02:05:46am, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
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Turmoil in Wisner
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Spectator
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What's with all the meetings in the Thunder Dome. Roberts looked pretty heated up about it! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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In the know
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Some tractors are cheating in light super class. Cast tractor class and some took out 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 foot of the cast and threw away. Now they have three component tractors out of same stable dominating all year. One thing you can say about Outlaws is they don't allow cheating and always bring down hard on cheaters. Class may be three tractors less today |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Bystander.
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What is really wrong with that. Isn't that the same theory as a profab transmission. A trans inside of a cast trans. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Answer
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The problem is they are taking the cast iron out of the middle to rear of the tractor. This allows them to run possibly another 100-200 lbs on the front end where it is needed for a good running light super. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw LSS competitor
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We work hard to keep this class even then the same guy that was class rep. 5 years ago voted to kick Wild Fire out for cutting 25 lbs off the back of his John Deere housing cuts 250 lbs of the case out of his tractor and made it a component. Doug said the most blatant cheating he has seen in 23 years with Outlaws. Doug was pissed and the whole class except for the three tractors in question appreciates that he has their back, unfortunately the board made a popularity vote out of it and didnt have the ba##s to do anything about it. Bad day and précedent that Outlaws set yesterday. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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???
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So let's not beat around the bush , who has been accused of this ? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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to ???
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ulmers |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh, if you can beat them then kick the out! Somethings never changes about whiners! You don't want to work of anything and want it handed to you! Life don't work that way! Ulmers are NOT cheaters! I have know them for years and they are hard working people and honest!! Hey I have a idea go to school and get a engineering degree like most of the Ulmer's have and you could figure stuff out. But it take work!!! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw LSS Competitor
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Easy to tell by looking at results. These tractors won the first 16 hooks of the season and most time top 3 places by 50 feet or more. Look for more of the same today and rest of year. Did hear that some other pullers may be taking their cast housing out for the rest of the year or stay home. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw LSS Competitor
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Just as everyone predicted the 3 cheating component tractor 1-2-3. Right at 60 feet ahead of the first legal tractor of the Barn Buddy. The rest of the top 7 tractors in the top 10 less than 20 feet apart. Congratulation to Chuck for being the winner! What has happened to Outlaws to let this happen! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Observer
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Wasn't the ford a winner before ulmers had it? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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To outlaw lss competitor
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Guess you better step your game up or complain to your fearless leader. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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Those 3 tractors seem to have lots more horsepower than anyone else in the class so you would expect them to win..Barn Buddy sure wasn't 65 feet back at the MO State Fair pull on a real good track.. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Asker guy
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Are the outlaw rules on line?
The old rule book I have states must have transmission and rear end HOUSING in place. No where does it say you must use stock gears or final drive, but it does state the housings must be used. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Kurt VB why did it take two votes? Vote not go the right way first time? Rules have definitely violated so time in ban for a year and take all points and year end money. 4th in points should now be in first place and so on down the line. I'm guessing since it's Ulmers instead of a member with just one tractor instead of 5or6 results would be different. Let's be honest the Comet has been known to be this way since it was seen split this past winter sorry boys no secrets in pulling. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Kurt VB
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The board voted unanimously both times after looking at the interpretation of the rules it was only voted on twice because more board members showed up in the afternoon so they took another vote feel free to call me if you have any questions. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Hmmm
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[outlawpulling.com] Here's the link for the rule book. I find page 27 interesting where it talks about transmission housings must remain oem. Guess if they're missing are they oem? It's also interesting that they can make an exception to this rule but won't allow competitors who didn't prepay to participate in the chase.....guess you need to have the right bargaining chip.... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I am really smh at some of these posts. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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This whole cast rear is a joke anymore as there isn't anything stock left in there it is just a decorative shell. Why not allow full component chassis and be done with it so everyone can put the weight where they want it. I'm not advocating the cheaters shouldn't be punished for what they did but why not take a look at the rules and see about making components legal- maybe give another 200lbs moveable weight to the tractors still running cast to allow a transition.
Is it any cheaper to configure a AG chassis for this class than just building a component style trans and rear with planetaries? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Bystander
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If you outlaw this type of rear end who says you can't outlaw a profab transmission which is almost a necessity to pull basically from superfarm on up. The thing with wild fire and crazy train was that they took strength out of their rear end. With ulmers it's just as strong since little to no force is exerted onto the cast rear. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Ohhh
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Like what the Oliver's try to do. If they can take it out why can't everyone else? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 632 |
I wanna watch you take the oliver trans housing out that would be interesting, haven't seen that done but hey you can learn all the time. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Observer
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Sounds like everyone is upset because they thought of it first. Not trying to start a fight but is a AG chassis defined in the rule book? I don't remember there being anything in any rule book that says you have to run the transmission case. By the way Outlaw LSS competitor not running the whole transmission case does not make a tractor a component. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Punisher...
