Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 08:16AM

This is from the NTPA:

Attention Light Super Stock alcohol tractors entering the Cloverdale, IN event:
The following will be a test at/for the Cloverdale, IN event only. All alcohol Light SS tractors entered must be equipped with the following piping or they will not be allowed to hook. Any diesel powered tractors must be equipped with the standard indoor diesel pipe system.
​Note: If successful it will be used at Shipshewana, IN as well.

1. All alcohol Light Super Stock tractors competing at the Cloverdale, IN must be equipped with demountable exhaust extension that will discharge all exhaust horizontally rearward at a point four feet forward of the hitching device, at a height of 10 feet from the ground to the center of the exhaust extension pipe. Minimum of last two feet of piping must be parallel to the ground.
a. Maximum diameter of exhaust discharge not to exceed 10 inches. If two pipes are used, total not to exceed 10 inches.
b. Rear discharge end of extension must protrude rearward a minimum of 12 inches from rear brace holding extension to tractor or chassis. Brace must be secured to the tractor or chassis.
c. Exhaust extension must be 6 inches higher in the rear than at the front.
2. Waste gate discharge not required to be hooked into this system.
3. Excessive leakage and exhaust systems that collapse but do not fall off, are each a cause for vehicle disqualification.
4. A solid fire deflection shield is required on the top of the rollcage. Shield must cover the width of the flat surface above the driver. Shield to be made of aluminum or steel 0.060-inch thick and be secured to the cage. U-bolts or clamps may be used (no wire tires) to fasten the shield to the cage.
5. A standard 200 pound allowance will be given to the class, class will weigh 6400 pound.

What do you think?


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 10:18AM
I don't think I would want to be driving a LSS. Why waste your time and money on that bomb.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 01:00PM
Pretty sure that's not what he was looking for Larry. Thanks for sharing though. Luckily there are 100 or so other folks that don't mind driving them!
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 02:32PM
Ummm, I am not sure what to think about that. I mean, what's the purpose for it? And "demountable"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2019 02:36PM by Supertiquer.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 09:01PM
What's going to happen with all the raw fuel going out the stack into the system at start/warm up??? Can it ignite???
I am not hooking on to find out? If you want to protect ceiling, can mount a deflector pan higher above exhaust to deflect? Put slight elbow on exhaust pointing rearward?
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 09, 2019 11:37PM
Is this about the fumes for the fans or what's the reason. How much will it cost to build this setup for 1 hook. Why not just have another diesel class. Do they run TWD there.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 03:51AM
They used to run TWD there. Not exactly sure why the change to an additional tractor class. Used to be a nice mix of noise
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 05:26AM
For one I don’t know why they got rid of TWD’s and this idea is not going to work for one it will limit the amount of tractors that come because I feel like there will be a lot of less pullers against this
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 11:53AM
Brice Howell said the other night on Beer Money that they are going to alternate TWD and FWD due to air quality in the arena.


Gordon Cox

For The Love Of Pulling

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2019 02:10PM by For The Love Of Pulling.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 02:34PM
Why won’t the smoke tube work?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2019 08:57AM by 3 Foot Willie.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 07:42AM
The one line of the press release that stood out to me was " if this is successful we will use it at Shipshewana". And if it isn't successful then , sorry that you spent your money. And what would deem it"successful" nothing blew up. It removed 100 percent of the fumes, 20 percent? What's the metric to determine " successful? Does anyone have an idea of what this ( possible one and done) setup will cost? Seems like a winter pull that pullers and fans drive long miles to shouldn't be the testing site.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2019 07:47AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 08:03AM
Clarification. Looking at the drawing, it will NOT connect to smoke machine, correct?
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 08:59AM
I have seen this on Facebook as well as here and I'm confused, maybe someone can clarify for me.

It seems that the idea here is to get ride of MOST of the fumes put out by the LSS tractors without them having to do a full on smoke tube. From what I've been reading the biggest issue is during the spooling up of the tractors and that is obvious at any event these tractors compete at. They dump lots and lots of fuel into the air during this time. Most automotive engines are much more efficient throughout the whole process hence not thickening the air with alcohol fumes to the same extent. My first question is this; why would the fumes from this spooling up process be more likely to ignite in a smoke tube where it is being diluted with high volumes of fresh air than just going staight up into the air? What is going to be the ignition source? I've watched alcohol SS tractors my whole life and have never seen that tall plume of raw fuel ignite. It is very obvious at the NFMS when these tractors spool up, the raw fuel goes up into the rafters yet it never ignights.

