12:11:35am, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
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Eager to share
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Fan
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I was wondering why Ken Couch wasn't eager to share that he has an international engine in his tractor after his win on Saturday afternoon? Is he ashamed or is the fair board ashamed to share so they don't disgust the fans? |
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Re: Eager to share
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Not Relevant Anymore
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Since It's more than likely a Hypermax block and assembled by Schnitker's with billet parts with a billet pump and a non oem turbo I wouldn't call it a International motor. |
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Fan
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Schnitker block. |
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Better Yet
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Awesome I'm glad there are more shops doing there own blocks. |
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Peter T.
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Fan, you may want to just go and watch antiques if you want engines that match sheet metal. Sorry thats just how it is now days. If I hurt your feelings sorry. |
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Fan
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What a shameful disgrace .Sorry some of us still have have a little pride and brand loyalty |
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966
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Get over it there's alot of cross dressing in tractor pulling more than your little mind can ever realize |
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Fan, There is absolutely nothing wrong with brand loyalty! the only thing wrong is you trying to start crap on here. There are no rules for what you have to say in an interview after the pull, he thanked the fans, sponsors and fairboard just like every single other driver. No other driver went into details on what brand or manufacturer they used for blocks, turbos, fuel pumps, cams etc. Every driver has the right to say or not say whatever they want. Nothing happened, absolutely no reason to start bs and muddy up this great page. It should be used as an avenue of great conversation not just bitching. |
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Fan
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So your alright with Gay marriage and all the rules.Obama made, Now are you proud of a Ford with a Ih in it what a disgrace |
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WOW Fan WOW |
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Registered: 04/06/2008 Posts: 974 |
It will be interesting 5 years down the road. I think the cube limit in light pro will help keep them in check but the more secrets builders discover they can uncover with head flow and allow for bigger chargers yet look out! The same can be said about limited pro and there head flow but the 4.1 will somewhat keep the class in check. I am sure the debate about whether or not to allow components in these two classes will be a long fought debate for the future. These two are certainly fan friendly classes and I just hope the organizations whatever they decide in the future don't hurt the classes. |
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Anonymous User
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Yea, Antiques more and more are using aftermarket blocks and heads also. So sorry, can't watch us either. |
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Dear fan
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What's your opinion on a component chassis? None of those parts are oem. Does that grind your gears as well? |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I actually mentioned the same thing in the media area and almost nobody knew it. Everyone assumed it was a green block under the hood.
Some people are fine with cross dressing a tractor and some aren't. Some are fine with Billet or Recast blocks and some aren't. You can call me old fashioned but personally I think the hood and the block should match. I don't care what parts are in the block, or what frame it has, I care that a Deere is powered by a Deere. Most knowledgeable fans that I mentioned it to felt the same way. Most people I spoke with also thought it was ridiculous to run Green sheetmetal in a class that already has too many green tractors to begin with. There's a reason that Hart's don't have the same following that Carlton Cope has, yet they both run Massey sheetmetal. For me it's pretty hard to cheer for a black Massey covered Big Block Deere, and even though I'm a John Deere guy, I always prefer when an off brand wins but I just can't cheer for a fake off brand. Farmer's are still some of the most brand loyal people in the US. Pulling has taken something that was a huge asset and advantage for them and just thrown it in the garbage. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,576 |
It boils down to we long ago exceeded the limitations of OEM components. In no other motorsport at the highest levels do we see components that rolled off the assembly line nor should we expect it. My thought is that the Couch family along with the Harts (not to forget the two Molines also) made powerplant choices that made sense to them, completely within the rule set they were handed. If not for an improved block rule and the allowance for sheetmetal/brand changes it is obvious to see the color of Pro Stock long term. I applaud those that keep up the good fight with regard to maintaining sheetmetal/block in corporate lines but I am sure not going to demean anyone as to how they're spending their money to compete. We can't deny the popularity of the regional classes for that OEM "integrity" like 4.1 and Light Pro; at what point do we recognize now-right now- that, 5-10 years down the road, when those classes find another 20-30% more horsepower that we'll be in the same conversation with them that we're having with Pro Stock? Bryan Lively - 
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Pullers have always made powerplant choices that made sense to them. I'm also not going to demean anyone as to how they're spending their money either. My issue is not with the pullers, nor is it with their choice of powerplant. My issue is strictly with the rule. In my opinion cross dressing a tractor should not be allowed. I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of the rules as they're written. I'm simply against the rule.