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Typical of what usually happens in pulling, someone thinks of something you didn't think of and you get all pissed and want to throw them out. waaa waaa waaa!! Do the same to your tractor and stop whining |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Kurt VB
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Ottpa board and tech personnel will address this issue between ourselves, it does not need to be discussed on here ,and should not be, if you want to discuss how the rule should be written call me, as of now we have some people who see the rule one way based on general rules and some others have another view of the rule based on what the rule says in the LSS class rules , the Ottpa board and tech voted twice and this issue is settled , call me or a board member if you want to discuss further but do not entertain everyone on pull off with a issue , it will get settled by Ottpa pullers and board not on this thread. Thanks Kurt |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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For sure
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Roberts is what built Outlaws because he had the vision and knew the rules to keep everyone in line. All the decisions he made over the years on rules most other associations has copied. If he is pissed you can bet they are cheating and first time I can remember Outlaws not handing down a swift pentalty. Now you open up cheating to everyone. How can a board vote twice on something they don't know anything about without understanding what's going on. Just a Kangaroo court! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 05/24/2013 Posts: 380 |
With exception to fuel and water in a few organizations, what other rules have been adopted? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 135 |
Sounds like a gray area |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/03/2010 Posts: 393 |
I thought this was a forum where we could pretty much discuss anything we want to as long as we sign our name but sounds like Outlaws must have purchased "PULLOFF" since they seem to be telling everyone what can be discussed. Just my 2 cents. Have you sold it Jake? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2016 03:18PM by farmall puller. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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Well,if the facts are right,then that should work.... But what if they aren't and names are mentioned,then the words libel or defamation of character come in to play...Theres a fine line there...Just because its on the internet doesn't make it 100% true...I'd like to see lots more facts than just some one on here with an axe to grind....I'd like to see the Outlaws release an official statement.. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Sounds to me like if you can beat them better not join them |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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north
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Whats a grey area? Never heard of 1 of those |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Attention
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That new 1066 from Nebraska with the red headlights runs good but must not have got the memo from Outlaws that you can put your transmission case on the nose. He would have done much better with that extra weight. Oh, wait no one else in the class got the memo either. Must have just been mailed to South Dakota. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Never out smart Roberts
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Back a few decades ago Roberts actually built such an Al SS tractor with the bellhousing missing, part of the trans housing and replaced with a Dragster can and a full tube frame. He put the tractor on display for all to see and to photograph at Tomah.
No Roberts can never be blamed for dropping the ball. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
surely someone got a pic of this ??? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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What was final ruling? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/16/2014 Posts: 153 |
What a week of Outlaw pulling as we had 7 events in 10 days with 10 sessions of pulling. We lucked out on the weather as only part of the Weeping Water event got rained out. Great to be back in the Missouri State Fair and have such a good turnout of vehicles and fans. That show we put on this year will make a huge difference in next year’s crowd growing even more. The Iowa State Fair again had a big crowd and we are thankful again the weather cooperated and let us get it in. When it comes to Wisner, wow, what a crowd, the biggest they have ever had and what a show as it was the biggest also with over 200 vehicles showing up. We had over 400 hooks this weekend. Good job by everyone and great weather all week.
This brings me to this LSS controversy and I want to apologize to the three vehicles involved and also the rest of the class. This should have been handled when this came up at Sweet Springs, MO on July 30th. The goal was to have tech go up and take pictures of these tractors the next Tuesday when we were up at Concord, NE and it never happened for one reason or the other. We wanted to have this settled before the “Pull-off for the Championship” started at the Missouri State Fair. We had two and half weeks to get it done and dropped the ball and I will take the blame for that. Totally unacceptable that we couldn’t get that done. Whitey Zajicek talked to me on the way home from Wisner and we talked about what had transpired and he wasnt happy neither. He like most other board members didn’t understand it all. First of all for Craig Ulmer to called him about a board meeting in 20 minutes with a vote is not how we do things. We already had an educational meeting set for 2:30 with the class, tech and board members to discuss what is and is not acceptable with this cast rear-end class. Not to vote again. Many board members contacted me and had no idea what they were voting on and wanted to know why we weren’t following procedure that we have used in the past. I told Whitey I would do that and collect info, drawings, pictures and rules along with notes from past meeting so they can be informed to make an educated decision on these vehicles in question. That is the way Outlaws does business and the board sends in their votes after going over the facts and this system has served us well over the years. This info will go out in about a week with a postmark deadline the following week. With that said this class is done for the year. The next hook is at Kirksville co-sanctioned with Xcaliber and these tractors do not past their rules so we can’t co-sanction. We will make it a state level event and tractors with full cast can go. I am taking this class out of Spencer and not sure I will replace that class as a short notice to add a class in the middle of the week on the “Pull-off for the Championship”. The Pro Stock tractors have agreed to hook at Leonardsville, KS and Kansas State Fair. After the board votes we will know if 2 or 4 tractors are going to the finals in Brandon, SD. Since that time Mike Miller from USPA informed me that these three tractors and Outlaws are not insured if they are involved in an accident. We started USPA back in 2000 and are now up to 800 members as a group to get great insurance at a reasonable price for our pullers and promoters. On page 19 of the USPA rule book under Super Stock Tractor rules it reads: A Super Stock tractor chassis shall consist of the following: the stock engine block or OEM block that will bolt up to chassis without any alternations to chassis. The stock transmission housing or manufacturer’s replacement and the stock final drive housing or manufacturers replacement. Engine and clutch housing to remain in original location and mounted solid as intended by original manufacture. The tractor chassis must remain stock from the rear of the engine block to the rear of tractors on all super stock tractors. The clutch housing, transmission case, rear end housing and axle housing must be OEM, no aluminum replacement. All engines must be secured and held rigid to OEM chassis. Engine cannot move independent of rear/transmission housing. Let me say it is one thing to violate the rules for a competitive advantage, but an even more serious matter when in doesn’t past safety and jeopardizes our insurance. Again I apologize for the bad way this was handled. Thanks, Doug Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2016 03:07PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Team one
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Thanks for putting it all out there Doug, it's nice to get the full story and to be ensured something will be done about this . |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw junky
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Just trying to understand this better?
