Light Pro Turbos March 23, 2018 04:23AM
So what's this I hear about a future turbo rule? Is this good or bad?
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 23, 2018 04:51AM
Best way to ruin a good thing.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 23, 2018 05:15AM
What turbo rule is being proposed?
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 12:48AM
Rules are a good thing. This class could grow if there was a few limits. Its about already out of hand for the average Farmer like myself. Just my opinion.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 01:20AM
more rules just make a class more expensive!!!!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 01:28AM
They have all the rules in place they need
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 01:39AM
That's not necessarily true. A "turbo" size limit may very well cost less $$$$ and keep the HP level lower, which can mean everything about the engine and driveline could cost less to build and maintain. 1500 HP parts should cost less than 2500 HP parts wouldn't you think??
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 01:59AM
Everything in the engine will cost the same and the turbo cost will skyrocket.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 06:36AM
Have you priced a pro stock turbo lately? No limits there.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 06:57AM
Yep

Have you priced the fuel system it takes to turn one? That’s your limit
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 07:32AM
To me, the main reason this came up is the horsepower the class is starting to make and what it CAN lead up to. 3000 hp has already been reached with 5"+ turbos. That is known. Do i believe that you need this much horsepower? Not really. But it sure helps if you can use it at 8500 lbs. Thats truly the beauty of this class. However this horsepower can cause for more people to beg for what 95% of Light Pro pullers do not want. Component chassis. The argument I don't like thats being thrown out now is that "Light pros make more up than pro stocks did when they went component." Pro Stocks weigh 10,000 lbs. Former pro stock pullers who now pull Light Pros will tell you how huge of a difference that is. However, I would like to hear more people's opinion on that. What's trying to be prevented is finding out what weaknesses this power can find and give the component topic more leverage. To the turbo topic There is no proposed size limit as of now but the general idea is a 4.5 exhaust wheel limit. I am on the fence and really don't know what to think. So I am willing to listen to any arguments. I'm only 21 years old and in no way acting like I have a say or know what's best. That's for higher powers to decide. I'm just putting in my .02. To me it's all about preventing components from ever being considered more than they are now.


Collin Birkholz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2018 07:44AM by lil' 1456.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 11:31AM
This agenda idea was proposed by some region 3 people in the fall, and was soundly defeated, just as the component agenda was. Now someone in Wisconsin is dredging this up again. No reason to fix something that isn't broken. This limit is not wanted. To limit someone just because you are scared of a chassis change is not reasonable. There currently are 3 WPI/NTPA classes offered that have a turbo limit, if you aren't comfortable with the pace of progress then maybe a change in divisions is needed for those looking for a limit.
Limited classes obviously aren't what the pullers are looking for in region 2. Otherwise the super farm and limited pros would be much larger than they currently are.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 05:50PM
Make them run 18.4-38 tires.
Bias ply
Then the big turbo's are a waste of money.
Less traction, break less parts, save tons of money
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 02:15AM
No reason for a turbo limit if you want that there are plenty of other classes to play in. What do you think got this class to where it is now
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 02:30AM
People couldn't afford the Pro stocks. Make pulling affordable or it will be gone in 10 years.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 04:00AM
what is the proposed turbo size? Who will enforce the rule? Up to the pullers is my guess ...
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 04:33AM
Make pulling affordable for who?
I think pulling is plenty affordable now.,Build what you can afford and go pull.
Winning on the other hand cost money, and always will.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 05:14AM
Light Pro's are just the Pro Stock class from the Ag Rear End Days !!!! Give them 5 years and they will be the same cost to build as a Pro Stock !!! Some of the Light Pro guys are already wanting Component Chassis and Billet Injection Pumps !!! Great Quote by What is affordable = "Build what you can afford and go pull.
Winning on the other hand cost money, and always will"
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 05:41AM
Have heard the idea of g trim turbo only.

Probably not the dumbest idea. The class doesn't need to be 3000 hp to be entertaining. It would cap it some but allow options to still try different things.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 05:53AM
I agree, that's a good idea. The light pro has been pretty fast at picking up numbers. If something isn't done, it will be the fastest dying class. That should keep the need for component chassis at bay for now too.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 06:39AM
the only thing that will cause the class to die is forcing everyone to buy a spec turbo that cost twice what they are using now. Then anytime they want to upgrade or they have a failure they are spending all that extra every time. Class numbers always go down when you change rules to help a couple guys that couldn't keep up anyways. Because they cant afford these rules they wanted changed.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 07:48AM
3000 HP requires cast rears to have a lot of $$ spent on them plus the 8500 weight requires a lot of $$ to be spent on them. When all that $$$$ is spent,.. you still have a cast rearGrinning,...........Components are way cheaper and way safer in the long run(fact not fiction),.....and that is the point of putting rules in ,.....you know,.. to help it in the "long run" isn't it??Confused

You'll see some pretty big crashes in this class this year,... if it keeps going with OEM rears,...IMO.

I'm sure most of the current class members will dismiss the component suggestion,....however,.. have you ever seen a person advocate legislation for the betterment of the class from looking down the hood of their own tractor???Smoking
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 01:27PM
Jake... You need a like button!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 03:02PM
Why do you need components??? What exactly is breaking so much that it is so costly????? I'm not in the class but enlitent me please so I can better undetstand
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 24, 2018 03:32PM
What’s the real reason this subject even comes up? It’s fear, fear of the unknown, fear someone has something you don’t or can’t afford at this moment. Everyone that wants to change rules. Always to what they have or want. We are like a bunch of law makers that can’t even enforce the laws we got. Then lay blame to not having enough laws and this is always for the good of the people or sport. One thing for sure you can’t stop progress. As far as costs, the rules will have that go up like an over sized SF turbo. All I can say, we’ve been running different wheels ( air, exhaust, Columbus, wimer, Hyper) for years right along with the G trim. 4.1 to 4.5’s. I can tell you there has been no issues, no one running away with anything and no rearends flying apart ( just needled that’s it ). You may make big numbers on the Dyno that’s worth bragging about, but on the track. You can not make more HP then you can consume. The bigger charger have been out there since class was started, that’s a fact. Leave class alone.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 01:55AM
Leave the class alone--BEST class to come along in a long time. If you can't afford to be in it go 466 or sf don't try to ruin something for your selfish agenda !!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 06:56AM
My name is Kenny Bryan, I pull a light pro D 21, it used to be a pro stock . In the mid 90's the pullers said the same thing: "If you cant afford to pull, do something else" or "you can't hold back technology". All most word for word like the above posts. Look at the pro stock division today: COMPONENT CHASSY, BILLET PUMPS, HIGH DOLLAR TURBOS, and a lot of breakage. If something is not done, it will be a real light weight pro stock class. If you cant afford to pull in the pro stock class today, can you afford to pull in the light pro class in a few years?
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 07:39AM
You are not even remembered tell close in that statement. The reason that class got as you say out of hand. Is because rules kept changing. Not cause rules left a lone. It would get out of hand if you start with billet heads billet pumps etc. keep the same and roll with it.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 12:21PM
Coming from a guy who has hooked like what 20 times in this class, and went out to pull with a cracked block at Greenville, then tossed it out. Tell us why you boycotted the pro class years ago? Your doomsday perdiction about the heavy pro was incorrect, they have a great class today. Still have plenty of pullers, just as the light pro will have.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 02:35PM
Supporter, I'm not sure of how many times I've hooked, but I was 4th in points in 2014. I quit the Pro Stock class because our motor was 100 cubes short of the class cu. in. limit. My dooms day prediction was if components were allowed, the Big Block Deeres would rule. And the block thing, we had something new and didn't want to wait a year to try it. .
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 26, 2018 01:36AM
Big block deeres rule the PS class not because of cubic inches but because of cubic dollars...
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 25, 2018 07:06AM
to components needed you should not build for this class-- you do not really know what it is; other than keyboard if you want to component something do the 4.1 with sf engine heavier and more cubes and ruin it ==not 540 c.i. Lt Pro
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 26, 2018 02:44AM
Amen to the not changing ,if you want to run a limited turbo class run super Farm, 466 , or 4.1. Turbo limits get expensive, as everyone is trying to run the same thing and get the last 10 horsepower, we don't need components in this class, injection pump is the biggest limiting factor leave the class alone seems like every time a class starts growing somebody wants to change the rules, if you can't afford to be in the class run something else that you can afford plain and simple
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 26, 2018 12:09PM
Check out Ntpa tech page maybe bring light to the subject
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 12:06AM
Must be someone from northern Wisconsin that can't keep up apparently , leave the rules alone, we have limited turbo classes , run them if you want to run a limited Turbo, the light pro class rules were in place when everybody built and they knew what the rules were then , quit changing things just because you don't want to advance
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 01:29AM
Man I totally agree, leave it alone. We don't need another "dyno" class!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 02:07AM
Too late on the dyno class part. How do you think they learned they can turn a 5" turbo?