Another thing I'm curious about is, how much air is getting drawn into the smoke tube? It seems to be a lot and if that is the case wouldn't the shear volume of fresh air vs raw fuel make the mixture to lean to light off even if there were an ignition source?

This may seem like a stupid question but with the speed of the air moving through the smoke tube would the fan move any fire that did happen out of the whole system within seconds? It sure seems like with the diesel tractors that system is moving a lot more exaust volume. I'm not sure how that works when you have an alcohol tractor at 90 lbs of boost at 7000 RPM vs a diesel at 250 lbs of boost at 4500 RPM. I just know that watching both it sure looks like a lot more exaust volume with the diesels. The point being with the alcohol tractors the ratio of raw fuel to fresh air in the tube would seem to be low.

I know my thoughts are a little off the wall but I'm just thinking out loud and trying to spark new ideas even though they might be uninformed. I will say this, in my opinion it is a worth while effort if the other option is no indoor alcohol tractors and that seems to be coming if this does not work.

S'no Farmer
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 10, 2019 01:18PM
Quote
mh49
Clarification. Looking at the drawing, it will NOT connect to smoke machine, correct?

I would say you are correct on that assumption. But I still don't understand what the "demountable" is all about. I mean because if this doesn't work are they then supposed to take them off immediately?
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They do it at dynos all the time October 10, 2019 11:58AM
Pretty sure Brent Payne and Terry Blackburn have dynoed a few alcohol motors with stacks being attached to smoke machines and nothing has blown up in the pipes. I don’t know if they were consulted in the design process but NTPA has excellent resources at their fingertips with guys like them that have experience with alcohol motors. The design is still going to put fumes into the building. The danger lies with the driver, with the smoke pipe stopping short of the smoke tube the raw alcohol is going to be spilling on the driver. Should a fire occur the fire suit will be doused in alcohol making it more dangerous for the driver. The fire shield may prevent some of it but definitely won’t stop all of it. On the flip side though, won’t be anymore ceiling tiles falling.
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Just another lls October 10, 2019 01:48PM
At this point this thread should be called lls pull off page that's all that is all it's about, yes I'm sure I will get mouthed about for posting this but you guys are the biggest whinny baby's ever do you realize that there are plenty of diesel farm tractor's out there that would love a chance like that and could bring as much color cause everyone wants to see acohol tractor's cause they make them every day, bet you wouldn't here hot farm guys crying like this for a chance of a life time Thanks Morgan's for the space I know you will check it address
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Re: Just another lls October 10, 2019 02:42PM
Quote
really
At this point this thread should be called lls pull off page that's all that is all it's about, yes I'm sure I will get mouthed about for posting this but you guys are the biggest whinny baby's ever do you realize that there are plenty of diesel farm tractor's out there that would love a chance like that and could bring as much color cause everyone wants to see acohol tractor's cause they make them every day, bet you wouldn't here hot farm guys crying like this for a chance of a life time Thanks Morgan's for the space I know you will check it address

And I still have a rating of 100. lol
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Re: Just another lls October 10, 2019 02:55PM
Nobody said anything about LLSS... This is about LSS. By the way hot farms don't bring in as much color as LLSS. Not even close.
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Re: Just another lls October 11, 2019 02:17AM
Always got to beat this LLSS thing anytime a good discussion on LSS comes around if all points of the compass in LLSS could agree on one set of rules then it would be there lol.
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Please stay on the topic. October 11, 2019 02:30AM
Let's try and stay on topic. This thread is about exhaust pipes for alcohol tractors.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2019 03:29AM by Jake Morgan.
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Re: Please stay on the topic. October 11, 2019 06:54AM
THEY HAD A COLLECTION SETUP LIKE THAT OF DESCRIBED IN IDEA #2, BACK IN THE DAY THERE ARE A FEW PICS AROUND.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 11, 2019 03:25AM
I understand that fumes are an issue but this doesn't look like the best solution to me. Is this really supported off the dash/hood? Probably not, which means guys will need to fabricate something that either goes off of the roll cage and way forward or build a framework that mounts to the belly bar and extends all the way up to the smoke tube. Neither is a great solution. As was already stated, won't raw alcohol load-up in the piping and then drip all over the driver when the boost starts to come up? Sounds great, a bunch of alcohol dripping all over the driver... good plan.