Did Mark Ulmer change anything on that rear end of that tractor from the time they brought it home from Brian's house to this season? If they did then fine, I understand the issue. If not why was that tractor fine for all the years in the past and not now? The Weapon - Has had a light rear end for years. Everyone has know it. Again, why now? Did Allen Ulmer change anything on the rear end of the Inferno in the time they have had it? If they did,once again I understand the issue, but if not wasn't that tractor one that you built in the shop of Roberts Machine. I can remember seeing that rear end and it being hollowed out quite a bit. Finally, Why must you through all your board members under the bus on Pulloff.com. There is information we all need to know, but we don't need to know all the details of private conversations. I know it's disappointing that things have gotten this far and not handled right, but in defense of your board and group. Not the place to pass this information along to. The right really tough leadership move is to let it ride and quite making up excuses for letting it go this long. This isn't a new issue nor anyones fault. Start over at the end of the year, because these tractors have been running like this or close to this for a long time, not just this year. I am sorry to the rest of the class, but these guys have done a lot of good for the class despite what some may argue. I can understand everyones frustration with what they are doing, but isn't the class responsible over the years for their rules and enforcement? How much would it of cost to tear these tractors down last year? This year? or over the past five years? Protest are what stops this, not tech or board members! Just my opinion.. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Thanks for clarifying rules are they banned for a year? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/24/2008 Posts: 176 |
As an outsider looking at this situation as a puller and past president of a club for 18 yrs. What a bunch of BS. Some popular tractors who already as stated make more horses than most blatantly break safety rules for an illegal competitive advantage let alone the integrity of the clubs future due to insurance violations and all you do is defend them and cry on their behalf. Shame on all of you! Mr. Roberts we commend you and your efforts and admission of your part in this situation, do not envy you . These violations need to be made an example of, for cheating seems to be becoming more the norm these days. Safety first people , what if it was you or your kids that could get hurt from accidents due to these conditions, just think about it people. Tractor pulling is an honor and a privilege NOT a god given right to do as you please to WIN at all costs. People who think they are above and beyonds rules don't belong in this sport and I don't care what class you pull in or what your pulln budget is it is time for ALL of us to wake up and just say NO more, or none of us will be able to afford insurance or have any place to pull. YES I am a tractor pulling purist it's supposed to be competitive BUT it's supposed to be FUN people. Bash away! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Doug, does USPA have an annual meeting and if they do, where is it located and may anyone attend it? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
My question Doug Roberts is this: If that is the rule for "Super Stock" tractors on page 19 of the USPA rule book, how do DSS or USS get by as they are also Super Stock. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Team one
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I was under the impression that the transmission housings had been removed/replaced somehow. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw bystander
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Team one, basically every "stock housing" tractor has a completely stripped, gutting, and completely stripped transmission housing. My question is why is the bad when it comes to a rear end. It is basically the same concept. A littler, stronger alternative. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Team one
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Right , gutted and stripped down but not fully removed....therefore making the engine not connected to the ag style rear which in the above rules is illegal, however I'm not 100% sure that is what they have done . |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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ihfan
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I'm a supporter of outlaw but the ball was dropped here. How can you cancel the class because a few guys may be cheating. Kick them out and carry on. So not fair to the other guys that pull this class. I'm disappointed as a fan. Come on outlaw so the right thing. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw Junky
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Has the chase for the points even started? Hasn't it started over twice now? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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New class
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May be time for the other big western association to look into adding this class and give these guys an honest place to pull. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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puller12066
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For people supporting these tractors, are you kidding? If these tractors have been cheating, they have been cheating! What does it matter when/where/time they got caught? It is what it is. Just because they've been doing it all season and nobody noticed means no big deal let them finish? What a joke... Kick the tractors out not the class.