All of these classes with 1 turbo are going to the dyno. DSS are now going to the dynos. That won't end either, they will keep going if there is something bigger or better to try each year to stay on top.

I liked the g trim turbo idea, not necessarily in favor of a box turbo for the class. I like the openness of this class vs the other classes that have set turbo sizes.

But going over 3000 hp is not a good idea for the longevity of this class. The sled will stop the class at 320 ft in 13 seconds if its 3000 hp or 2600 hp.


They won't stop going to the dyno either if it's limited. Dyno is just part of it, if you want an edge with HP and torque going into each season.

There will be better injectors to try, better pump to try, better intake, better head etc, etc, etc....


COO for OTTPA

www.outlawpulling.com


www.truck-specialties.com

Schaeffer Oil Representative

[www.schaefferoil.com]
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 03:31AM
AV, how is going over any magical HP number not good. Give specific reasons why, then those in the class may come to understand. Where is the catastrophic failure at?
Where is the mass exodus out of the class. Can't rule out those who want to compete, you will only make it even more costly in the long run. As you stated, pumps, injectors, even better turbo wheel designs will continue even with a limit. So what is gained? Thanks for your input in the light pro class.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 04:04AM
Personally I think the cast chassis has it's limits once that HP or Torque number is reached adding more cost to the competitors.

We ditched our 706 rear end when we wanted to go north of 3000 hp. Could we have kept it? Sure but I wanted to spend the money once.


I have no idea what the magic number is for the light pros, but as they get higher in HP there will be a lot of added cost to all to try to obtain that number and compete.

Right now the leaders in the class are chasing a HP number on the dyno and buying new parts to be first, with the current rules.

At NFMS, the talk was how much power some tractors gained with the new turbo. I know if 3 guys that have now ordered that turbo and are headed to the dyno.

That will never stop. So pick your poison looking down the road 5 years. Only so many competitors will want to chase the high hp number for so long. Then you will have others that will do something else since they don't want to. It's happened many times over the years of pulling.

Buying a new turbo every year is not cheap. And the old one is worthless to most in the class. Then there will be better pumps to buy to feed the new newer turbo.

I like the class and a simple G trim type turbo rule does not take away what the class is or can be either.

If 4 guys in a region all have 400 more hp than the rest does that make a good show?

This class being cheap is out of the bag already. And it's the competitors decision, it's their money. But a field of 10-15 of these tractors that are all still within 200 hp is entertaining. How do we keep that a possibility for the whole class (and new people) moving down the road?

If the numbers will be there for the next 5 years and have 10-15 guys any night that can win, then don't do a thing.


COO for OTTPA

www.outlawpulling.com


www.truck-specialties.com

Schaeffer Oil Representative

[www.schaefferoil.com]
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 02:16AM
Totally agree – no rule changes. The light pro class is growing fine with current rules. Why try to kill a good thing. If you are breaking you’re doing something wrong and your equipment isn’t built right to withstand it but that doesn’t mean components are needed. If you want limits go to a limited class – we don’t need a “dyno class”. A turbo rule is a joke. At 540 cubes with a big turbo i.e., 5” (if you can spin it) go for it, however many tractors will likely perform better with something less and still put a tractor in the top three. Bigger turbo may make more HP but if you can’t use it on the track it’s not worth it. LEAVE THE CLASS ALONE!!!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 03:37AM
I agree the class shows nice steady growth that seems to be sustainable for the foreseeable future. Having said that I wonder what is the limit of HP that can be generated with the current rules. I believe that the PS class in 1985 would never believe what the HP would be in 2018 with virtually their same rules.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2018 03:47AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 04:06AM
The limit with the current ruleset imo is completely dependent on what is allowed with the injection pump and or what advancements are made with the pump to increase its ability to pump more fuel. That is the current limitation.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos March 27, 2018 05:15AM
I believe with the current rules. The threshold is near. 540s north of 25 to 2600 are losing reliability and are short lived. Very high maintenance! Sure you can get more hp but they are not living. Watched many of the top of the class runners melt down several times this past season. Just my 2 cents.
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Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 27, 2018 03:57PM
Rick Austin and DPS are drinking buddies. The guys in Wisconsin aren’t seeing the growth R2 has in numbers. Before you started building for this class there was SF, Limited Pro, Hot Farm, Too Hot To Farm, My tractor Cant Farm etc. Plenty of restricted classes. So back to Rick and DPS, they are drinking beer one night and a local Wisconsin guy says “hey, this class is going to die if we don’t put limits in place”. So now Rick and DPS are freaked out because after all, it’s all about membership. They are forgetting that PPL now offers this class, and maybe they don’t change their rules, now you lose members to the competing organization (aka PPL). Just like society, they have nots are the ones whining. Limiting the turbo will make the class way more expensive, ask people who build turbos. New exhaust wheels will be designed, price will go up and you will still be at 3000HP and the guys that want to win will still be on top. At the end of the day the guy that wants to spend to win will. You had 40 light pros collect points in R2 last year, 40 guys that knew the rules of the class before they joined. Everyone has the right to compete, but winning is not a right. A lot of the guys at the top worked and spent their a$$es off to get to the top. I wonder how Keith Theobald and some of them will feel when they look like ding dongs for allowing this to happen and then lose membership to the PPL. The guys whining knew the rules but now they don’t like the rules and DPS and his drinking buddy Rick are going to take care of their own and not look out for the class as a whole. Leave the class alone! Turbo limits will raise the cost of the turbo to that 10-12k mark. Just like the big 5”+ chargers of the PS class.
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 27, 2018 11:42PM
Please tell me the difference between Light Pro, Light Limited Pro and Limited Pro and do these classes all run under the same rules across the country ? If not why not ?
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 28, 2018 12:51AM
light pro: any turbo, 540 cubes, 8500lbs
light limited: typically limited at 470 cubes and a 3" inlet charger between 7700 and 8500 lbs
limited pro: 4.1" inlet turbo, 640 cubes and 9500lbs.