I believe that if you take an unbiased look at the rule with regards to whether its good or bad for the sport as a whole it becomes clear that the rule is not a net gain, rather a loss. It hurts the sports integrity, it hurts the sports true diversity, and most importantly it hurts the sports relatability. The loss of relatability is the biggest factor that will hurt this sport in the future. I also believe the rule is a BandAid to the real problem; the other poor rules in the class, the most predominate one is that the cubic inch limit is much too high. In the sport of pulling the cure to a bad rule is to put another bad rule on top of it. Last but not least lets take a look at European Pro Stock: they have a good set of rules: 510 CID limit, they have OEM mandates for both head and block, and yet they make incredibly horsepower. It's not by coincidence they have some factory support. They've chosen a much more sustainable rule set. Again, this isn't about the pullers that are playing 100% within the rules. This is simply about a bad rule itself. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Registered: 05/24/2013 Posts: 380 |
Jake, I'm not a big fan of cross dressing either. However I'm not sure if you look at the rules without bias that you can completely point at the cubic inch limits and determine they are the problem. The cylinder pressure seems to me to be the largest problem as block failures are occurring from 680 cubes down to 505 cubes. In my simple view the root problem is the technology to build horsepower is growing faster than the technology to keep it contained. |
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 97 |
I can't disagree with what you said Bryan, but I, as a fan, am becoming much less interested in the classes that allow components and cross-dressing of sheet metal and am becoming much more interested in classes where the engine, drive train, and chassis match the sheet metal. I respect those who have the money to play the game and play the way they want to play it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or spend my money on tickets for it. Just my opinion. And again as Jake mentioned above, I don't blame anyone for building to and using the rules to their advantage, just don't like the rules. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2017 05:56AM by Deerefever. |
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RED light Pro
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I agree with Jake here as a puller and fan I hate the any sheet metal any engine rule, I have no problem with recast blocks/heads etc in the big ( super/pro ) classes because they for the most part are just stronger versions or copies of the original, I also have no problem with component chassis in those same mentioned classes. I'm sure this is why classes like Limited pro 4.1, light pro and light limited supers are so popular now because for the most part they have a good variety of color in the class and they are true to their sheet metal, I just hope they don't head down this same path in future |
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lewis
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Well one way you can look at tt we still get to watch some real tractors pull and we get to watch some tractor imitation Log Skidders pull so whats all the fuss about with the skidders on what hood or engine they run. I could just here the announcer at the Farm show explaining how our next tractor up tonight extremely armed and dangerous started out as a pay loader at our local rock quarry and is now carrying the IH logo and sheet metal I'm with you all the way Jake you have to go to a Grand Nat event now to se a pull as good as the old county fairs had back in the 80s |
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Red motor
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I'm pretty sure the block that couch is running is the e-burg block which is a recast version of a sbjd... |
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yup
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You are right on the recast block. I love how everyone thinks they know what is under the hood. Did any of you actually go look? As I recall that was not a cross flow cylinder head.....
And Lewis, why don't you shut up about Log Skidders already. We're sick of hearing it. They're here to stay, get over it. You don't have to worry about them in your class. |
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lewis
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Yup my opinion is worth as much as yours I have noticed youve not told Jake to shut up .And I'm not saying your not right a few skidders are here to stay if you've not noticed the dying crouds were have you been theres a lot of brand loyal fans out there that that don't go watch anymore because a skider aint a brand its plain old theft by deception now surely you've noticed the dying skidder classes did I say skidder 3 times or 4 Tractor pulling is not the same for a lot of people and it shows. Now the rules are made and I don't blame you or anyone else for going that route if that's the class you want to pull in but don't call a black horse red |
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LSS Puller
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It is pretty well known knowledge that it is an IH in Cotton Pickin Deere. |
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Peter T.