If your wife catches you cheating tomorrow tell her it's fine I've been doing it all year, Ill stop next year |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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If you going to point fingers at the safety what about the @#$%& to get off the track.and the guy or lady out taking pics all it takes for that person to fall same goes to the people sit next to the rail. Your flag man should be fired to be let the women and four kids stand next to it.I like the sport of pulling me my girl friend spend lot money to these pulls.all it takes something to go wrong than you have big problems. I don't want to see any one too get hurt or die it's a matter of time it's going to happen. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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How can a John Deere 4020 run a 466 engine when it didn't have that from factory when it says that the engine must be an OEM model? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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puller12066
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The same way you put a 466 into a 1066... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
Or in an 806 or 560 |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 05/24/2013 Posts: 380 |
Actually a crank and a set of pistons and you'd never know the old 414 wasn't just that 
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Pionter outer
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The blue tractor had a clutch can , until this year. Clutch cans are illegal in this class unless you pull an Oliver. Mark changed it and put a cast iron Ford bell housing on it to be legal. Funny how when you live by carthiage Missouri cheating is fine. Hope ppl picks up the class and ulmers run it. This is a sad day for outlaws. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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PPL ULSS
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I believe they already fit PPL Light Super Stock class. If I were them I'd be on the phone with one of the PPL guys. I'm sure they would welcome with open arms. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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It's really sad to hear all this. The Ulmers are probably the nicest, hardest working people around, they build all of their own stuff. Mark is a self-educated genius, others just didn't like seeing him succeed the way he did with hard work. The whole family lives and breathes he's pulling. Alan finally starts having a successful year now and now people throw a hissy fit. Very sad to hear this happened to such good, honest, hard working people. The Outlaw association also doesn't realize the crowd that the Ulmers bring out. When you go to Rock Valley and even Wisner there are a lot of people walking around in Ulmer shirts. Those people most likely come from southeast South Dakota mostly just to see the Ulmers pull. If Outlaws aren't careful they may end up losing a large portion of their South Dakota spectators because many of us know the kind of great people the Ulmers are and we aren't going to support an organization that treats good honest people poorly. I'm not saying they'll lose a lot but they'll lose more than they realize. It's really unprofessional how Outlaw has treated them. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Hmmmm
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Must have rigorous teching to not catch something that would cause the insurance company to not cover them. Didnt a modified come apart a couple years ago and hurt a kid at an outlaw show? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Who's tractor
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Who has a 1066 with red headlights? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Anonymous User
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Jake Korth from northeast Nebraska |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I'm with patches, I'd love to see some pictures of the modifications that were made. There have been tons of comments but I not sure anyone is completely clear on what exactly has been done to these housings. I hope we can see some pictures to clarify the situation, while this gets sorted out. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw Junky
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This isn't a new subject. Many of these post are very correct from past observations of several different vehicles in this class. The Blue Tractor in question has had a component light rear end in for years. Pullers have complained about that for many years, but nothing has been done. No one can hide on this and say they didn't know these tractors had lightened up their rear ends. They all have known about it for years and yet it took until Wisner, NE this year to have a knock down drag out over this issue. Photos or no photos these tractors have had modifications done and you don't need the photos to prove it.People many of them have seen it for their own eyes. I don't see how its cheating if as a organization you had known knowledge of this and let it go for years especially after it sold and transferred into someone else hands. Did they get protested this weekend? Why as a puller in this class would you wait and lose all that money if you knew last year, the year before and all of this year that tractor was potentially illegal? Just think if you would of protested that tractor the first week of just this year how much money as a puller you would of made if you were right and that tractor or all three were indeed found to be illegal? How many Hooks did they have for this class? Lots of money wasted by not protesting.
Stop Pulling 350' and I think you will help this class out a lot. I am guessing these guys that have become custom to these distances with these tractors and might be guilty of putting faster gears in their tractors to go further faster. Get your speed up faster, lift that pan off the ground and you basically have a drag race to the end. Your gears and engine set up isn't going to be the same if you are pulling for only 300-310' every night vs 350 +. I am tired of hearing the argument that it puts on a better show. Really? 40' of separation is a great show? I am willing to bet your separation would be less then you all think if you we're able to contain those high speed tired tractors and then allowed some of the diesel guys to catch up. At least give them a better chance. In my opinion you have to factor all decisions made into all of this both on the track and off before you really get into pointing figures at who is at fault. Ulmers have been a part of this sport for a very long time. Good family in pulling! They don't cheat. They all have a lot of engine knowledge and are very competitive. There was knowledge of this. It wasn't hiding from everyone. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Builder
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There are HOUSINGS missing on the tractors.
Now,,,,, PAY ATTENTION! If the HOUSING is there, that is ALL that is required! There can LEGALLY be a truck rear end in the rear end housing. There can LEGALLY be a pro fab transmission in the transmission housing. Or an Urmson, Atlas, or whoeverintheheck custom gear package. Nothing at all illegal about that. So, everyone belly aching about that, you have NO GROUNDS to complain AT ALL. Legal in Outlaws, NTPA, PPL, and any modern pulling group. SOME antique pulling groups make it illegal. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw Watcher
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Seems pretty convenient that since Doug cancelled the rest of the LSS season and kicked out the Ulmers that the family that started all the complaining is going to be named the chase winner. Also pretty convenient that they have a Roberts machine sticker on the side of their tractors. With the way Doug handled this maybe it's time for the other owner of the Outlaws to take a bigger role in running it and Doug to spend more time traveling the county in that million dollar motor home. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Confused
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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I'm also with Patches..I'd like to see what was done....Were these 3 tractors protested by the rest of the class?? Have all the rest of tractors in the class been checked to see if they meet the rules?Outlaws has a class these 3 tractors would fit in if they want to make the changes.. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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oh well
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Schlueters "accidently" dropped an ether can underneath of the tractor and just happend to look up and seen it then. Ulmers are saying that haleys comet was already modified when they bought it so the assumed it was legal and did it to the other two tractors. haleys comet is saying it wasn't modified when he sold the tractor. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
so reading these I gather the rule in question was "bent" 2-3 years ago,how in the world did it go that long ??,maybe I pay more attension than most,dont other pullers walk up and check their competitors vehicles out ??,just a walk around ?? don't pics get posted all over the net of every vehicle,winner or loser ?? the guy checking hitches and hooking and unhooking is standing directly behind the tractor within 2 ft of the rearend and didn't notice the housing is gone ?? and it looks visibly way way different ??,id surely think if we lined up all the trs in this class in a row and walked behind them all most pullers wives could pick out the cast rearends vrs the component rearends.this sounds as crazy as signing up a component prostock for superfarm,just to see if you can hook it to the sled,just to see who catches it.....good lord |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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South dakota
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Might aswell cancel the class for good if ulmers don't pull, it is a joke class if it wasn't for them! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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The real joke
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The real joke is the 3 tractors that are cheating, absolutely no excuse for it ! I don't care who they are or how many tractors the take with them. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 135 |
It should probably be left as is for the season, the cast housings are there, just modified internaly, like every puller out there under 8200 lbs, only better, the rule should be changed next year to allow component tractors, problem solved. Before calling good folks cheaters, better take a good look at every light tractor, they are all cut up, and most are doing it to light, weak rearends like 460, 560, 656, 666, junk that did,nt hold up in a stock tractor, I know this because I have owned all of them. CHANGE THE RULE |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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Outlaws already has that class called Unlimited Light SS.....I think that you are right that most every light SS cast tractor rear end has been modified in some way.. |
Re pencer?????????????