Each class has some variants to suit the wants/needs of the regions/orgs that they run in
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 28, 2018 02:39AM
Also need to remember big turbos are getting cheaper with all the old Pro Stock turbos out there change the compressor wheel and cover and four or five grand you have a big Turbo rather than 8 to 10 grand for a limited Turbo that will need to be updated every year
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Re: Class Puller March 28, 2018 03:15AM
What kind of crack are you smoking? 1. I highly doubt that anyone who wants to be a top runner is just "going to buy an old prostock turbo and switch wheels and covers" It is not even close to being that simple. 2. What "limited" turbo is is 8-10K? Top of the line 4.1 is $6500.

Right now with the top of the line turbo that was developed this winter costs between $8500 and $11k depending on options. Feel free to call the builders and prove me wrong.

I find it funny how everyone is going on about how expensive a limit will make things. Newsflash.....it already is!!! Every time a bigger turbo is used and more power is made it move the power up higher in the RPM band causing more and more stress on the internals. These will be short lived motors if they have to turn 6500RPM every pass all summer. I suppose that cranks, rods, bearings, pistons, valvetrain and blocks are cheap though? I would venture to guess this is what the Wisconsin guys had in mind bringing this up.
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 28, 2018 05:06AM
You dont even have a clue whats going on with the new turbos that are being
built for the LPS class. It will cause a chain reaction of breakage from the turbo down
and from the clutch back.
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 28, 2018 05:14AM
Nobody is forcing you to run the Big Turbo if you don't want the breakage don't run it, maybe your durability will win the hooks for you with a smaller Turbo , and maybe the Big Turbo will win the hooks for me, works both ways
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Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 28, 2018 03:02PM
Name me just 1 NTPA class that is not limited in the rules. Now really think what I just said before you blow off a quick reply.
That's what I thought. You cannot do it. Because every class is limited. Either by weight, cubic inches, supercharger size or turbo size/pressure stages.
And that includes every class designated "Unlimited". And that also includes your so called open class of Light Pro Stock, which are limited to 8500 pounds and a maximum of 540 cubic inches.

Yes, Lgt PS is being very successful thus far. But look at how much they have progressed in power performance during the past 5 years. With increasing technology, where will that performance factor be in 5 years down the road? That is likely what is concerning the powers to be. Understandably so. So let us keep this class as a long term viable class by implementing rules that limit the power performance from getting so expensive that eventually the class dies like the SSD. Or becomes so expensive like the PS, which started as a budget introductory class but look how expensive the PS's are today with no sight in end. That is likely the concern of WPI, I assume, that they want to address with the current state of the highly successful Lgt PS class which means limiting it some before the class becomes a full fledged out of control class.

And pehaps the Lgt PS are already into that zone. I have not seen in Region 2 for 2 or 3 years, the AC's of Jared Nussbaum, Kenny Bryan and the IH's of the Fleck Family, Dru Gilliland and JD of Bob Campbell. I do not know why they are still not competing but could it be due to the class cost is getting too expensive? Maybe they are broke and contemplating if it is worth spending the $ to rebuild. I do not know there current status.
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40, I repeat 40 collected points in R2 March 29, 2018 12:42AM
Your argument about losing numbers really doesn’t hold a lot of weight. Especially when comparing to the PS class who will have 35+ at the big events. Kinda like the light pro’s at Fort Recovery. The class is fine! This doom and gloom people preach are the ones who don’t want to spend to catch the leaders, and guess what THEY DONT HAVE TO. It’s the same ones preaching doom and gloom about components. If you allow components all the PS guys like Cope and Masterson will jump in. BULL$HIT! They have to decube to 540, so the big block whiners can shut up, they still have to be 540. They have to buy a new pump, new head, new pistons, sleeves, crank, rods, pump and turbo. They have to unload their current 20k dollar billet pump, head, injectors, turbos etc. it would cost way more to convert to the class than just stating where they are at. Again though, a few fear mongers in the class can’t see that. Again, if you want a more “limited” class, go pull SF, Lim Pro, Hot Farm, To hot to Farm, Pro Farm, Classic Super, Won’t Farm, Cant Farm etc. Ole DPS and Rick Austin need to quit drinking the cheap Canadian whiskey and beer. Dave needs to quit worrying about his buddies and put the sport first, but Dave has always put Dave’s wants and needs first. The NTPA board needs to ask if they are ready to lose members to PPL? 40 guys that are running knew what they were getting into, 40 guys that knew other class options were available. The limit will do nothing to the HP and skyrocket the cost of the turbo and all those whiners will still be sucking hind tit because they don’t want to spend money now.
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Re: 40, I repeat 40 collected points in R2 March 29, 2018 01:13AM
You completely missed the point of the previous post. Read it a few more times....slowly.

The man is not saying the class is in trouble currently, or that the numbers are down....currently. His point was strictly about sensible growth and sustainability of the class......something that no puller ususally looks at. It's called having a vision for the future. We are all too short sighted and get caught with our pants down when class gets out of hand (depending on your view of things). This is a great class, quite entertaining, and long overdue. Maybe it is a good plan to seriously consider how not to let it become what some of the other classes have already.
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Sustainability March 29, 2018 03:30AM
It is sustainable how it is. This class is for guys who don’t want to spend to run as hard as a DSS or invest in a PS. If you want to save a class focus on the DSS.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 02:30AM
The argument that BG gets 35+ pro stocks is just asinine. The honest truth is that PS has been dying for quite a few years. The proof? How many pros aren't going to BG at the same time. Additionally, what percent of those 35 stand an shot at the ring? PS is a great class to watch, but let's be honest.
Diesel Super Stock is another great class to watch. But similar to PS, the class is dying.
A turbo limits may cause a more expensive limited sized turbo, but would save expense (and breakage). Limited vs. unlimited turbo is a double edged sword in regards to price. Just look at the tangibles that are tied to each.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 03:17AM
Answer to your question about how many pro's aren't going to BG = approximately the same number of pro's aren't going as are going.

No need to limit turbo if fuel is limited
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 07:33AM
That's exactly my point. A person can't say that a class is "just fine" when there are approximately 70 PS nationwide (or any other number). If you look at the trend of that class the number has diminished substantially in the last few years. The projection is real similar to that of the DSS just a few years ago.

Now, to my main point. Just because a class is currently gaining numbers and has a sizable following doesn't mean it is on a healthy trajectory. What will happen is that the Light Pro's will continually gain power. "Limiting" fuel in a 16 mm P pump is not a control mechanism. That's a ton of fuel ability. There are three basic principles to making a fire: fuel, ignition source, and air. The current fuel ability will not keep this class at reasonable horsepower limits. The ignition source is compression. The air can be controlled by many different means. A turbo rule is the easiest to change and enforce. You can limit air intake with lower displacement. I don't see anybody wanting to decube. A set wastegate can limit the air, but is a waste of time. Fluid dynamic properties are not consistent for differing vehicles. This class needs to take a good hard look at the current turbo rule.

If proactive changes are not made this class will ultimately fail. Not today, tomorrow, or the next year, but in 10 years we will be looking back on the Light Pro's like we look back on the Pro's now.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 08:17AM
"Limiting" fuel in a 16 mm P pump is not a control mechanism. That's a ton of fuel ability."

The 16's are currently maxed out. The only platform that isn't maxed out on fuel is the V-8.

"You can limit air intake with lower displacement." This statement is just flat out wrong.


Keep the pump limited and everything else is a mute point.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 30, 2018 04:39AM
Fair point in regards to the pumps. However, there will be advances in pump technology. What will stop the competitors and pump builders from finding how to put plungers in? In pulling we are all competition driven. The competitive drive pushes us to create more technology that squeezes more and more power out of our engines. If somebody is content with their power they most likely are fibbing. A P-pump limit is not a limit. Just a rule to work around; a nuisance.