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Sounds to me that everyone who is worried about what is under the hood already knows. So why bring it up if you already know? |
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Interested.
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The biggest problem that I see with this, is that we are talking about it. Truthfully, how many people on here, that are expressing dislike of "cross dressing", knew that the Cotton Pickin Deere had an IH engine in it? "Cross dressing" and Components have brought different colors back to pulling, in class that have been red and green for years. The average spectator has no idea if a tractor is component or not, nor do they care. They don't care what engine is the the tractor, they care what the tractor looks like. They show up to a tractor pull to watch their favorite brand tractor pull, and hopefully win. If the announcer and the puller doesn't mention it, most people in the crowd would think its all "factory" components. If we want to grow the sport of pulling we have to grow our fan base. Farmer's are our biggest crowd of fans and as said before, farmer's are some of the most brand loyal people. And the more brands show up, the more fans we will have. We need to quit living in the past and start looking at the future of pulling. The facts are that old cast tractor rear ends are getting hard to find and more expensive everyday, not mention the reliable at the horsepower they are putting to them, and that is why they have went component chassis . The same goes for the engines, core engines keep getting harder and harder to find, eventually we will have to switch to a more plentiful engine or build recast or billet parts. |
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Re: Eager to share
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
So what happens when the brand loyal farmers and fans finally find out that it's not a Deere or an IH under the hood? Will they still cheer for just a hood? Or will they feel like the whole sport is fake and that it's gotten out of hand. Or that it's so over-the-top that they just can't relate anymore? Do you really think that in this age of information that we can keep cross dressing tractors a secret?
Too exotic will drive fans away. Look at F1 vs NASCAR: F1 doesn't have near the following in the US that NASCAR has. Look at NASCAR before the Car of Tomorrow, when a Ford or Chevy were more than just a sticker on a generic body. Brand loyalty was huge. It was much more popular before the body change rules and becasue of the rule change it lost a little more relatability and brand loyalty. Imagine if NASCAR competitors all ran the exact same generic engine or worse yet a Ford powered Chevy or vise versa. Brand loyalty would completely disappear, as would the fanbase. You can't keep it a secret. You can't fool the forever. When they finally find out they just won't be able to relate to what then see on the track. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Eager to share
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Interested.
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I'm not saying to fool them, just don't talk about it. It won't be as big of issue as we are making it. The Cotton Pickin Deere didn't have any less fans because he has an IH engine That's because it was not talked about and most didn't knew any different. It is no different than a funny car. They have Toyota, Dodge, Chevy, or Ford bodies on them, under that body they all have a tube chassis and some variation of a Hemi. Fans don't care, they just want to see their favorite brand, favorite car, or favorite driver win.
The reason F1 is more popular than Nascar, is because the body of the car gives the fan something to relate to, like sheet metal does for tractor pulling. Most fans (Nascar, sprint car, tractor puling ,drag racing...) have no idea what engine they are using The engines in Nascar today are a purpose designed engine and the brands are almost identical in design to each other. Those engines don't interchange in anyway with anything that was an actual production engine. How is that any different than running a different brand engine, yet fans still don't care. |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Exactly my point - F1 is not popular in the US because it's not relatable. It looks nothing like a car and it's just too exotic. NASCAR is losing popularity because it's getting less and less like our cars and it's getting more and more generic. The last holdout is that the engines are still manufactured by their respective manufactures (even if they are one-off engines). If that ever goes away then brand loyalty is completely gone and the sport will become even less and less popular. Allowing any hood has simply made the class more generic, i.e. Beyond Limits, Wheat Fed, Full Metal Jacket are just BBJD like every other BBJD in the class. That's generic, and that doesn't encourage ANY brand enthusiasm.
