06:24:02pm, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
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Light Pros see the light
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Just read the proposals from the light pro guys. Finally some guys willing to dial it back a little to save their class and their check book. 4.5 exhaust limit should have been there from the get go.16 mil pumps are plenty . These limits should lessen the call for component chassis. Not sure about the recast blocks, adding cost but maybe better in the long run I guess if you split a couple of stock ones.
The herd is getting thinner is all the classes. Maybe some others will follow suit and dial em back a little to save the sport. Promoters aren't going to pay big money when only a half a dozen show up. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Trent Grimes
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I understand people saying that limiting the turbo to 4.5 on the exhaust will help shut down the horsepower race and stop from having to go to component chassis down the road but what we have found out and several other guys is that if you go much over a 5 inch intake wheel, that 16mm fuel pump becomes your limiter. You start scorching pistons. I know this is our first year as light pro and my word doesn't have a lot of say to it but from what I have been seeing and gathering that pump is the limiter. When you set a limit on a turbo it turns into a dyno class to try and find that extra 50 horsepower so really down the road you aren't saving much if any money at all. I am a little byas because we are over that 4.5 inch exhaust wheel limit by quite a bit, but if the rules were to change we would do it no problem because we really enjoy this class. Basically all I'm trying to say is as far as I can tell that pump is the limiter and if you set limits on the turbo you turn it into a dyno class. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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14mm pump a 4.1 charger 540 cubes would be a good balance and probably run all summer remember gentlemen this is a show and who wants to wrench on this stuff all the time for 500$ |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/19/2010 Posts: 163 |
Hey "Fuzz" what tractor is your's? You sure have a lot of ideas for someone that can't be identified. There ia a class real close to what you want called Limited Pro. Why have 2 of the same? |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/19/2010 Posts: 163 |
You are right on Trent. There are currently "G" exhaust trim turbos that are within 50-75 hp of the bigger exhaust turbos, and this is without much R&D on the "G" trims. All of this"Big Turbo" usage is a result of a "loose" cylinder head rule and the advancement of pumps and injectors' Limiting the turbo will not stop anyone wanting to "Find" HP!
Only drive up cost due to a lack of choice. It may cause a temporary slow down on the higher HP tractors of gaining new power quickly, and allow some to catch up, if they are willing to step up and get the better stuff, but won't hold back any of the people who work at "Finding" HP. The "Gloom and Doom" scenario of tractors exploding and loss of numbers never happen this year and there are more pullers that have more power this season than in any of the past years. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Trent Grimes
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Jd4455ssd- you are exactly right it just makes it more difficult and expensive down the road. I know people are worried about how we are at the power range of 3,000hp where the Pro Stocks years ago started breaking rear ends and think we should go component because of this, but they also need to remember that we domt weigh 10,000 pounds. Were at 8,500 pounds and dont usually lock down on the track. Plus I'm sure that rear end parts are made better and stronger nowadays. Once again this is our first year as light pro so I can't say much but I just feel as if people are under the assumption that these things break a lot and are really dangerous, whenever really they hardly do break so they want to change all the rules to make it a limited class. That's what drew us to this class was that you can actually try new things and it's not such a dyno class. Yes we did dyno, but it's not like our old class where you almost had to dyno up to 3 times a season just keep keep up on horsepower updates throughout the season to stay competitive. I could be all wrong on my thinking and if I am someone please let me know since we are new to this class, but this is just what I have thought and came up with on it. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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JD6030
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4455ssd, if NTPA does not pass the limits that were posted, where do you think the LPS class will go? I can tell by reading your post that you are not in favor of limits. When you are contemplating your answer, leave YOUR tractor and budget out of your thoughts. An honest answer would be appreciated. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/19/2010 Posts: 163 |
JD6030, have thought on what you asked. The class will continue, as any other class has with NTPA, meaning the that most all classes are cyclic,class numbers go up then moderate,and sometimes fall. You have to ask yourself where those competitors went if the numbers go down. Not all downward movement in class numbers is solely due to not having enough limitations. Look at super farm, has a restrictive turbo, and not near the numbers it once had just a few years ago. Is that due to not enough limits or too much? People move on to other things in life, or move to a different class, or go to a different level of pulling. Despite what some think, no class, in it's description in the rulebook is stated as entry level. They all progress and cost more the longer they are around. Even with new limits there is still no telling how it would end up. As others and myself have stated, technology does not stop, better parts are designed every season. This is the best most honest answer I can give. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Been following region 2 light pros lately. Just wondering where you guys have been, and also Palmers, Thornhill, Powerhound
Cashed out and a few others. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 04/06/2008 Posts: 974 |
I completely agree that limiting the charger becomes a dyno class. I have no answer for the class but the power gains every year are becoming incredible and really good tracks are getting harder and harder to come by. Who knows what will become of the class |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 01/12/2016 Posts: 55 |
Limit the pumps to 14mm and motors locked down at 540cubes. No fuel no fire to make power. Turbo size will become one dictated by what the motor can turn and if its limited on fuel there's your answer. Guys can play games with sizes then but it'll only turn so much based on fuel to fire it so it'll level itself out.