If you believe that all engine displacements have the same ability to intake air, you are wrong. Air is a compressible fluid. Having a set volume for the air to enter into (displacement) limits how much mass of air is in the cylinders. Additionally, a smaller displacement limits the mass airflow that drives the turbo, and therefore also limits the amount of intake air. In a hypothetical situation, say a competitor in an unlimited single turbo situation has the choice between big cubes and small cubes. All other factors aside and solely focused on power, that competitor would choose the big cube engine.

These arguments aside, an turbine outlet limitation would be simple to enforce. Saying that little rules are cheaper many rules is a false narrative. Just look at the classes that started with little rules. A class has got to be oriented for longevity. With today's machining/manufacturing and dynamometer capabilities, I believe a class can die or thrive much faster than before.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 30, 2018 06:41AM
If restricted to the oem 7100 case their ability to improve much is severely compromised. This would be where I would want enforcement to be.

You need to do more studying on your airflow theory you are thinking to narrowly.

Your point of the pump rule just being a nuisance in your first paragraph is 100% identical to the outlet restriction of your last paragraph. Same nuisance different location. Regardless of the rule, technology and innovation is the enemy of economical pulling. Doesn't matter what the class is.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 30, 2018 12:35PM
The Lgt Pro class has evolved from an entry level class to a very expensive class in just a few years. It doesn't matter if you put a size limit on a turbo or leave them any size, it will cost the same for the puller who wants the latest and greatest. Been there and done that !!! Turbo technology changes all the time. I know a few Lgt Pro guys who have bought several different Turbo charges through out the season trying to get that edge on the rest of the competition. It is a very fun class to watch, just priced out of my lead. Guess i will set back and watch them pull & Enjoy !!!
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 30, 2018 02:14PM
So limiting the turbo will drive up cost. Hmmm. What does a new, top of the line, UNLIMITED pro stock turbo cost???
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 11:23AM
As the title says, I’m new to the light pro class. We’ve done the limited classes and saw this as an opportunity to get in a class that has potential of major growth with an awesome ride. All pulling is expensive no matter what class. But when we were looking at switching classes and looking at the rules, this class in my opinion has all the rules in place as needed. Your turbo limiting factor is how much you want to work on it, if you can keep the rear end in it, and if you can get it hooked up to the track. So keep the class at 8500lbs, keep it 16mm p-pump, keep the cubes at 540, and keep it a cast class. That will keep it from being a class that you are constantly beating on it on the dyno, and keep it from becoming the “Latest and Greatest turbo trick of the week” class. Been there and done that for years. We have a fun class that isn’t all about the power, but about weighting and driving your tractor. Just my opinion but the currents limits are what makes the class so appealing.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 02:00PM
"new to light pro", your quote "but the currents limits are what makes the class so appealing." That is true today. But they are already substantially beyond what they were 5 years ago. Back then when this class started, the question every Lgt PS competitor was asking, what size turbo will my engine respond with. Lots of turbo experimentation has been seen since and they certainly are bigger today than then. So the whole point of this conversation is, where will the power performance with increasing technology be 5 years, 10 years from now? Will it be out of control with even bigger mega-dollars limiting who can even build, maintain and compete in the Lgt PS.

Many class competitors already want the class rules to allow a component chassis. Sound familiar to a couple other classes (SSD, PS) wants from a few years ago? Even though they put on a great show, look at where their technology has taken them to in performance and cost. Is that the trend the Lgt PS competitors really want for their class in the future? If not, then now is the time to install a reasonable limit upon the Lgt PS class in the name of long term sustainability to keep the class reasonably affordable over time which should translate to plenty of competitors and continue to see the class as a promoter and fan favorite.

To me, Kilroy's points all sound very logical. Thank you "read it again", you certainly understand what I originally said unlike "1979ER" who can only think about the class today rather than knowing what a half century of NTPA class history has proven what will happen in the evolution of any particular class. That history should be enough basis to make a reasonable Lgt PS limitation now. If not, once the Lgt PS class in a few years from now is out of control, how do you back peddle its performance with equitable new revamped rules? You cannot. That is the point where SSD and PS are today. That is likely what WPI wants to prevent with the current highly successful Lgt PS class. Sounds reasonable to me.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 29, 2018 10:17PM
I’ve forgotten more about NTPA and it’s history than you’ll ever know. You want to kill the class put a turbo limit on it. There are already turbos in the works to circumvent this rule and will run upwards of 11,000 dollars. So how sustainable is that? Right now you can get one for the class at around 6500. So we are going to put a limit in, drive the cost up, not do anything to decrease the HP and the guys who are complaining today will be further out of the pack than they are now. If you would have been there when the class was created, reasonable rules were proposed. OEM heads only (but that would piss Hypermax off) so now you have Himes , GMS, Lemke all have aftermarket heads in the class. The idea of a 4.25 by G trim wheel was proposed. The guys proposing these limits were laughed out of the room by WPI board members. In spite of that it has been and is one of the best classes going in the country and is consistently growingThis idea that the heavy pro is dead cracks me up and that this class is headed the same direction is laughable. This whole argument was started by some one up in Wisconsin that doesn’t even pull NTPA, he pulls Badger State (PPL) and has hooked NTPA 4 maybe 5 times over the last couple years. His claim is that if the rules changed maybe a few Badger guys would run WTPA and R3. Again, DPS looking out for his own back yard. 540 CID and the pump are your limiting factor.
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Re: Is Lgt PS a 'limited' class? March 30, 2018 12:04AM
I can tell you with 100% garuntee this rule proposal was not started my someone who pulls Badger State. It is being pushed by someone who pulls NTPA full time. Personally, i really don't know what's best. There have been some great arguments made on here, but I don't like false ones. Wanted to shut that one down right now.


Collin Birkholz
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 29, 2018 12:02PM
What is the actual cost to build one of these,top of the line winning tractor no matter what region it pulls in. Can someone give an honest answer?
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 29, 2018 02:08PM
120K-150K if your able to do some of the work. 160K-190K if you want someone to build you a turn Key Tractor. You did ask for a price on top of the Line Tractor !!! I can Guarantee that someone will say they can build one for less than these figures, But it won't be the best of everything !!!!
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 29, 2018 02:47PM
What is the best of everything?
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Re: Asinine to change it, let’s break it down politically March 30, 2018 05:00AM
Recast head, Billet Alum valve cover, Latest 16MM P-Pump & Enderly supply pump, Billet Injectors, .120 SS Injection lines, Billet Wheel & Ceramic Bearing Turbo, Billet Rods & Crankshaft, Billet Pistons, Roller Lifters, Roller Rockers, Billet Camshaft, Profab Transmission, External Brakes, Billet differential, 4 Disc x 12" Crower Clutch, Ace or Full Pull frame, Air Ride or Coil Spring front axle, Dibble Sheet metal, Keizer Alum rims, New Firestone Puller 2000, Fancy Data Logger, Go Pro Camera, Fancy paint job, The List goes on !!! I think I just shot my Budget Though !!! LOL
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Rules, Technology, Evolution of Pulling March 29, 2018 03:08PM
Greetings All !! I read a lot of opinions and ideas regarding the opening post of the NTPA light pro class.
Many opinions and Ideas are very interesting to read. However, no matter what rules are written, time has proven that Rules, classes, and technology, regarding the sport of tractor pulling are all things that continue to evolve and change with the changing of time. I have been involved in this sport since I was 7 years old. I have seen many classes come and go, I have seen and competed in classes with many rules, and I have seen and competed in many classes with very little rules. At the end of the day no matter how many rules are in place or lack thereof, we will continue to see great interest in new classes. The numbers of competition will grow and then at some point the numbers will start to dwindle. The top of the class will always be the competition who has the desire and monetary resources to be able to achieve top of the class status. There are no rules or limits that will ever stop this from happening, other than some kind of a buy out rule, which would allow another competitor to buy your tractor or engine at a predetermined price. Even then the elite will still be the elite. You can make all the rules you want and technology and the evolution of pulling and the will to win will continue to put the elite few at the top of the class regardless of the level at which we choose to compete at. This has always been true as long as I can remember in my 44 years of competing in this sport. So let's all enjoy the class as it is and let nature run its course, because it will regardless of any rule changes. Thanks and have a great time watching these competitors compete for the points championship in 2018.
By the way if all goes well I'm taking Tommy Shafer on The Boss to win R2 points.
However I have the utmost respect and admiration for every competitor in this very competitive class, and wish you all the best in 2018. Best Regards rw
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Re: Rules, Technology, Evolution of Pulling March 30, 2018 12:51AM
Hey, "1979ER" this quote of yours: "I’ve forgotten more about NTPA and it’s history than you’ll ever know." is a phenomenally bold claim when you have absolutely no idea of my history of NTPA. I gather from your handle you were born in 1979. That is 10 years after the formation of NTPA and I was already qutie involved with pulling even before that and have been with NTPA ever since in many ways. So the bottom line is quite likely I know far more of NTPA pulling history than you think and likely far more than what you know about it. So you need to be more careful and respectful about what you keep accusing me of.