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Worried
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Well with no light super class, a diesel super class that is probably the weakest its ever been, maybe 13 super farm, and the 4.1's, will they travel that far this late in the season, not trying to be miserable but is the Clay County Fair really worth going to this year? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
The problem will NEVER be solved with a component. |
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Re:turmoil in wisner
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 132 |
I agree I H 656 and 666 are junk they won't hold up. Go component and go back to being a light class of 5000 pounds. We should all update |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Face in crowd
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Heaven help the promoter who books a pull with next year's Outlaw LSS class, DSS class, ULSS and Semi class. He'd probably have about 10 pullers and the fans could all be home by 8 pm. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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Wisner had a total of 44 hooks in those classes this year....With the heavy hitters gone in LSS you might see more numbers for it for 2017?? Who knows what 2017 holds...As for the DSS and ULSS classes the numbers for them are down every where....NTPA only has 8 in the DSS points race and several of those have missed lots of hooks..They basically only have 6 in OSS.... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Face in crowd
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Let's compare apples to apples, if you use Wisner for Outlaws you will have to use Tomah or BG for NTPA. NTPA had 17 ULSS, 19 LSS and 15 DSS.
For my example, I wasn't picturing the promoter being one from Wisner. Just someone representing a fair somewhere. I think Moville had two DSS and didn't hook those other classes but the numbers wouldn't have been real good. But your point on LSS is one to consider. Some older LSS tractors may come out of the tall weeds to make a try at some of that Outlaw place money and there's nothing wrong with that. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Outlaw follower
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No offense to the other competitors in the class, there isn't one tractor in that class that can begin to think about competing with the "big three" when all is well. The real issue here would be trying to find a way to tone their motors down to give the others a chance. In my opinion what needs to happen within the organization is the Outlaw LSS class needs to turn into a LLSS class as you would see down in the south somewhere and try to get some of the old tractors that would be fit to run that class come back out of the weeds. After you turn the LSS class into a LLSS you can now focus on renaming the ULSS to LSS, if you go anywhere else in the country that class would be considered a full fledge LSS class. As you've noticed, tractors like the Voodoo Deere of Scott Holtgrew or Hoffmann's Last One Standing can go to a grand national hook or Louisville and compete at the top of the class. Marcus Wettleson with the Gunpowder & Lead tractor don't come to a OTTPA hook and walk away with anything, he has came to 7 outlaw pulls in the last two seasons and has only got 1st once and 2nd once. If the pacifiers of the OTTPA LSS class want to knock down the tractors on the top of the class, they better be ready to knock themselves down to a LLSS class where they should honestly be pulling. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Oh Well
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Well said... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Just a thought
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Instead of trying to slow the rest of the class down why not try to get them to step up their program to be able to compete? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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BIGREDLLSS
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We are just now trying to get the LLSS class off the ground in the cornhusker state. Heartland has had the class for a while and now the Mid America group has added it. Not many tractors pulling in the class yet but plenty have shown interest. The way I see it Outlaws have always tried to handicap their classes to keep competition fair in most of the tractor classes and even some truck classes with charger and fuel. The exception is the Super Stock classes. Now you have 3 or 4 top runners in the LSS class and a couple others that can run with them at times but choose to run other groups and a few tractors that probably should look at going back to LLSS. In talking with other I know that I am not alone in the feeling that something needs done with the class when you have a couple running within 10-20 foot of each other and the rest of the class is 60-80 foot back or there is only 3-4 vehicles in the class. Both were problems this year. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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This is bull @#$%& all it is is cause that @#$%& Robers MO guys can't win! He needs to get out he's a baby and POS as well!! Go Ulmer pulling!! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Pullers funny
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Is the answer to any tractor class out there just make it a component and be done with it that's a bunch of pure bullshit theres enough log skidder classes now tractor pulls used to mean something to people now its just a joke some of the big shot pullers couldn't stick there fingers up ass they just buy there way in .I am glad to se Doug keeping his Ag chasses rules keep it up the little guy that builds his own tractor has done something you guys that Hiper this Columbus that aint done @#$%& give my wife 500 thousand to build a superstock and tell Chezek to bring it on |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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To; Patches,,,, pay attention
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Typing slow, so you can keep up.