Red712 |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Finally someone else can see that limitations of cubes and fuel is what all other moter sports start out with. why do we keep ignoring the truth . Big cubes and big pumps and endless spending is what got us in this mess. it's time for some serious changes soon only super wealthy will be pulling by themselves wake-up |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro puller
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You guys posting these 3000 hp numbers .like you actually have seen somebody break 3000 hp !I'm here to tell you that they have not .leave the class alone!!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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This class is doing nothing except get bigger every year, why change things now? And the numbers in the Pro Stock class seem pretty good to me. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Class puller
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If you want to run a limited class run the 4.1 class , super Farm class , hot Farm or whatever is out there, leave the light pro class alone, just because you have a bigger charger does not mean you are going to dominate that has been proven |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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I'm not the one hiding behind a #i put my name out there. It amazes me that you don't see what's going on around you sure rite now you may have good # but eventually your class will suffer also one day you'll look around and only have a few will be left. maybe your right. Maybe if we take off all the restrictions and you guys could all buy 20000 pumps and 15000 turbos. That would surely improve the chances of others joining your class you think I'm picking on you. I'm not but it you don't at least think about what's happened before in other class's eventually you will follow the same path. Good luck to you and yours maybe someday when they vote in components I'll come pull with you fuzz |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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So now what
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So builders have proposed limitations and peoples get spun up, pullers propose limitations and people get spun up. The competitor is their own worst enemy. They has to win with what ever the cost... then wants to whine about what it costs or blame other people for their lack of success. It’s history. people don’t change.. the wheel goes around, lots of people talk.... few people listen and some get the privilege to say “I told ya so” and then it starts all over again. The smart ones learn and dumb ones....well they donate heavily to someone’s pocket. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Clearly MR jd4455ssd you have problem with the idea of limitations I can understand that. The problem is that your class is starting down the same road as almost all the other tractor classes have been down. the only thing that you get is dwindling number s and no new blood coming in.
As far as who I am and what kind of tractor I have. I have a new component chassis sitting in my shop just waiting to see the outcome of all this insanity. Jeff Ludlum double j ag +express |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Truck puller
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smaller turbine side with a limit would make the class better than what it has been this year. Bunch of tractors snuff out because they are trying to run too big of a turbo because of all this speculation and rumor of what some guys are running. Its turning into a disappointing class to watch. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/19/2010 Posts: 163 |
Fuzz sounds like you've probably been pulling at the national level for 20 plus years with your knowledge, too bad you hide behind a made up name. We probably should follow your sage advice and really just pedal pull, that way our bodies are the limitation.
Obviously you're not too serious about participating or you would put a engine in that chassis and come compete, instead of hiding and waiting. The issue to me in my opinion, is someone is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. No one has yet identified to me what is so wrong with the light pro class, only that it needs another limit. Prove to me how the class is in decline and just why it is in decline, then I would be more willing to address a solution. Not sure when the issue of increase of HP became such a bad thing. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 10:40AM by jd4455ssd. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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I could really give a crap less about your class but it sounds like Fuzz knows what hes talking about and it sounds like a bunch of you guys dont no when to give it up for the best interest of the class and do i care if i get bashed for not being your guys Moma and saying well hunny you no your Daddy says you shouldnt be doing that its wrong keep it up or you and your friends wont be able to play pulling no more NOT |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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just asking
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Lweis, I'm still laffing!!! Thanx 4 that hoomorous repli !!!!
Mr. Wiederhold, 1) Since Region 2 Lgt PS got broke into East & West divisions, we now have many events that do not even have 10 per class. Why is that? 2) In the East, ony 5 of 31 have made all the events. That is a pretty crappy turnout. Why is it so lousy? 3) The West is 5 out of 37 points hunters. Again the same crappy puller participation turnout. Why is it so lousy? 4) You were leading the West points. Then disappeared. How come? 5) Are any of these answers related to too much breakage? Due to annual increasing power performance? 6) If so, then just perhaps that is the problem. After all, I can name a few others, the same as you can, who broke at some point in the season. Goodness, would it not be better for the puller, promoter and fans to see more, if not all, those tractors weekly on the track? All this sounds like a decline of the class to me. I'm sure, you, too, can name some of your earlier competitors who decided not to participate in the class anymore. Does this qualify as a class decline? And thus a concern for the powers to be? 7) I just love your parting sentence: "Not sure when the issue of increase of HP became such a bad thing." Was that not at least part of the reason for you to exit the SSD class? Just asking. Just looking for honest answers to each question. Thanks. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Sometimes those closest to the problem have the least vision. I don't want people to think I'm being mean with some of the statements I've made here that's not the case . It's just I've watched the slow death of the dss class over the past several years and no one seems to give a @#$%& .this is the class that started pulling (nothing against the mods) and we've basically let it slip away. When it finally happens I hope the ghosts of John klug dicky Sullivan Dale kohl and others haunt us for letting it happen |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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JD6030
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The problem with the light pro stock class is you spend more time waiting on parts than you do pulling, not to mention the expense. 5" turbos will not help this problem and now we need a re-cast block to solve the problems the big turbos create. In what other business would this make sense? |
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$14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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Puller
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Wimer is already developing one to fit this rule and will make more power than some of what is already leading the pack. The disparity between the haves and have nots will increase with this rule. Why is there so much focus on fixing a class that isn’t broke? The guys that want to win will buy that big dollar turbo. The guys that can’t afford to be in the class now will be that much further behind. Let’s focus on fixing the classes that are struggling like DSS, ULSS and the RN SS classes. There is plenty to be fixed in pulling but the light pro class isn’t one of them. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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longtimer
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Puller, you just gave reasons why Light PS literally already is and will be another "broke" class. Just like the ones that you say are "struggling" which happen to be classes literally beyond fixing to within a reasonable - umm, may I say the nasty, dirty, unlikable, almost like swearing, word called - limitation.
