put a 5.9 cummins in it and pull llss AS todays sleds can make any class fast the light hot farms are runnin 3to4 mph faster down the track than a llss tractor my question for why twin turbos 360 cubes and all that stuff for a 4000 pound class with 16 inch tires on it sounds like a good class to pull at one of those Super Cub event s and real expencive mayby diesles 250 cubic inch and alcohol 200
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 15, 2017 07:00AM
I think it's asking a lot of people to build tractors for a class that is not offered anywhere else in the US and may only last one year. That is a lot of expense to put into something that may not be worth a nickle the next year because the class fell through and there are no similar classes anywhere else, so the the tractor isn't worth much when sold.

It seems that too many organizations (and regional classes) come and go, so at least if you stick to some general rules that are at least somewhat nationally accepted, it makes the pullers feel that it is a little less of a risk sinking money into building a tractor for a class that may (locally) fall through in a year. Also, if you follow some generally accepted rules, it will make it a little easy for people that don't want to or know how to build their own tractor, to buy something that is complete or mostly complete to get their start with.

There are already so many classes out there, adding more and more of them just muddies the water to the point that you have so many different rules that there is no continuity and therefore makes it harder for the sport to grow.
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 15, 2017 08:14AM
I couldn't agree more. It's ideas and rules like this that hold back pulling. This short sighted " me me" attitude is no what limits the sport. There are already a well written set of rules for the LLSS class. Writing another set of rules does not benefit anyone, not the pullers who will have this " one of a kind" class tractor that they can't sell to anyone other than someone who pulls in the same club. Not the builders how have find a source of odd ball parts or the fans who do not get to see any other vehicles other than the few that will build for this one of a kind class.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 10, 2017 12:40PM
Well Logen you've not been around pulling long4500 and 5000 pound tractors use to pull real sleds back when tractor pulling was real if todays chevy S10s pulling in the mini classes couldn't have budged the old sleds ive pulled a many of times in a 4500 pound class
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 15, 2017 06:08AM
How much HP are the LLSS tractors making? Will a 3010 rearend hold up? With only 4 main bearings will a 4020 gas block work? What kind of engine internals will it take to run this class?
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Re: Outlaws LLSS July 15, 2017 01:18PM
I believe you could make it hold but I would do a 7 main engine lest cost in the long run
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Re: Beyond Outlaws LLSS July 16, 2017 02:18PM
Dick, what? So what is really wrong with what Lewis and I are suggesting? We are not disputing anything about the new national LLSS rules. I have been and continue to be a proponent of them. Overall, they can even be the rules for the class we are proposing other than for the obvious - like engine / turbo. This Ultra Light SS class would be a great compliment with the LLSS. It should be even more affordable (than LLSS), bring ing more new pullers and membership. Is not that part of what pulling is about? I believe there a lots of local sanctioning bodies / clubs that would benefit from such a class. And if more than one of them had the same standarized rules, these tractors could travel and pull with other associations. What's wrong with that?

But then you and several others are probably once again thinking the big stage of pulling. Not everyone can afford that, which also happens to be a common theme, Dick, you like to promote in your 'editorials'. Personally, I would rather watch a class like this than a T-bucket that looks like a skateboard.

When problems arise, a person needs to go back and think about the basics. What has been infringed upon in those basics that has created the (big) problem at hand. Perhaps that is what the 'big stage' pulling sanctioning bodies need to do in order to revitalize the out of control cost of building and competing with a pulling vehicle. It has been spent into oblivion. Time to think smaller and attract new members. Lewis' and my proposal may be a means to accomplish such. After all, why does tractor pulling have to continue to add more classes that all revolve around the fifty year old 100 to 125 horsepower tractor.

Dick, in your last sentence, I think the word "how" was not intended by you to be there. Can you clarify? Thanks.
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