The rear ends in the Ulmer tractors are CAST. O.E.M. CAST H O U S I N G, All 3 of them. Ok, understand so far? Some part of the TRANSMISSION housing is MISSING on each of the three tractors. Hope you are still with me. The rules state the HOUSING must stay OEM. On the outside,, it is legal to put different stuff on the inside. No rule says they must use any OEM gears or driveline components. Let us review so far,,,, Rear ends, cast, = OK Transmission HOUSING, part, or all, MISSING, = NOT OK. Now, for the Outlaw fat tire supertiquer class, clutch cans are not legal. Except for Oliver's, and Deutz that are built in Carthage, Mo. So, "we" have clutch blankies covering up a cast clutch housing, and hiding as much missing transmission housing as possible as well as side shields and tin covering everything else as best as "we" can. So, I bet your wife, in fact, could NOT tell there is some part of a transmission HOUSING missing on the Ulmer fat tire supertiquer tractors. Neither could the sled chain hooker and unhooker. Most have a hard time identifying a hook point and kill cable ring. Except for Crazy Bob, but he don't work no Outlaw pulls. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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lawyer
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you all need to refer to outlaw rule book page 30
rules specific to light super stock tractors .= which is the last line on the page! then turn page to 31 and refer to #5 it clearly states following 5) Oem rear end and clutch housings. No component tractors in light super stock trans is not listed so it is not required as long as the tractor is not a component! so what is the definition of a component? component uses frame to hold engine to rear end . non component is engine is held to rear end housing with frame removed . so will tractors in question stay together if frame is removed if so they are legal entries. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 05/24/2013 Posts: 380 |
You failed the bar exam didn't you |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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amicus curiae
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Counselor you're correct about the specific light super rules however general tractor rules clearly state transmission housing
must be OEM. It doesn't say housing may not be modified or altered. Can anyone get pictures ? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Munchies
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I ran out of popcorn. Anybody have any extra? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/03/2010 Posts: 393 |
I do but I'm running low! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Mechanic
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The red tractors don't have a separate transmission housing. Two pieces...the clutch housing and rear end counselor. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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.02
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Kurt says to hush.
Doug blabs away. The train is off the tracks. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Old School
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What's all this crap about???? Build one based on an original component tractor. COOP, Leahr, Simpson, Friday, etc. Based on mergers and buyouts, should be able to run just about any engine, transmission and rear end. Case closed. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Kevin H
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LOL -  
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/03/2010 Posts: 393 |
I'm still wondering who owns "PULLOFF"? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Me. Why? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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rodeo clown
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So the class is just done for the year? No LSS in Spencer. I planned on going, but if you are just going to keep pulling classes out well then....... Maybe you can put in another class or pull the LLP twice. So did the 4th place guy win the points in LSS? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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I'm not a puller at any level but I enjoy watching pulling at almost every level. I try to see the Outlaw shows when they're somewhat close and I'm not busy. Three times this year. About normal for me and I can say I don't think I've ever been disappointed with what I've seen at an Outlaw Pull. I've seen those three tractors pull several times the last few years and most of the time they are impressive to say the least. With that said the owners may be engineering geniuses and the motors may be superior to most of the class but if the cast parts of the tractors don't meet the rules they are cheating plain and simple. This whole issue seems to run parallel with what society has become. Rules and laws are an outdated concept. It seems that many feel the rules should be ignored in the name of progress just because the technology to break the rules exist.The rules should be changed when the directors and the majority of pullers decide they should be changed. Certainly not at the tail end of a season. Like I said I like pulling, I like the Outlaw pulls and I like this class with or without those tractors. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Greg
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I wouldn't be overly happy if I was one of the other pullers besides Ulmers and class was cancelled. I didn't cheat but got punished. Seems very strange. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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I agree and yes it does seem very strange they would just cancel the class instead of just dealing with the offenders. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Spectator
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This is amazing to me ......... It was brought to my attention that Allen Ulmer actually posted pictures of what he has in the "center" of his tractor and it's NOT a cast housing. Pictures are worth a 1000 words right? So he is admitting that he is "circumventing " the rules And yet so many are saying Ulmers would never cheat. ...... Per the rule book that would be cheating Maybe those pictures can/will find their way onto here |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Spectator, READ THE RULE BOOK before you make such a statement. I have seen the pictures and according to the RULES that I have read in the Outlaw rule book, Ulmers have done NOTHING WRONG! SMH |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Builder
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Supertiquer,,, you are WRONG!
The pictures on Facebook clearly show Roberts is 100% correct. The tubing is probably stronger than the cast part it replaces, but is short strength it should have if designed better. But, even IF it is stronger/safer, it is in direct violation of Outlaws rules for a cast tractor, AND likewise, does NOT meet the definition of a component tractor. I do agree taking the whole class out of the mix for the rest of the season is harsh, BUT, how many vehicles would be in the class with the missing 3 Ulmer tractors? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Builder, I am sorry but I don't see that in the rule book that it is a direct violation of a cast tractor. If the rulebook would say that there is to be no modifications allowed, then I would agree with you, but from what I see in the rule book, it doesn't state that. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Builder
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Well, rule book is clear, the cast piece needs to be there.