Your $14,000 Turbo will have the same effect in Light PS as it has in PS and SSD. Pulling at the highest level of competition amounts to anymore too often is who has the biggest wallet. It is the survival of the few finanicially wealthiest. Rather sad. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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Shouldn't the highest level of the sport have the best equipment? If you want to pull on a budget, stay at the local/regional level, just like ALL OTHER MOTORSPORTS. I can't take my local $20,000 stock car and run it in the Daytona 500, I can't take my local dragster and run against John Force at Pomona, but I CAN take my totally outclassed tractor and run at BG or Hillsboro if I want to. As a fan, I go to big time pulls to see big time equipment, the best of the best. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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OK
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I have no skin in this but I have to wonder,does this class have to go down the same path as DSS and ULSS before you start to look at ways to preserve it as a popular class or does it need to hit the bottom first. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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LEWIS
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Going backwards is a youg pup thats not been around long enough to no why whe have a limited pro a light pro and all these other classes that are knockoffs from bygone area as he speeks that priced itself out from to much forward progress no class numbers nobody pulls maybe that is progression |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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Easy fix
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Set the maximum hitch height at 17 inches or less That would put the focus on gearing and balance until they figure out how to use the power they are making. How much does it cost to lower a hitch. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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The light pro class still has a chance to save itself. Why wait till its broke. SSD is about toast and the the big pro stock class is next especially in region 2. Numbers are down in OSTPA also. Ohio used to be the hotbed for big pros.
What does it cost to build a top 5 light pro today? Billet rods, billet crank, recast head , good turbo, big pump, injectors etc , prolly got at least 70 k in just the motor, now lets put a chassis under it , tires, sheet metal , clutch, rearend , profab, cage blanket, prolly at least another 60k to get it on the track. Now what will it cost to maintain it thru the summer with all the busted parts. Add another 20k for a recast block if that goes thru. And some want more? There will always be a few that will spend the money however you need the rest of the pack to make the show. 38 light pros signed the petition for limitations which in my opinion didn't go far enough but its a start. That should tell you something.It gets old after awhile if all you're doin is writin checks and turning wrenches. |
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Re: $14,000.00 turbo......here it comes
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Your wrong
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I have this charger your blowing about. And it not even close to 14000.00!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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WHY does this KEEP coming up with the BEST class in the country!!!! DO NOT understand |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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I believe it was Albert Einstein who said. If you conduct the same experimental over and over again without changing the parameters the results will be the same. This isn't just about your little class. it's about the past 50+ years of how ntpa has conducted rule making policies (or lack of) gentlemen the convicts have been running the prison. You don't see John force saying we won't race because the new rules Graham lite has passed doesn't suit my team Evan Dale Earnhardt had to adhere to the rules (most of them haha) that NASCAR put down. get mad at me if you want but just think back a bit in history before you start throwing stones |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Going backwards
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The problem is, everyone that wants limits, want to move everything back to some bygone era. Come up with a way that you can make it work with out holding back forward progress and every one will listen. Why would anyone want to continue pulling with the same equipment for 50 years? Why would they want to go backwards 10 years? They want to continue to get better. They want to continue to grow. All of the NASCAR rules have been safety based, none were made in an effort to make it so that everyone could afford to run a Cup car on a hobby stock budget. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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NASCAR has not gained 200 horse power in the last 15 years they do that to keep a lid on it. That way they know every week they will get 35 to45 teams to race that means people in the stands. That guy with his 7$ beer and his 45$ tee shirt. It's about #and money France's are a lot smarter then any of us. seems the light pro class started well around 1600hp in 7or8 years are 2800?3000? A 75 % increase that will promote a lot more people to become interested say what you want think what you want it's still a free country but the enevitble the outcome will be the same #will fall |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Going backwards
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That is 35 to 45 total, that is not 35 to 45 per class. Would you be happy with 35 to 45 grand national tractors? If we change the rules the way you would like, will you pay the same money that nascar fans pay? What we call Cup cars started with around 500 hp they are pushing 1000 hp today, they have gained 50 mph or so in the past 20 years. Rubbing fenders at 200+ mph is getting a bit risky, slow them down to 175 mph and the racing is a bit more safe and a bit more interesting for the fans and makes NASCAR more money. NASCAR couldn't care less what it cost the teams, as long as NASCAR is making money. You want to make it where everybody can play, take all the weight out of the sled, make the track 300 ft and disqualify anyone who goes over 300 ft. Don't ad any weight for any class, every one pulls an empty sled. Closet one to 300ft but not over wins. Or just draw names out of a hat. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Horses
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Everyone thats wanting to not put limits are overlooking one huge thing---- YOU KEEP SAYING DON'T HOLD BACK PERFORMANCE OR INOVATION BUT THE PURSE IS THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN FOREVER-- NASCAR IS COMMONLY USED AS A COMPARISON SO IS NHRA-- BUT THIER PURSE HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY OVER THE YEARS-- PULLING HAS NOT !!!!!!!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Horses
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What i was trying to get across was the purse needs to increase if horsepower does accordingly. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Nascar and NHRA also do everything they can to keep the cars all as similar as possible. Pulling has that in most classes, but it doesn't need that in all of them. if you want to run the same thing as everyone else, pulling SF, limited pro or twd. Some of us fans don't want to see every class become a cookie cutter. And just too add to the payout references: the Daytona 500 and Louisville tractor pull were on the same weekend. The purse at Daytona was $20,000,000, the purse at Louisville is around $250,000. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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longtimer
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When you get right down to it, who is saying that Lgt PS has to back up X number of years in performance. I believe the answer is no one.