And that includes that I have not stated the Lgt PS is dieing. Just because I stated I wonder if we have seen some class attrition already (and I asked for information on certain pullers status) does not mean the class is dieing. Before you blow off with more comments, stop and rationally think about what you want to say.

Again, this thread is not about the current state of the Lgt PS class. Here is the quote that started this thread: "So what's this I hear about a future turbo rule? Is this good or bad?" Most of the thread contributors are staying on topic. 1979ER, once again, obviously cannot see past today or tomorrow. Unfortunately, that is why guys like you should not be serving on a pulling board. I have and your type does not propel the pulling sport forward. You have to separate current emotion from longterm business planning objective thinking.

"RW IH 1568" has hit the nail on the head many times with his most recent post. Goes along with yesterday's post from "read it again".
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actually March 30, 2018 10:16AM
It’s the year my youngest child and only son was born. As far as short sightedness on my part you are way off. Put the turbo rule in and the class will price itself out of the market. 11,000 for a limited turbo is stupid and so is anyone pushing for a restriction that will take it to that price level. The problem is guys think that because they built one they have the right to win. Put your restriction in and the guys that want to win will and the have nots will still be crying and go back to brush pulling. As PULLMX stated you are looking at 190k to get into this class now and this turbo limit will increase that cost as guys will continue to update their chargers, spend time on the dyno with the new one, etc. I have a full comprehension of where this class started, where it is and where it will be if a turbo limit is put in place. When you look at results like a Ft. Recovery the top 20 were within 25’ of one another. So we need an $11,000 turbo to even it up? DUMB DUMB DUMB! When you look at the top 10 in results in different places, 10th place is often times within 20-30’ of first, how much more competitive do you want it?
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Re: actually March 30, 2018 11:21AM
Every top tractor is going to the dyno already and how much is the new turbo that was at nfms that everyone will now have to buy to keep up?

Just so some of us can understand, we are to believe with the current rules the competitors won't dyno every year and buy new latest turbos or other parts available to stay on top?

I will bet 6500 won't touch the new one.

I am not advocating anything just think we need to keep in touch with what is actually happening to stay in the top 5 of this class. And with each update still stop at 320 in 13 seconds.


COO for OTTPA

www.outlawpulling.com


www.truck-specialties.com

Schaeffer Oil Representative

[www.schaefferoil.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2018 11:25AM by AV.
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Re: actually March 30, 2018 12:57PM
190k to build a top notch light pro????..........another $60,000.00 and you could build a PS or DSS
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Re: actually March 31, 2018 05:10AM
Does this cost actually make any "Logic" sense (cents or $$)? Yet, a lot of pullers keep pushing that investment level much further and think nothing of it. It is the ruination of many classes and competitors alike who cannot really afford such.
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Re: Rules, Technology, Evolution of Pulling April 23, 2018 09:39AM
I love it when guys use a fake name and then expect people to believe anything they say. Maybe if you used your real name we would know that you actually are involved with the NTPA. Or that you actually are a tractor puller. Or that you actually do have some real world experience with the topic in question. Expecting someone to listen to you, when you are scared of your own name in the first place doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 21, 2018 06:14AM
If you can not afford this class you do not belong in it, class is fine with rules as they are
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 21, 2018 03:25PM
It sounds like the arrogant Cocky pullers should jump up a class and get um some
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 23, 2018 01:40PM
Quote
green
If you can not afford this class you do not belong in it, class is fine with rules as they are
While I would agree that the class is fine now what about in 3 years? How about 5 years? Where will we be then? Pullers just look at the present and that's why we sacrifice our future. Pulling has had a very long history with a lack of forethought, but yet we repeatedly refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past.

Smart rules now will ensure that this class has a bright future.

Personally I'd like to see this class do something different: I love to see this class try an intake restrictor tube (or plate). I prefer the intake side because it's much easier to police and it eliminates the smooth bore/slotted argument (and it potentially eliminates modifying the covers of "stock" turbos). It's also a very, very, very cheap solution. Builders will argue against it because there's less money in it for them.

It's cheap, easy to police, and logical... so pulling won't do it.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 23, 2018 02:55PM
Thanks Jake for endorsing what I have been saying about this topic. I post to try to get people to think. Beyond the length of their nose and own investment. Look down the road, into the future. For the good of the class and pulling sport. History of a similar situation(s) certainly can be a valuble insight.

"Grubby", since your post is right after my previous post, I take it that you are talking to me. First, It sounds to me like your posted name is fake. It does not agree with your email address. You do not post a valid first and last name. I have no idea what you pull, let alone with what and with what sanctioning body. So with your logic, I should take your statement and totally dismiss it. So why are you harping on my handle?

If I posted my real name (and I have valid reasons why I do not), how does that make my previous post statement any more valid? If that statement did not get you and the readership to realize it is the truth, then you have not learned NTPA pulling history very well. Yes, I am very involved with NTPA. For a very long time. There you have it.

Now I assume you will believe thoroughly what I previously stated without questioning it further. Apparently it has not bothered anybody else as it has been up there for a month. Will you second the motion of that 3/31 post?
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 01:05AM
Well I'm glad I can't think passed my nose or my own investment and to Lewis, If I could get to the bigger cubes. I would go get me some. I'm going to try this one more time. Facts not your over rated opinions. The rules where made years ago. I and most are not wanting to change anything. Leave rules alone. not up not down. I came to this class for the reasons I liked the rules not cause I wanted to get in and change them. I personally haven't run a G- trim turbo for almost 6 years now. so I'm suppose to sit here and take it cause some people scared of rumors or they think they cant win anymore. If you use your head, you can find used PS chargers for a lot less then a new G-Trim. The last one was half the price. Have air wheel turned down, new cover, and re-bearing still 2/3 the cost of G-trim. I don't understand how not asking for anything ruins a sport. When same guys have two or three tractors but want someone else to limit there tractor is just crazy. One last note. Heard other day that G-trim went head to head with new big turbo and was within 100 HP. Not sure if true or not just saying.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 02:24AM
Someone answer me this, who enforces the rules we have now? I’ve ran light pro for years & never once had a rule checked or enforced. Why create another rule that won’t be checked?
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 03:34AM
Quote
Jake Morgan

If you can not afford this class you do not belong in it, class is fine with rules as they are
While I would agree that the class is fine now what about in 3 years? How about 5 years? Where will we be then? Pullers just look at the present and that's why we sacrifice our future. Pulling has had a very long history with a lack of forethought, but yet we repeatedly refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past.