Taking it clear off the tractor and throwing it away is NOT modifying it. No transmission housing on the tractor= not legal. Simple really. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Builder, that's the thing. They didn't take it clear off. The front of it is still there and the back of it is still there. The piece in the middle is missing and I understand that, but where is the line drawn on how much can be taken out? Is it 50, 80, or0% to get an aftermarket transmission in? And if there's a line drawn then like Twister said, it would ban any transmission housing with an aftermarket transmission in it because something has to be ground out to get one in. Now we may not be able to actually see it but we know it's ground out and that no longer makes it OEM either. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Twister 07
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This entire situation is very unusual to say the least. First off the family in question has done more for the sport than 99% of the people on this page! That does not give them a right to cheat, which I personally believe they have not done!! I would recommend reconsidering the labeling people that most on here do not know as cheaters. If you happen to be directly involved then this may be a great forum for discussion of the issue but it certainly is not the place for personal character degradation.
Now on to the issue, how and why are tractors picked out of the crowd near the end of the year and found to have an illegal chassis? Was it based on performance? Was there a protest filed? If not, why would this not be a subject for a rules meeting in the off season? Were these tractors not put through tech at the start of the year? The manner in which this discrepancy seems to have been handled is an interesting approach to say the least. Even if there were a direct violation, why make the entire class pay by canceling their season? Why would there be vehicles built years ago having similar modifications deemed ok? The single most important question I have is who draws the line in the sand stating what the limit of modification to a transmission housing is? If we state that the housing must remain "stock" then I would argue that there are a very large number of vehicles that would be found illegal. The fact is that the clutch housing in question is in place as is the rear of the transmission housing where it bolts to the reared. If you read the rules that is all that is clearly stated. The stock appearing or OEM portion of the rule has been ignored for years. I'm not making the case if that is right or wrong, just that it has been ignored until now. If people responding to this thread are actual pullers then I would caution you all that this is potentially a larger issue than you may think. What is being stated if I understand correctly is that transmission housings must appear OEM to be legal. This would ban any housings with a Profab, Atlas, SCS transmission, etc. I believe most of you on here who compete would argue against such a rule. If there is to be different clarification between that example and the example in question then I would also argue that the offseason is the place for such a debate. All just my .02 Thanks |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 09/03/2010 Posts: 393 |
I thought you did Jake. Kinda looked like Outlaws were telling trying to tell everyone what they could talk about earlier in this thread so was wondering. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Anonymous User
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What a bunch of crybabies they have way more power than the rest of the tractors. I don't see any rules that are broken what it comes down to is if you cant beat them ban them |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Registered: 01/31/2012 Posts: 99 |
I totally agree with Twister 07, very well put. As the rules are worded, these tractors are not in violation, by my interpretation. If they are, then all with profab, or similar transmission, are also in violation. I have seen the pictures, yes they went further with removing more cast then any I have seen, but how much is too much? When the rules were wrote, what was the Intent? Most of the rules are for safety, and some are for limits. A rules committee or class vote will need to decide where to go from here, but I certainly hope whatever the decision, these three tractors are included in a class near us. We pulled that 1066 with the red lights. We just finnished building it the night before Wisner. Yes the rear half needs to go on a diet. Jake had the hitch down to 17" and it was still a tough drive. I hope they make the ruling soon so we know what kind of a diet to go with. The Ulmers put on a great show and it was an honor and privilege to pull on the same stage as them, even if we were a long ways back. They are very inovative, not cheaters.
I like when people are given the opportunity to voice their opinions, and I appreciate this site. I wish if you want to express your opinion, you would not be chicken to put your name on a message. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner
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Ozzy
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If they are legal then Free The CRAZY TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His rear end housing is still there................... This all sounds awfully subjective...... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Pullinfan4255
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After reading the OTTPA rule book and this thread I have came to a solution that will make everyone happy and is completely within the rulebook. Ulmers can take a complete clutch/transmission housing and mount it directly on their front weight bracket this way there is no doubt that the entire housing is there and they still get the front end weight benefit. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Greg
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Perfect solution. I wish I was smart as you. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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LSS Puller
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That is hilarious |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Fine Tuning
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Actually split the housing in half, bolt one section on the middle rack each side
and we are back to square on the weight position advantage. 
|
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Registered: 09/03/2010 Posts: 393 |
More popcorn! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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$$$$
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I say to even up the class just go full component that way everyone is out a lot of money, instead of just the ones playing catch up. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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sensible
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That, sir, sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea!
That way you'd have a chassis that is universal, easy to service, and is worth something to a broader market when you want to sell. Queue the whiners, purists and haters........ |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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.02
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I need a beer to wash all this, and the popcorn down! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Another Puller!
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Plus the component will be a cheaper build then the OEM cast! |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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As a puller myself that is attempting to build a tractor to fit into a light class, having to use OEM castings does cost more money... As you have to build every thing else with lighter materials. Not sure if I totally agree with components rear ends as the being allowed however. As these are supposed to be tractors and not trucks or something in between.