The point of Lgt PS proposal is to try to basically cap today's technology as it relates to horsepower. As technology continues to evolve and improve, Lgt PS performance will continue to increase, too, just like we have seen in SF and every other class since all classes have limitations, including the so called Unlimited classes. Limitation means to try to keep these, at least, 2 classes viable for the long haul rather than going down the same worn out SSD pothole road that literally has only those with super mega wallets, unlike the days of former when we saw lots of SSD competing in the 70's & 80's. Allowing any class to outspend each other, like SSD, has proven what to keep the pullers on the track and the fans in the paying seats? Yes, I like watching them and marvelling at how those engines can even hack what they are doing. But I would rather see several hundred less horsepower and twice as many pullers in the class and with no pulloffs. and Grubby, even with capping Lgt PS, we will still see the best of the best, just like all the other classes. Hopefully just a lot more of them than SSD, MOD, SSO, UNL, LSS have to offer. And Grubby, your Daytona vs. Louisville comparison is true $wise but that is also comparing a national consumer spectator base that all relate to a car versus a very small group of consumers that relate to farming. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/08/2011 Posts: 17 |
How can you say “[no one is asking to back up X number of years]”? The proposed turbo rule is literally backing up X number of years for those who have already surpassed those turbos. I think part of the reason many people don’t understand the backlash over these proposed limits is that those who aren’t actually pulling a light pro today (or even some who are) underestimate how many guys have already done the research, spent the time, and spent the money to reach current levels. You are literally asking those guys to take a step back and then saying you aren’t.
If you are truly wanting to take the long look, ponder this: everyone wants a cap because they worry about light pro becoming a 3,000 hp class. That is 100% achievable with a g-trim turbo. So, what are you going to want if this rule is passed and 2 or 3 or 5 years down the road they’re all tagging 3,000 hp? Another limit? This same exact discussion again? Another rule that asks the guys who are pushing limits to step back? |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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Fuzz you are 100 percent dead on, Going backwards speeks with a forked tongue that his moma has to hold down with a spoon every now and then and puts him on time out and no I phone for three hours |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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ALL IN U N D E R S T A N D S |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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So , lets say nothing changes , except they allow recast blocks. So the race for more power continues. As the P pumps are pushed harder and harder to supply the fuel for larger turbos, their reliabilty will come into question, so now we need billet pumps, don't want to stifle technology ya know. Now we start busting up the rearends, so now we need component chassis, don't want to stand in the way ofcadvzncement. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Going backwards
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So, lets say we do stand in the way ofcadvzncement. What happens then? What does tractor pulling look like 20-30 years down the road. We are already basically a vintage tractor show. What happens when we are pulling the same exact tractors 20 years from now? I bet, most farms, the pulling tractor is the cheapest tractor on the farm? |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Going backwards,
If the current quest for more horsepower continues, there won't be enough guys left to fill a class especially with 7 dollar beans and 2 corn. Why structure the sport around a few select with deep pockets. Check the pulse of your competitors and your spectators. It's getting weak. Looks like a bunch are out for this season |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Going backwards
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I agree with everything you said. But, will any of the ideas put forth so far really make enough difference to draw in any substantial amount of new pullers? If you limit the turbo on LPS how many people will build new? If you put a turbo limit or restrictor plate on SSD, how many new tractors will be built? How many new classes have been added intending to be the new affordable class and the future of pulling? The cheapest classes in pulling are hurting just as bad as all the others. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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Do not know Puller/Spec BUT U only THING going BACKWARDS !!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Relax Green,
I love this sport . Been around it for 45 years in one fashion or another. Not trying to re live the past , just trying to save the future. The competitors in this sport are mostly self funding and I don't expect that to change. Seen guys lose their farms, families etc. over this sport. Hopefully some will have the courage to make some necessary changes to keep this class/sport alive without being labeled a whiner or a poor loser or whatever else. Anyway best of luck to all! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
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Green, you're the one going backwards. You are trying to re-build the Pro Stock class with a 540 cu. in. motor. Do you think the rest of the LPS lass will go "all in" in this class? |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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longtimer
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Puller/Spec, your last reply = I am right there with you word for word except I'm a few years longer invlovment in the sport.