As my father mentioned, how much will this cost? minimum of two elbows, probably more like four elbows since almost every LSS has at least dual exhaust, a 7-7-10 wye collector, 20' of 7" pipe and a few feet of 10" pipe. Then the tubing/materials to support all that stuff. Now factor in your time to fabricate all this and make it "demountable" in-case it doesn't work very well. All of this for possibly one hook? Really? If it works then it MAY be used in Shipshawana? Is it worth it? How much does it pay to win? Again, for possibly one event?

Here's another quick question: "Rear discharge end of extension must protrude rearward a minimum of 12 inches from rear brace holding extension to tractor or chassis." Why? If it's 4' from the smoke tube why does it have to stick past the brace. What difference does that make? IT seems arbitrary, but maybe they have a good reason.

Idea 1a:
Just run them into a standard diesel smoke tube like the diesels and never shut the fan off. Run it 100% of the time to clear fumes and evaporate any raw methanol. Put a fire suppression system on the front of the smoke tube in the event of a flash fire (there should already be a fire suppression system on the front/inlet of the smoke tube anyways).

Idea 1b:
Run them into a standard smoke tube but... for a while everyone was running water injection (I don't know who is and who isn't anymore), just make them run a water injection line into their exhaust with a specified nozzle size to minimize the chance of a flash fire and to cool the charge of air.

Idea 1c:
Just run the same tube as a diesels that simply attaches to the roll cage (no extra bracing needed). Just make the last 4 or 6 feet perforated on the top side of the pipe or just remove the last 4 or 6 feet of the top half of the pipe. That way at least the bottom of the pipe acts like a trough/ditch and doesn't let alcohol drip or flames get too close to the driver. If it doesn't work you just cut off the last 4 or 6 feet and sell it to a diesel puller.

Idea 2:
Instead of making EVERYONE build something for $1000 or more, how about making a collector that attaches to the sled that extends forward. A giant collector that draws in some of the fumes. A simple aluminum box and some framework would be a solution that could work for both trucks and alcohol tractors. Sure there will be some exhaust pressure pushing against the box but it wouldn't be to difficult to make something sturdy and light.

These are just a few off the cuff ideas that seems like better solutions to me. The NTPA's idea seems like it was done to put ALL of the risk/expense on the pullers shoulders. I know if I had a LSS I probably won't even consider wasting my time with this until the design is proven to work and make a significant difference.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 11, 2019 01:10PM
Jake, where on the ntpapull.com website did you find such an annoucement?

Being a former alky SS owner/driver prior to the firesuit days, I know how bad the alky spewing from the exhaust stack feels on the skin and continues to sting for days.

Even with todays safety clothing and helmet/faceshield, I am NOT impressed with the proposed exhaust tube spweing exhaust and fumes a few feet in front of and above the driver. Pure recipe for a potential (big) personal accident. I think all the invited LSS drivers should boycott said requirement.

Now, why does the tractor's tube have to stop a few feet in front of the driver? Instead of perhaps a couple feet behind the driver, emmitting its fumes/fuel into the stadium air. Or is it possibly the sled owner does not want such effluent possibly effecting the sled's paint?

Be nice for the NTPA 'designer'/head official to come on here and state the reason for the 'tube system' and why the tube stops in front of driver.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 11, 2019 01:32PM
Quote
alky singe


Be nice for the NTPA 'designer'/head official to come on here and state the reason for the 'tube system' and why the tube stops in front of driver.

Very well said! I was thinking that very same thing.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 12, 2019 02:25AM
An addition of perforations in the pipe, similar to that found in a "full flow" muffler or on the tail end of exhaust systems for emission equipped diesel pickups, would allow outside air to be pulled in and cool the exhaust just above the "normal" stack height. Then run it all the way to the tube or cut it a foot short to let raw fuel out before the tube(it will all evaporate anyway from the amount of air flow if ran all the way into the tube). I'd be more worried about showering the driver with fuel than igniting fuel in the tube.
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Re: Cloverdale LSS exhaust pipes... October 11, 2019 10:35PM
How's the fumes that miss the smoke tube going to work out for the sled operator?
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