When the fans that actually know what a tractor is supposed to look like come in the pits and they see a truck or skidder rear end in the machine instead it is somewhat misleading If weight classes had some allowances lets say if you have OEM rear-end, and Transmissions then you can run 300# more then maybe it could even the class out for the transition. As not everyone is going to be able to afford to make that change right away plus it may keep the classes somewhat even for awhile, lets face it truck and tractor pulling is fighting to stay alive with the smaller fan base then NASCAR we still have in this nation combined with outside influences such as EPA,and government oversights. It would be awesome if all the major organizations such as LUCAS/PPL, NTPA , Outlaws could sit down at the table and agree for the sake of the future of the sport that some common rules need be developed in the common classes. This is the only way that this sport can keep growing and maybe someday could have major events in all the states instead half of the nation. This is just my two cents |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Bud Wiser
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It you notice NTPA and PPL have almost the same rules in all their classes. LSS,Open SS,, TWD, Mini, PS, and PPL mods can hook in NTPA Unl. Mod call.. It's the Outlaws that run different rules. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Greg
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Just the opposite is what Outlaws has done. Several of their classes have rules that allow the vehicles of that class to fit only in Outlaw class. Vehicles built to fit PPL or NTPA class do not fit. Lss, Unllss, and pro stock and mod are few of those classes. A lot has been said and written about how these rules limit breakage and expense. I assume this to be true. These rules also limit PPL and NTPA pullers from competing at Outlaw pulls on open dates or at pulls in own back yard and possibly winning portion of purse. It also keeps Outlaw pullers from being competitive in close to same class at PPL or NTPA event in own backyard. So different viewpoints of sanctioning bodies as to what is best for them will not yield cooperation. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Farmal 566
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It's been a while since I have reviewed the rule differences pertaining to the outlaws. However, if memory serves me correctly, aren't the outlaw rules designed to keep more parity in the classes, and also with expense in mind? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Pullers funny
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Myself I'm glad to se the outlaws sticking to there rules it keeps the heritage of tractor pulling going .A log skidder impersanation cant spell that word of a 1066 Sucks its not a tractor let outlaws have there real tractors and the rest have threre Super stock skidders.That shouldn't be called a tractor to start with |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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sensible
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Pullers funny.......someday you will grow up and understand the true benefit of the "skidder" tractor as you call them.
Until then, keep smashing your head against the concrete wall, and keep telling yourself that spending exorbitant amounts of money on custom one off parts for that cast tractor, as well as shaving the crap out of castings (which must surely be safe!) to make the class are really intelligent ideas. The rest of us will progress (as modern society usually does) and find new ways to do things, which the likes of you will pick up on in about another 40 years or so. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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LSS Puller
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I am about to slam my head into the wall with all the people saying "just let them run component!" Outlaw has this class, it is called the Unlimited Light Super. Dont get your panties in a wad because they use slightly different names for their classes than the NTPA or PPL.
It is pretty simple, if you still have an ag rearend or just want to run an ag rearend then run LSS and follow their rules. If you want to run a component, run the ULSS. And I am an NTPA guy (who hopes to be taken over by PPL). |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Ummm ok
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So outlaws should do away with mods, ULSS, DSS,, and pro stocks because they are "skidder" classes? |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Pullers funny
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No mods the name suits the class ullss well it does to unlimited do what ever you want, And then the diesel ss shouldn't even exist if they are a skidder they need to be in the ullss if they are a tractor the ss tractor class that's a simple solution But at least the real fans of of tractor pulling can watch the hot farm ,profarm and the largest growing class in the nation llss |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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no way
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If being a REAL FAN of tractor pulling is only watching hot farm, pro farm and llss pulling with there smoke barely standing out the pipe and there slow tire speed you can count me out. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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O-in-ks
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Here is the rest of the story. I was at Wisner all weekend, Thursday to Sunday. I was in the pit area most of the time, at the Ulmers tractors and trailer. I was with Mark Friday morning when Doug shows up about a protest, somebody had cell phone pics of the Comet. But all weekend nobody admitted anything about a protest. As Mark and Doug looked at the Weapon and the Comet Doug claimed they were unsafe. Nothing was said about any cheating. The subject had nothing to do about components or cast housings, it was about some bracing that was missing-a safety concern, was said bracing ever on either tractor, don't know. Doug was worried that without said bracing the tractors could break in half with tranny failure. Phone calls were made to the previous owner of the Comet and nothing was settled. I was 5' away from the conversation. I never said a word. You can learn more by listening. I've been around this sport for 50 years and had a good idea what they were saying. Both men were polite and calm. Late in the conversation another puller was present, but I was there for the duration. It is well known that a tractor with 3 or 4 chargers will dominate a class of single charger tractors. Diesel or Alky skill, power, gearing, tire pressure, drawbar height, and balance is a winning combination. Ulmers tractors have all of these. When Doug, Mark & Tyler read this they will know who wrote it. Who has the right to judge anybody else? There will be no other response from me, O-in-ks |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Outlaw Watcher
|
I don't know what story your telling that Doug didn't already explain in his letter..Now I don't have a dog in the hunt, but if you think they shouldn't be judged by the rest of there competitors your owe so wrong, there the ones that had the prize money pulled out of there pockets... |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Face in crowd
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Money pulled out of their pockets? Those other tractors are huge underdogs. Sure the extra weight on the nose helps, but some LSS puller sitting at home thinking that he would have won first place money all season long, that guy is delusional. Kinda like Northern Iowa showing up to play Ohio State, losing by 40, and getting pissed off because Urban Meyer played an ineligible punter. |
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Re: Turmoil in Wisner PERFECT SOLUTION!!
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Outlaw Watcher
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I don't care if they pull a lawn mower in the same class with them, if they were cheating they will be judged by there peers and held accountable.. And yes Hilary it is wrong to cheat and lie and take money that's not yours! |
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