So, All In, let's do as you suggest. I assume you already are one of an apparent very few with that apparent big new expensive turbo. So let's approve that becomes the standard for the Lgt PS class. How long do you think that several, if not many, current Lgt PS pullers say, that's it, I'm done! Does that sound familiar with how some other former popular classes have supposedly progressed? If you do not get what I mean, all one has to do is look at 2018 Sandwich results for the SSD. 8 pulled in the afternoon. 6 pulled in the evening - well, actually 5 as I do not consider 14.97' a bona fide pull but rather another mechanical failure just like 2 others listed as Scratch. 5 of 8 tractors put on a show. Well actually 4 out of 8 put on a really good show. 3/8 of the class was broke. Not really abnormal anymore for the high horsepower very expensive class. As I said last night, I would rather see several hundred horsepower less and a nice full size class of each competitor pull and put on a real good show. But with what few Lgt PS pullers who really want to continue to push the envelope, will only in time result in the same destruction of your class as we have seen in SSD over the decades. "All In", is that what you really want long term for your Lgt PS class? I assume Mr. Wiederhold must be in your camp thinking wise too. I would like to see the questions posed to him answered. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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Long timer all this starts from a child big always wants to pick on little never no balls to pick on someone there own size in this case move up to the next level the talk of holding back moving forward and progress is all stupid we have different levels for all a 540 cube limits not holding back nothing when the next class offers 640 Why was this class started in the first place and what was its intentions some old timer in the class answer that although the class is not that old and already falling apart |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Start a new class with a limited turbo. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Counting tractors
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Yet ANOTHER grease burning tractor class???
Holy crap, you grease burners want a class for each tractor so you can all win! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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The light pro stock class has an excellent set of rules as it is right now. The 16mm p pump and cast head is capping the class based on attrition. Just as the cast chassis
is also. I don't like to see our class of tractors not showing up because of breakage but that is the choice of each competitor. When guys put on a big charger they all know the risk of breakage increases. But changing the rules to patch the next weak link is often the road traveled and is also the problem with classes getting out of hand. When we are lucky enough to get on a really good track the higher HP tractors may have an advantage but on most average conditions the 2200HP tractors have as good of chance at bringing home the win as the 3000 HP tractors at our 8500 lb. limit on 24.5s. That is why our class is exciting for the fans and competitors alike. Leaving rules alone may be the best option. No turbo rule, cast chassis, and OEM block. Al Paulson, Badger State Tractor Pullers. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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You're right longtimer!
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Longtimer, I don't think you will hear too much from Costler or Weiderhold, They've been busy putting their transmissions back together. They may have started a second job to pay for their Billet blocks. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 12/08/2011 Posts: 17 |
Longtimer,
You say "I would rather see several hundred horsepower less and a nice, full class." I am not opposed to that at all. My only thing is that I don't think any turbo rule I have heard proposed accomplishes that. A "g-trim" turbo rule, which is basically what is proposed currently with the NTPA, doesn't solve any of your concerns and it doesn't prevent the Light Pro apocalypse you claim is impending. There will still be guys pushing the envelope and still be broken parts. The only difference is that you have set the precedent that if guys push too hard and find new ways to make power, then we will have to revisit rules to bring them back. I agree that our show is just as good at roughly 2200 horsepower as it is at 3000 horsepower, but I recommend looking at real-life data (especially from the dyno, but also from the track) before suggesting rule changes. I just don't think this rule proposal accomplishes what you think it does. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 04/25/2008 Posts: 20 |
After reading all your post,I think the turbo rule will be a money pit. To help cap your class you need to lock down fuel to 16mm. bp and cam in oe pump bores.Fuel is the limiting factor.Years ago I put on MW turbo kits on 4010-4020-806-856 didn't change HP till I gave MORE FUEL. IF you want more hp from your diesel, what do you do TURN UP THE FUEL . Heat is what turns your turbo and to turn a bigger turbo you need more heat. To get more heat you TURN THE FUEL UP . This is a good class now, to keep it good for years to come I would lock fuel in and change weight to 8000 lb. thanks ron bultemeier puller/builder for over 60 years |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 02/13/2015 Posts: 9 |
Question what is the best way to tec pumps at the pull
Where officials can check them not trying to start any thing gust look for answers and 8000 pounds is not easy to get on some tractors without sacrificing safety in my opinion thanks |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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BMS Has IT RIGHT THE REST ARE SO OFF BASE THEY DO NOT BELONG ON THIS THREAD!!!