Smart rules now will ensure that this class has a bright future.

Personally I'd like to see this class do something different: I love to see this class try an intake restrictor tube (or plate). I prefer the intake side because it's much easier to police and it eliminates the smooth bore/slotted argument (and it potentially eliminates modifying the covers of "stock" turbos). It's also a very, very, very cheap solution. Builders will argue against it because there's less money in it for them.

It's cheap, easy to police, and logical... so pulling won't do it.

How do we make sure that we are moving forward, and not standing still.
No one wants to see the exact same tractors with the same performance for ever.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 25, 2018 02:38AM
amen!!!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 04:37AM
GOT THE ANSWER.

Run any pump, any turbo just can't have water injection. That will cut down the power & make a GREAT night show.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 05:13AM
And another idiot speaks, leave the rules alone everybody knew the rules going into the class plain and simple, nobody is forcing anyone to run a bigger turbo or make more horsepower, not every prostock and every Super stock runs the same power but the guys are still there to pull
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 07:14AM
Quote
Lt pro puller

Yes, they are. But therein is the whole problem. Not near as many as there use to be. Especially SS. And have you figured out why? That is what I have been talking about this whole thread. Is that the road you want your class to go down in time?

I find it amazing that some of the Region 2 Lt PS pullers are past SSD pullers who gave up on the horsepower and cost chase of that class. But I understand that at least 1 of them is possibly/likely using the big new $$ turbo. If so, wonder why he really wants to chase down the same road again? And thus force his competitors to do likewise in time. To gain what? That is the issue of this whole thread - Long Term Thriving Survivability of the Lgt PS class. That is what WPI is contemplating. Not that the rules are just fine, right now.

Perhaps you need to go back and read this whole thread from the start. Or possibly at least what my posts have been saying. Not saying I have the only answer. But it is a perspective that literally no one, or at least not many, have been presenting. And yet every Lt PS puller I have been talking to in person agree with my point of view.

It is going to be an interesting summer as the Lgt PS competitors "discuss and cuss" (quote courtesy of Larry Richwine) the possible rule tweaking.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 24, 2018 07:19AM
I tried Jake's Quote shortcut dock option and obviously it did not work for me. So I will do it the old fashioned cut & paste way so you know what I was referring to in the post I just made.

Lt pro puller said "not every prostock and every Super stock runs the same power but the guys are still there to pull."
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We are forgetting the Fans here! April 24, 2018 12:48PM
Greetings all, After over 1 month of opinions and ideas, I see where one of the most important parts of our sport of tractor pulling is being forgotten. Most of the opinions I believe come from pullers at some level or another, most opinions center on our own selfish desires for what we think this class should be. It appears most of the opinions center around 1 tractor or another dominating the NTPA LPS class, and what we can do to level the playing field, so that the competition is all close together as so no one gets embarrassed or out pulled or whatever you may choose to label it. No matter how much bickering goes on in this thread, no matter my opinion or any of yours, the powers to be will do as they please, to try and achieve the results that they are seeking. I am speaking from a competitors point of view as well as a fan of tractor pulling at all levels. I'm going to end this post with 2 questions. Have any of you ever been to a pull where all the trucks or tractors pull at or nearly the same spot, so close that the fans sitting in the seats cannot really tell if one competitor or another got ahead of the last guy. The crowd is relatively silent and bored. Then on the other hand a bunch of pullers land about the same spot, then one comes out and "Takes it out the gate". What does the crowd do? They go wild!!!!
Let's let nature take its course, enjoy this very exciting class while it's doing so well. It's doing well for a reason. If it someday dies off, another class will take its place. No big deal. Let's not forget why we pull. We do it for the competition and to put on a show for who? The Fan's. That's right let's out on a show for the fans, without them we have no tractor pulling, especially with the sanctioned organizations. Think about it! By the way, I'm still going with the Boss in R2E in 2018
Best regards. rw
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Re: We are forgetting the Fans here! April 25, 2018 04:19AM
You speak of remembering the fans. Well, it is hard to entertain fans when there are dwindling numbers. Look at the long run. Today the class is keeping the fans entertained. If the future of the class sees numbers lower, the fans won't be entertained.

To build on your sentiment of placement of tractors, how many times have you watched a class where there are some tractors that are 30 ft. behind? I understand that everybody starts somewhere and that bad pulls happen, but a class with many lackluster performances is boring. By placing performance limits, you would pull the rear of the group up. Even though the top of the class would remain the top, the overall show would be better.

RW IH 1586 is fine with letting classes die. I find having many classes with slightly changing rules to be extremely confusing to the casual fan. If a class goes away, how do you keep the casual fans in touch with all the classes?

In actuality, the Light Pro class is a byproduct of poorly original rules. I would think that a reform of all single turbo diesel classes would help the future. It would be impossible to change the classes of today, but I would change the classes to the following:

Super Farm
540 cid
3x3 turbo
cast chassis
p-pump
8500 lbs

Limited Pro
540 cid
4.1 turbo
cast chassis
p-pump
8500 lbs

Pro Stock
540 cid
any turbo
component chassis
sigma pump
8500 lbs

In my utopian class structure, the various 466/505/540/640 classes that have some variant of a 3x4 or 3x3 turbo would be merged to be the super farm class above. This would be the "introductory" national class. Puller progression would be a change in turbo and other tuning to progress to limited pro. This would be a combination of today's light pro and limited pro. Some more changes would move a puller to pro stock. A 540 overall displacement would make parts more common and interchangeable, promoting growth. The durability would be better than the large displacement motors we have today.

Nobody ever wants progressive change in tractor pulling, so this utopian class structure will never happen. I know Jake has talked for years about lowering displacements. I think if we started to change for the future, pulling would grow and become popular like it was in the 80s.
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Re: We are forgetting the Fans here! April 25, 2018 03:42PM
Paul, what does "I myself hinder the equalness of pulling,just bought more horespower." mean?
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Re: We are forgetting the Fans here! April 26, 2018 12:19AM
he spent the money for a new superdynowhoppinmojodoola more power producing parts
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Re: We are forgetting the Fans here! April 25, 2018 12:29PM
Quote
RW IH 1568
Let's let nature take its course, enjoy this very exciting class while it's doing so well. It's doing well for a reason. If it someday dies off, another class will take its place. No big deal. rw

The problem I have with this statement is that's what has created all these classes within the divisions we have today. Why can't we get it right 1 time? Start a new class so we can spread the numbers even thinner? To make pulling successful you need tractors. Without some stiffer rules we will be talking about how awesome light pro was when it was first established and how many tractors there used to be. Look at how quick the dss class is dwindling.

I have followed this thread from the start and wasn't even going to comment because I'm not sure how I feel about changing the class. It is a good class and is just what the pulling world needed but has the possibility of losing numbers really quick. I just don't see how adding more classes is the answer either. How much more confusing can it get before the casual fan just quits coming? We have 3 prostock divisions already, do we need another 1? There's 3 super stock divisions, do we need another 1? There's already a few variations of super farm. There's a pile of profarm classes and a new 510 class coming this year. How many more classes do we really need to create? Maybe 1 for each puller will solve it.