As classes get too exotic both fans and pullers alike turn back to classes like the LLSS, Light Pro, and 4.1 Limited Pro. There's a reason why those are the fastest growing classes in the sport, they are still classes that the average farmer/fan can relate to. Relatability is the key to our motorsport and we are losing that. It's like bleeding to death from 1000 paper cuts. Cross Dressing tractors is just one more paper cut. As for Cotton Pickin Deere: when people around me found out about it's powerplant it lost some fans. People will eventually find out. They always do. "I'm not saying to fool them, just don't talk about it" A lie of omission is still a lie. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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I see it both ways. In my opinion in nhra nascar and f1 a lot of their fan base relates to a favorite driver. If earnhardt Jr drove a Chevy with a Dodge engine with a Toyota emblem most people would not care and he would still have just as much following. A lot of casual fans of pulling do not know the difference nor care. I feel thathat relatibility to a driver would help with growing the sport and adding fan base. Yes the true fan likes brand loyalty and knows most every aspect of the engines and setups and not putting jd in Massey but that is where we are at with the rules and everything. I consider myself a true fan and take friends to pulls that are not a true fan bUT a casual fan and I see they could care less about what engine is in the jd or whatever. They get behind more the tractor and driver. Just my opinion. |
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Posts: 744 |
The fastest growing classes are those because you can do more with less money.
If you could build and maintain a LSS, DSS or PS for same money as a LLSS, this class wouldn't be on anyone's radar. I don't mean that as a knock against LLSS. And any sheet metal any motor is only happening on such a small level it isn't hurting a thing. Just as many IH guy cheered on cotton picking deers as deere fans that didn't. Many fans at Tomah and BG especially like seeing a change in color in the all deers PS class even if it's not true change. This isn't anywhere close to nascars COT. Fans are showing up in bigger numbers to a lot of pulls and if the attendance has reverted it would be due to economy or management of the pull. Plenty of brand loyalty in all classes despite these rules. COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2017 01:08PM by AV. |
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Red block
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Schauberts "the Hunted" has had a IH block for like 3 years already, Couch was a friend and customer of D&R for years in fact they used to run a pair of indentical IH pro stocks, I would bet Couch had a E-burg 9000 block, I think Schnitker was involved with the development of that block... |
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Posts: 744 |
Well many got a good look while they were working in the parking lot at NFMS. COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] |
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 761 |
I personally don't like the any sheetmetal rule, but I wonder why everyone gets all excited about it in tractors, but there is never mention of truck classes that have been that way for a long time, including the diesel truck class where fans are very brand/engine loyal. Some of the diesel truck guys even advertise it in their trucks name.
IMHO, if any pulling class is like F1 it would be the mods, the only way they relate to a tractor is the rear tire. Is their popularity with the fans dying? Are the regional economods with hoods more popular than the multi-engine GN/Champions Tour vehicles? |
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My 2 cents. I am a farmer, and i also sell a particular brand of farm equipment for a living. As you might expect I am very brand loyal. I follow along on this page, read the puller magazine, poke around on other web pages, have a few personal friends that pull, and I attend as many pulls in the summer as I can. I would still consider myself an average fan, I try to stay educated about the sport I love, but I am far far from knowing as much as I wish I did. I think some people in the sport tend to under estimate what the average fan actually does know. And while I might not know for sure what power plant is in every tractor, if it's a class that has a history of mixed breeds and it is an off color tractor, then I'm already sceptical. I dunno all else aside I guess I'm a fan of the hood and power plant matching. |
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OK2NV
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I like to think of myself as a casual fan. I attend the NFMS and couple other pulls at local county fairs every year and that is about it but I have been involved in motorsports for longer than I care to mention. One thing we and other friends and promoters talk about is how most forms of competition vehicles have gotten away from brand identity. Take mud racing for example, most of your higher end vehicles in the midwest, northeast, and south central do not resemble any factory type vehicle and their sport is dwindling. Now go to the southeast where they have stricter rules in place about bodies and their sport is flourishing. Why is that? Because the fan attending the event can recognize the vehicle competing. In the pulling wold the casual fan (average Joe) could care less about what is under the hood as long as the sheetmetal resembles something they can recognize and bond with. The casual fan comes for the noise and excitement of the show not to hear somebody arguing.