bms |
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You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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SilentObserver
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Couple questions for you Dave; How did all the red guys make 8000 SSD, with 4 turbos, 30.5 tires, not to mention they were using the original Puller 2000 10 ply. Also why today do the red light pros get in the SS class at 8300 if lighter weight is so unsafe? Esdon x 2, Dickerson, Blagraves, VanDorppe, Shaendorff, Earley, Burge and several others ran at 8,000. 8,000lbs makes it a driver’s class, are you not a driver? |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Registered: 02/13/2015 Posts: 9 |
Well read what he said 7500 pounds not 8000 they went two 8000 when to role cages where mandated and I have my opinion you have yours at least I put my real name on here don't hide it if you want to call me please do ill talk to you about it like to here your opinion |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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SilentObserver
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I read your post correctly. You said “8000 is not easy to get on some tractors without sacrificing safety”. Trust me sir I know how to read. I’m of the opinion this is a Motorsport, and competition costs money. So if you’re going to spend money you need to spend it on durability, easy access to parts and easier to work on. I would allow ALL classes to run component. The day is coming when scarcity of outdated rearends is going to drive it that way. So, what is so unsafe about 8000? |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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Lack of nose weight when using a cast rear. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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I know of 2 D21s that ran 4 chargers at 5500 an cast rearends, plenty of movable weight can be achieve at 8000. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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Then get ya a d21 and give it a whirl |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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Amazing, i simply stated that at 8000 lbs alot of weight can be attained an get a response like that, never ceases to amaze me how people react to the truth, an by the way one of those D21s weighted up to 7500lbs different times. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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Well you used a tractor that isn’t currently a relevant option in the class. Also in the days of 5500 lb supers it is also very likely that today’s light pros are making more power than these supers of which you speak. I’m not sure what you expected you would get for an answer but it is clear you are far removed from what it takes to be successful in the light pro class |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
and dibble had a large frame ih with a v8 and cast heads in 5500 in the 80s,sure seems like the can do attitude of pullers has changed to a cant do attitude |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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No. The reality is that what worked in the 80's is no longer feasible with the technology we have for making power today. Those of you trying to revive the 80's are what is keeping pulling from progressing and this board hopping 
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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And what started the particular topic was -- you said nor enough nose weight with cast rearend at 8000lbs - nothing was said about performance or the light pro class-- an one of the d21s was knocking on the door of 3000hp at the time. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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Well if the class was mostly comprised of D21’s with series 40 Detroit’s then things would be fine then. However that is not the case and nose weight is the biggest issue with dropping an additional 500 lbs off of the class. It costs roughly $8000 in Parts to gain approximately 300lbs of nose weight in an IH. This does not include assembly or machine work to further lighten the rear end housing. As power and torque increase the importance of doing these mods ramp up significantly and this is at 8500lbs. We do not pull in the 80’s anymore. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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Your right im wrong, sorry for my stupidity,the D21 ran a 426 an was about 2700hp an this was in the mid to late 2000s, don't know where you came up with the 80s, but your way more knowledgeable than me, so i stand corrected. |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Answer
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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Just out of curiosity, which tractor do you run an campaign, just like to know so I'll know what to look for an place my bet ? |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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!!!!!?????
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Answer---- im still waiting to here which tractor you run so i can no which one to watch, you were back an forth with me till i asked which was yours an " bam " you hung up the phone !!!! |
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Re: You’re a funny guy Mr. Armstrong
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Registered: 02/13/2015 Posts: 9 |
Well you have your opinion I have mine gust be up front put your name out there or give me a call I'm sure you have my number |
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Mr. Armstrong sir....... I will put my name out there when
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SilentObserver
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You fix your hitch angle........ |
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Re: Mr. Armstrong sir....... I will put my name out there when
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After all this bickering you guys still don't get it. This is not about you and your little tractor, it's about the class and the crowd. No one is going to see a class with 6 or 7 every night, you mite not be there yet but it's coming. History repeats itself every time when nothing changes .why do you guys think we're picking on you personally, we're not please wake up and help save this thing and not be the next step to its destruction . |
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Re: Mr. Armstrong sir....... I will put my name out there when
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Registered: 02/13/2015 Posts: 9 |
So now your calling me a cheat well put your money up and we will see it has been checked and is legal so matter of fact it was checked a fort this year so you have a lot of never saying something like that all you want to do is put people down don't have the nerve to put your name out there but hide and call someone a cheat I try to respect every puller that I pull with this gust shows me how much of a two faced person you are so please do put up the money ill be at dover so come on over and we will see silent observer. |
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Re: Mr. Armstrong sir....... I will put my name out there when
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Another Light Pro Puller
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Dave, I don't think you need to worry about "silent observer" protesting you. You need to have a NTPA license to protest someone and I don't think "silent observer" does. |
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Re: Mr. Armstrong sir....... I will put my name out there when
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 632 |
Having been on all sides of this, yeah the purse being paid didn't pay for much of the puller, never has for me anyway, as for the promoter well it takes several fans to pay a small purse and many sponsors and fans to pay a large one. I have made a little money and lost a little promoting. I guess if the pullers don't care about the purse and can pay for the sled and support people and equipment they can probably do without any fans and have a pull. Not many want to pay that much hook fee. What that has to do with the expansion or retraction of the light pro class perplexes me but I can say unequivocally that if you keep on keeping on their won't be many backing in to hook and then someone will try to reinvent the wheel and it will start over. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro guy
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My question is why is it everybody that does not pull in the class thinks they have the best idea how to run our class thanks for your opinion but stay out of it!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro puller also