I'm just trying to create a discussion here. I don't know what the right answer is either. I think having populated classes within the organization's and not class populated organization's is how pulling will survive. Flame away I guess.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 25, 2018 02:39AM
AMEN!!!!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 25, 2018 06:18AM
Some have too much money,time,ego,status or are so arrogant and self centered and enjoy being on top that competition will always have the haves,have nots and wanna be someones.Just the nature of the Beast. Christians can not agree,politicians can't agree,gangs and drugs Lords all fight among themselves,we as tractor pullers do it for sport,a hobby and fun,but no matter what It is more fun to win,not ALL about winning,but sure makes the ride home better. Friendship,(Brian Lively said it well) is a big part of pulling,I met a new friend at a pull and we talked as we walked the grounds in and out of the venue pulling area,I was hundreds of miles from home,my new friend said that he was amazed at how many people knew me. I love the comradarie,laughs,support and challenges that my travels,hobby and friendships bring,pulling is a family on going activity for many,when younger we had many pulls where our "gang" brought food,deserts,fruits,melons and beverages to share,pot luck type,kids played,.ran,watched volley ball,softball,craft shows,swaps and more. So,believe it or not in the real world,we are not all created equal and for sure not in any sport,competiton level. I have no idea how to fix the class issues,I myself hinder the equalness of pulling,just bought more horespower.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 25, 2018 03:44PM
Paul, what does "I myself hinder the equalness of pulling,just bought more horespower." mean?

Perhaps this post will be in the proper location this time.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 26, 2018 12:19AM
With all the talk about limits,on several levels in some classes,sounds like people want classes with more " participation ",seems like many think that limiting is the answer.I just bought more.
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My final Post on this Thread April 26, 2018 07:17PM
Just wanted to address a few items mentioned in recent posts.
First off to Kilroy, The NTPA LPS class does not appear to have dwindling numbers that I can see. If they should, this is a normal thing that happens in most motorsports I know of. I have witnessed this personally at many different levels over the past 44 years I've been pulling. It has happened in many classes with Many Rules, and Very Few Rules. This will never change. regardless of rules or regulations.

Second, I have seen tractors and trucks run way behind the front runners. This is a natural thing that happens in pulling as well. As for the NTPA LPS Class, I have never seen a "Lack Luster Performance from any of these competitors baring a breakage or issue of some sort. What a slap in the face to the competitors of this class that has spent a lot of money and time on their Good Running and Really Nice Looking Rides! There is Nothing " Lack Luster" about any of these Rides!

Third, Kilroy and Brandon B, RW IH 1568 is NOT "Fine" with Letting classes die! I was merely making a true statement about how classes come and go. Again, a Natural thing in pulling and motorsports in general. I've watched it happen time over and again, over the past 44 years I've been competing. That's what I was referring to with " Letting nature take its course" As far as "Casual Fans" I would bet most " Casual Fans" do not know one class from another, they go to see Speed Noise and Smoke, and someone Taking it Out the gate! I'm not saying we don't have knowledgeable fans who are in tune with the different classes, because we do, and I am glad we have a following of interested people and fans.

Again, the powers to be will do as they please with the rules, However I feel changing the rules when a Class has been established and built around the rules , and the competitors in this LPS class has invested into there tractors to compete within the rules set forth, is not right to change them mid stream other than for safety reasons. These people have spent many Thousands of dollars and spent Countless hours to get where they are today, just to have the Rug pulled out from underneath their feet is not right. I would bet that if Kilroy and Brandon and any other people reading this would spend the money and time these guys have, and then have the rules changed to where your investment or a part there of is worth nothing, You would not like it either. Lets take for example, you buy a new pickup truck for $65,000 dollars. Now the government comes out and says pick up trucks are now illegal. You just spent 65k and now its worth nothing because it is illegal and you are stuck with a worthless heap of steel. Kind of Stings, Don't It!
Anyway, Hope you all can go have a good time watching these fierce competitors Blow some smoke while they put on one of the best shows tractor pulling has to offer.
Best of Luck to all the LPS pullers. My Hat is off to you all who compete and put on the show!
Best Regards, rw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2018 03:27AM by RW IH 1568.
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Re: My final Post on this Thread April 27, 2018 09:18AM
Well RW, I am a light pro puller. That's why I said in my post I'm not sure how I feel about changing the rules since the class is established. I just hope that it doesn't get so far out of hand that the numbers disappear either. I work with a couple promoters on selling pulls and they don't like buying classes with low numbers. The light pro class is hot right now, I hope we can keep it together.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 27, 2018 02:27AM
to RW1568 thank you for finalllly! saying it in A true sense of our classes feelings, AGAIN--- AMEN!!!!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 27, 2018 11:50AM
Well life ain't fair -- not in health,investments,politics,church or in sports,makes no difference to anyone that we choose to spend,our choice to build and try and have what it takes,only to have rules changed,deleted,overridden and on and on.I am proud to say that I was raised in the school of hard knocks,--not everyone is "ENTITLED" !
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 27, 2018 02:59PM
Every NTPA class has seen their rules tweaked after the class was inaugurated and proved themselves on the track. Some of those classes have been literally countless times such as the heavy Unlimited Mod class.
So why should the Lgt PS class be the only holy sacred class with no tweaking to make sure it will be a long term viable class?

A person would think that Robert - aka RW IH 1568 - is defending his own ride. Nope, he does not have a NTPA tractor. But I am wondering when he will spend the big bucks to vastly upgrade his Lgt PS that operates by very limited rules in his local brush circuit to become one of the NTPA Region 2 competitors.

But Robert sure sounds like he is the Region 2 class spokesman. I talked with several of those competitors, I not having any idea what their feeling was about a possible limit and I found each one is in favor of such. Which is contrary to what "green" said. And if "green" is who I think it is, then he is wanting to make certain his big new $$ tech turbo investment is protected.

And Robert, I do not recall anyone posting in this thread that said those Region 2 Lgt PS have a lackluster performane or even appearance. It is one highly competitve and appealing class. Most likely, WPI wants to make certain the Lgt PS remains as such for a long, long time. A person has no further to look than the 2 classes NTPA was founded upon - Super Stock and Modified. Used to be they were coming out of the wood work. Today, you have to do a lot digging just to find a few.

But apparently, that is okay as Robert said "If it someday dies off, another class will take its place. No big deal." meaning you do not care if the Lgt PS class becomes extinct. Well, I do. Pretty hard to promote something when it is on life support or extinct.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 02:38AM
Well said "Could it Be" I agree with you. I just don't know if some of the others can read your post and comprehend what it says.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 08:05AM
Could it be. Could you tell me the last tractor class that as you say tweaked the rules to limit a class. I’m not talking about letting morein. I’m talking about limits. Then tell me last time that happened 10 years after class started. Weather you know it or not. 1/4 or more are running bigger than G trim now. What are we suppose to do with our investments. I for one would be open to another sanction if turbo rule is not in place. I’ve worked and spent way to long to go backwards. I will sell before cave to a bunch of socialists.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 02:36PM
Hmmm, I don't think your number of 25% of LPS pullers are running larger than G trim now is correct. If you bought one after the NTPA announcement, then you are foolish. Your post has a lot about you. Did you consider that a G trim turbo might save you and every other LPS puller money later in reduced breakage? There are pullers wanting components because their transmissions won't take the hp and there's the next round of bigger turbos. Pro Stock class had a cubic inch limit and chassis change.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 02:40PM
Hmmmm, off the top of my memory without taking time to research the exact year, but somewhere about 4 years ago for Lgt Unl - two engines only, SF - turbo technicality (trying to be closer to PPL rules), GN SSD - engine displacement in relation to turbocharger stages. SF started about 30 years ago & SSD approaching the half century mark.