In my opinion to grow the sport we need to reduce classes instead of increasing them. I keep going back to the casual fan, but they (me) do not know the difference in all the classes there are now. I understand the difference in alcohol versus diesel but why have so many diesel classes? In the world I come from the only time a new class was started is when someone couldn't out cheat someone else and they kept lobbying for a class they could win in. We used to call that a "I can't beat a (fill in blank) class. Anything that confuses the casual fan is the floating finish but that is another topic for another time. |
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Re: Eager to share
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Tommy Jon
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Bob7337,I agree with your opinion.:BACK IN THE DAY" tractors had to pull a long slower heavy load most of the way.Had more to do with power,torque,fuel,weight,traction tires and governor.Not all new fangled stuff is good for all,some yes,--ALL NO!!!!!!! Electronics is awesome stuff,but we are losing our thinking,speaking and seat of the pants feel. In MHO,there should be some of both style classes,the sleds are very capable if used correctly. We are on the verge of killing people at the indoors pull with all the speed and HP. Just a matter of time till it happens some where. I am not a negative key board guy,I pull with many times the power my tractors came with and push the limits a lot,--however I do want to live another day to compete again.I see many places have slowed down some of the more,(I use the phrase loosely) farm stock type classes. Thirty mph passes with 3 - 4 thousand hp is great,but so many are all "cookie Cutter" type.In the name of progress and technology we have to more forward,but some of ole farm boyz like the slower for several reasons. Pull on and be safe,--another season is just around the corner. |
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
That is how a whole lot of us feel
Slow down and pull the whole pass and load it on the trailer u |
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Re: Eager to share
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just perhaps
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This cross dressing has been in NTPA pulling since, oh what, about the early '80's.
I'm referring to the FWD's. For some reason that I may have forgotten, those trucks were allowed to install a different manufacturer's brand of engine. Perhaps it had to do with a pair of International bodied FWD's owned and operated by Carl Bidwell and Bud Jaske. Maybe some others I am not remembering off hand. Obviously, IH did not make a V-8 engine that was economically converted into a high horsepower competitive powerplant. After all, the tough IH workhorse 345 cubed V-8 engine was the biggest IH pickup engine offered. Perhaps that is the reason why the class, in order to provide a wider choice of body styles, was allowed to utilize the popular lower cost engine to build of the day. If the puller choose that route, the rules stated that the engine make was to be stated on the truck. Bidwell named his "Chevynational" which obviously said it all. Stating a different engine brand on the different brand sheetmetal sure upset the FWD fans and a few pullers of this young class. Without looking in a rulebook of today, I assume that rule was dropped as I do not see any FWD advertising its cross dressed exotic engine that may or may not relate to today's body style. As a result, full fledged body brand style builds a customer, meaning the pulling spectator, base who they like to cheer for. I believe that is what the sport should also be about. Unfortunately, that is what is missing in the TWD's today with so many T-buckets. I completely understand why a puller wants to use a T-bucket but it sure does not have much appeal to me. So with the acceptance and popularity of cross dressing for about a quarter century in those two truck classes, perhaps the powers to be felt that could be tranlated into the tractor classes and today's diesel FWD's. |
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Maybe I am getting to old. Back in 70s there were fewer classes and most people could tell what tractor was pulling. I am not a fan of this drag racing tractor pulling. I know the first thing someone is going to say is if you don't like it stay home and guess what I already do. The people in the stands used to rally enjoy a pulloff , . But Lets face it the component tractors should be called single engine modified with hood class. I said my 2 cents worth |
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Similar to stock car racing very few if any parts would fit todays cars.First thing they are rear wheel drive.Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn't really apply.anymore Although I love pulling there was more fun and more paticipants when it wasn't so expensive.I won over $500 at a fair pull 50 years ago with probably 160H.P and was elated.I was told many of the large pulls with high dollar component and lots of H.P. get $2000 or less to win.On those tractors with 5+ engines its got to cost a lot to make a pass.I have a friend that worked for a top fuel team and it cost several thousand for a less than 4 second run. |
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