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Exactly, if you want more limits, go run a different class there are plenty of them to choose from, the rules are written just follow them |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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light pro fan
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dont see how taking weight off the tractors is a bad idea think it would be a less expensive way to keep class manageable because driver smarts would be more important about getting the tractor down the track than writing a check for more horsepower supers used to be 7500 no reason a light pro cant be that weight |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Another Light Pro Puller
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Light Pro Puller Also:
If you are a Light Pro Stock tractor and you are running a Pro Stock Turbo, maybe you should be in the Big Pro Stock Class. They don't want any limits either, go pull it. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro puller also
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Not running a Pro Stock charger not running a component chassis not running a Billet pump, fuel is your limitation, don't have a problem with P 7100 pump and 16 mil plunger limit but who is going to police it, at 8500 lb 2500 horsepower or 3000 horsepower either will still win that has been shown time and time again, if the tech guys have time to check all these limitations than they should have time to check the current rules such as cubic inches heads Etc, the more limits you have the more expensive, if you can't see that you're just another keyboard puller |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro puller also
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Don't run Pro Stock charger don't run component chassis don't run Billet pump don't have a problem with 16 mil plunger limit but who and how are they going to police it if tech guys have enough time to check these new limitations then why don't they have time to check current rules such as cubic inch and cylinder heads and if you are a true puller you know that limitations add more expense in the long run, never going to make everybody happy just follow the rules that are already there and it will be fine |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Andy Girbach
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Well Mr Light pro guy, you fail to realize it's NOT your class! You sir are nothing more than a paid entertainer! You are no different then a music act, demo derby, motocross or any other form of entertainment! With that being said the class belongs to the promoter and the fans. Your class (as you call it) and pulling for that matter can be replaced anytime a promoter sees fit with another form of entertainment. People on here are voicing their opinions because they care and have passion for the sport! When the day comes nobody says a word and let's things just go with the flow, this sport is DEAD! 20 years ago Mr Bultemeier tried telling the wolverine club that there needs to be a cap (limitations) on the state/region ss class and only a small few wanted to listen. I remember Ron's parting words " if you don't do something now, you'll be pulling by yourselves"! We'VE watched the slow death of the ss class just as ron predicted because nobody would listen! When somebody like Ron that has 60+ years in this game talks you better damn well listen! He tried before voicing his concerns of the future of this sport and it fell on deaf ears. Don't make that mistake again. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 02/13/2015 Posts: 9 |
Light pro fan making class lighter is bad ideal because when it was 7500 supper class the didn't have the roll cages front skid bars and other safety equipment that we have now pullers would haft to run lighter weaker parts and that in my opinion that's a safety issue |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Light pro guy
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Well Mr. Andy Gorbach it is my class because I am in it you're not in it so it's not your class whether you watch it or not has nothing to do with you putting your two cents in for a class that you do not pull in and stay out of it! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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Its funny a bunch of I phone puller,s no it all,s .Limitation,s add more expense what a crock of @#$%& LOL,My wife limits me 50 bucks a week for lunch not 75 |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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Andy people have grown up to stupid to listen,What class did light pro branch of and why it didnt get started without a reason,Some of you light pro pullers answer that come on now.Im a fan who likes numbers and dont like driving a 100 miles to se 6 tractors in a class |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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TO: AndyGirbach DO U PULL IN THIS CLASS IF SOYOU HAVE A PROBLEM--- IF NOT DO NOT NEED YOUR COMMETS AT ALL!!!!
TO: Andy andy to |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
To green: When I say something, I'm man enough to put my name to it! I also do feel it's appropriate to comment since I'm someone that buys a ticket to see you entertain me! Mr green you're entertainer that needs fans buying tickets or you have no place to pull! Have you forgot how business works or did you miss that day in school? You sir might need a reality check if you think you and your tractor is bigger than the fan or promoter! Truth hurts sir. Have a good day! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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johnny
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I'm JUST a fan for the most part but wow. Whoever invented billet material is to blame for a lot of expense making or should I say maintaining HP. When I see a tractor now running in the Hot Farm class (mid-pack) that once in its life was a really top running Pro-stock I think that kind of tells the story. I think it's way beyond controlling it now. I say let them go until they're all blown up. Then start over. Yea right. I also set here thinking about all the money totally wasted and all the support companies making huge profits on these tractors. Look at the big time engine, turbo and pump builders that can't keep up with it all. That's the business to be in not pulling for bragging rights. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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binder butch
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Need more rules? Hell they don`t even enforce the rules they already have such as hitch`s, fuel, oil, etc.easy to check but look the other way. Seen this first hand could not believe it. So why have more. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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green
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You are not as smart as you think you are!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Andy it amazes me that after all this. some still don't see what has happened and what will if nothing changes. It's just like a bunch of mules around the water tank on a hot day. Some will drink and be perfectly fine while others would rather sit on there ass and dye of thirst |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
What amazes me fuzz is the fact pulling is a event in which it relays on the consumer (fans) to buy their product! When a consumer merely voices his/her concerns and told "It's not your class, stay out of it" it's really makes a paying spectator (consumer) that he/she doesn't matter! It's absoutley astonishing that egos have got this big to were people can't voice a concern without being ran out of town! I'm so happy to know that some of these competitors think the world revolves around them and the pure form of entertainment that they produce will automatically draw hoards of fans for the simple fact of the great product their trying to sell and great customer relations! SMH. This interclass fighting and fans be told to stay "out of it" on a pubic forum is not really a very good thing in a business aspect either! Just think if a Corporation, business owner or just a average Joe liked this class and wanted to maybe sponsor a tractor and/or throw up some contingency money for year-end points. That said Corporation/ business owner puts his marketing team together to investigate this sport for a investment and they happen to run across this chat forum and they see all the arguing and fans being told off! What do you think the chances of that business/ Corporation wanting to invest in this sport? Chances are slim to none! Thou pulling to the competitors is a hobby some fail to not understand it's also a business that has to have sponsors, promoters and most of all consumers (fans) to sustain a healthy and prosperous existence!! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Who is paid
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The spectators don't pay the pullers, no one does, unless they win.