The turbo investment is a very tiny % of the the total tractor investment. How many turbos have you invested in already for your Lgt PS tractor? It seems to me most tractor pullers, irrespective of class, are not all that concerned of turbo cost or frequency to spend more $ to have the latest, greatest turbo regardless of cost. Their ego says 'I need to win regardless of cost.'

Now check out how many weight tweaks the Heavy UNL have seen since NTPA's existence starting in 1970 - 12000 Open, 12200 UNL, 11200 UNL in 1986, 9200UNL in 1992, 8200 UNL in '93, 7400 UNL in '94, 7600 UNL in '95, 7800 in '99, 7900 in 2000, 8000 UNL in 2006 and since.
It is a good thing you were not in this class during those years when making vast weight reductions. What would you have done with your investment, especially in excess engines, then?

How interesting you imply without saying it, that the Lgt PS divisional committee and WPI are "socialists". What is wrong with close competition? I like it. Keeps it interesting to see who did the best job of figuring out the track condition, setting up the vehicle and employing their best driving skill. I like to see many different winners in a season rather than a foregone conclusion that most likely 'Zzzzz' will likely win another hook.

Yes, it is hard to back pedal on rules and make it equitable. But better now than farther down the road in time. It is impossible then. Do not have to look any further than PS and especially SSD.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 02:47PM
Most new classes get it right the first time its what happens after about the 3rd year in that get things started put some claimers on turbos the fans get the same show and the pullers save some cash theres nothing wrong with limits ,You guys had pro stock so why limited pro and light pro? Now because when the classes started more could aford the class because of limits keep letting your limits go you will be prostock again Now you can fire away ive been doing this 30+years like it or not been there done that and dead on
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 29, 2018 02:32AM
I like claimer turbos. I hear people throw 6500 around a lot, good place to start.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 29, 2018 04:46PM
To Could it be, I have taken your advise from one of your posts, and read this entire thread on the LPS class. You seem intent on calling a man in one of your recent post by his Real Name, "Robert - aka RW IH 1568". Robert Wiseman to be exact. First off his information is made public, he is obviously not afraid to attach his own personal info to his posts. That speaks numbers about who he is as a person in general. So please forgive me "Robert - aka RW IH 1568" for using your real name in this post in your defense. Because I have taken your last post titled "my final post on this thread" to mean that you would not post on this thread again, regardless of what is said. I can say this with confidence because I happen to know him and his family, personally. They are honest, friendly, say what they mean, willing to help anyone kind of people, regardless of the color of tractor you drive, or if you even compete against them. That's just who they are. I would bet since you seem to know him so well, you should go introduce yourself to him and shake his hand and tell him you are hungry or thirsty, I would bet he would go buy you a sandwich and a drink. I'm not saying that they don't mean business while on the track, because in all the years I have know them and competed against them, they leave it all on the track, and if you beat them, they are the first to congratulate the winners. From what I have read, I do not see where he has posted anything negative or false in any of his posts. He has done nothing but spoke well of the NTPA LPS class. I promise you that he is a big of a fan of this class, and DOES care about its survival as anyone out there, as he has stated in one of his posts
"Third, Kilroy and Brandon B, RW IH 1568 is NOT "Fine" with Letting classes die! I was merely making a true statement about how classes come and go. Again, a Natural thing in pulling and motorsports in general. I've watched it happen time over and again, over the past 44 years I've been competing"
Notice he said he is "NOT Fine" with classes dying.
Yes, you are correct, he does not pull NTPA, for many reasons, most likely the biggest reason, he enjoys pulling with local friends and family, he also pulls with COTPA LPS. All I can say about that is, if he did decide to join NTPA, as you would say in your words, "But I am wondering when he will spend the big bucks to vastly upgrade his Lgt PS that operates by very limited rules in his local brush circuit to become one of the NTPA Region 2 competitors." You can bet he would bring his A game.
As for Robert being a spokesperson for Region 2, I have not seen where he has stated that in any way, the only thing I see is that he has made posts expressing his gratitude, admiration, and respect for this NTPA LPS class as well as tractor pulling in general. I will go out on a limb and say that I believe him to be a great spokesperson for tractor pulling at all levels of competition. He and his family have a wealth of knowledge regarding this sport. They have helped many people and yes even their completion. They been doing it for a long time.
As for your quote,
"And Robert, I do not recall anyone posting in this thread that said those Region 2 Lgt PS have a lackluster performane or even appearance. It is one highly competitve and appealing class" you should take your own advise and read the entire thread, here is Kilroys quote, "To build on your sentiment of placement of tractors, how many times have you watched a class where there are some tractors that are 30 ft. behind? I understand that everybody starts somewhere and that bad pulls happen, but a class with many lackluster performances is boring". Keep in mind his post is in regards to the NTPA LPS class. Yes there are many LPS tractors coming up 30 feet behind at many pulls, however, here is Roberts quote, "Second, I have seen tractors and trucks run way behind the front runners. This is a natural thing that happens in pulling as well. As for the NTPA LPS Class, I have never seen a "Lack Luster Performance from any of these competitors baring a breakage or issue of some sort. What a slap in the face to the competitors of this class that has spent a lot of money and time on their Good Running and Really Nice Looking Rides! There is Nothing " Lack Luster" about any of these Rides!" Again he is speaking very well of this class, read his quote.
It appears to me he is one of the very few posting on this site, that hasn't changed his tune on where he stands, and has done nothing but speak truths and facts in his posts. I can assure you that there is not anyone out there who cares more about tractor pulling at All levels, than Robert. So I guess I do not understand why you would make a post like you have, when in one of your posts your were agreeing with him. Now you are throwing his name around like he did something wrong? He has not wavered on any of his posts in this thread. I'm confused here. By the way, here is your quote from one of your posts,
"RW IH 1568" has hit the nail on the head many times with his most recent post. Goes along with yesterday's post from "read it again".
I just don't get it? Sorry Robert for posting your Real name again. I just couldn't let someone throw your name around in a negative light, especially when I know what you stand for and what you are about. Once again, could it be, go introduce yourself to Mr. Wiseman, you might just gain a new friend! In fact I'm sure you will, they are 1st class folks! Joe
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 04:55AM
to could it be REALLY!!!
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When the V8s start dominating them what? April 28, 2018 11:48AM
Carlton is already hard to beat and when the V8 gets totally turned game over. Then what? The 8 will be able to spin a bigger charger. And the NTPA has always worked with the rules. They decide to keep classes blanced. Where have you been the last 20 years.
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Re: When the V8s start dominating them what? April 28, 2018 11:51AM
Carlton built a great vehicle with a V-8 but we're not scared of any V8!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 28, 2018 12:28PM
Too just looking ahead. Now I see what’s really bothering you. Scared you gonna get cleaned up. First off I’ve been around a lot longer than twenty years. Second off you just threw out statement. Third if big bad V8 gonna be class killer? Don’t you think he can turn bigger limited charger or same as your size better? What happens next, limit fuel cause they have two more plungers? Hog wash, Copes stuff runs and runs hard. He just like any other puller ever lived lost more than ever won. I never owned one but pulled against a few v8’s. Tuff? Very. Dominating? Hardly. Let things alone.
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 29, 2018 01:53AM
Cope ain't even dialed in yet. Just wait!
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Re: Light Pro Turbos April 29, 2018 02:17AM
We will see you this summer straight six Still rule!
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