If they win, they likely wont win enough to pay for fuel for their hauler. If the pullers relied on the spectators to pay for any portion of their expenses there would not be any tractor pulling. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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I've read some bad comments on here but the last one has to be about the worst fans pay the promoter and he pays the pullers any brake in the chain and it's finished. I guess it's time to put this post to bed since there are no more reasonable points to be made I hope everything goes well for those involved in the light pro stock class good luck Jeff Ludlum double j ag and express |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Dirtfarmer
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So the money that pays premiums just magically appears out of thin air? You know when you go to a pull how many places are going to be paid and what those premiums are, and that pulling is a hobby. If you can’t afford it, don’t get involved.
See how many folks show up to a pull with empty grandstands. I guarantee it would only happen once, and the promoter would be done. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Who is paid
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Well, we went from "pullers are paid entertainers" to "pulling is a hobby, stay home if you cant afford to do it for free" This entire thread was about trying to make pulling more affordable for the pullers in this class,then we take off talking about how well they are paid? If they are paid so well why is anyone concerned about what they spend? I am not complaining about the pay out, I am saying the guy that finishes in 15th is not a paid entertainer. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Dirtfarmer
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Show me your business plan that shows you can make a profit pulling, at any level.
Keeping costs down is a noble goal, but low cost and pulling, or any motorsport, don't usually go hand in hand. Someone is always willing to spend the money to get the most out of what they are allowed by the rules to use. And someone will always find ways to use the gray areas of the rules to their advantage. Always been that way, always will be. Not a part of this class, but really hope something can be done to keep it, and the rest of the classes, viable. I love the guys that are innovative and think outside the box, but unless costs are somehow contained, there will only be a handful of big money pullers left. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Mr. Who is Paid,
I would encourage you to attend a fair board meeting or better yet a fair convention and witness the process that takes place to garner a spot on the entertainment roster. Its a numbers game, profit and loss just like any other business. It takes a lot of money to put on a pull. The sled rental, grounds rental, insurance, track prep, track officials, purse money , entry trailers, entry clerks, scoreboard , announcer, portable scales etc, these are all paid by the promotor , who in turn is paid by the folks that walk thru the gate to see the show. When the stands are empty the business model collapses and fun is over and the next profitable entertainment venue is sought. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Who is paid
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It is profit and loss game for the promoter, it is 100% loss for the pullers. Pullers are not paid entertainers. they pay to entertain. Pullers in general have no desire to be entertainers all, paid or otherwise, they are competitors and just want to compete against like minded people. The fact that some people are willing to come and watch these pullers do what they love creates an opportunity for the promoter to try and make a profit. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Mr Who is Paid,
Don't you think the fans and the promotor provide you with the venue to pull with your competitors?. If the promoter and the fans disappear are you and your competitors willing to pay the aforementioned expenses just to be able to pull against each other. In all reality we as pullers need the fans and the promotors more than they need us. They can promote and spend their dollars elsewere. This thread got derailed somewhat however the original point was intented to say, sometimes adjustments need to made to keep the classes competitive without breaking the bank and keeping the fans coming back for more. Best regards to all and may pulling live on! |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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promoter
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I need fans to come to my pull to justify putting it on. No fans no pulling. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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I like the last few post well said Likewise.i dont suger coat nothing and dont give a crap who likes it or not pulling is going to the craps .No innovation people wining that couldnt stick there finger in there Hello buying there way to the top .Rules can be made to progress pulling and keep it alive but not by pullers to much involved and to many chicken poops that are afraid to voice and stand up for whats good for the class place some limits claimers on turbos injection pumps and such a 4000 dollar claim on a turbo 6000 on an injection pump some one claims your crap you give it up or never hook to a sled again Simple just some examples limitations dont make pulling cost more if written write that phrase is stupid if your credit card has a 500 dollar limit go over it and se what happens |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Rules or limits?
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How does having a $8000 turbo claimed for $4000 not make things more expensive?
How do you innovate with out spending money? If your credit card has a $500 limit, pay your bills on time and they will raise the limit. Are we talking about rules or limits here, rules are what you lay out when forming a new class, limits are what you impose after everyone has built within the rules. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Looking I
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Have a lot of super farm pullers moved to the light pro class, as this has taken over the discussions that used to be in the super farm class. |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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I dont believe any body will spend 8000 dollars on a turbo to get it claimed for 4000 how Stupid would someone be its a good thing that wasnt already a rule Mr rules ore limit seing you also couldnt understand the credit card limit used as an example telling you in black and white you can only spend this amount ,I could have used 10 thousand as an example just the same |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Rules or limits
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What makes sense about spending $50,000 or $100,000 to build a pulling tractor just to finish 2nd ? What makes sense about Spending any money on pulling ? I can spend $100,000 to build a 2nd place tractor or $104,000 to build a first place tractor? What makes sense about any thing grown men do for fun? |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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LEWIS
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You just made since if. If i new how to give a thumbs up you just got one ,Those prices are why pulling is in trouble and those prices were cheap for a limited class |
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Re: Light Pros see the light
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Binder Butch
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Your right I'm smarter just ask me |
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