01:59:12pm, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
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More HP, less pullers
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
It sure seems to me that every time the NTPA opens up their rules in a class the number of pullers decreases. If limits are so bad, why then do the classes that have responsible rules show steady growth and the classes that have ever expanding rules show a steady decline? I realize that the select few that can afford the ever increasing cost of pulling always get their way. And the irony of this is that every time the HP goes up the track stays the same length and the sled goes the same speed. So what's the gain? Some times pulling seems like a leaderless ship floating aimlessly. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2019 01:01AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Paull
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"BINGO" "WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER", well said, every time I have built or have bought a new unit it is faster,more power and speed.Does not help the situation at all. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Same length
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Every time the hp goes up in drag racing the track stays the same length. Cars go faster, tractors pull more weight. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 09/10/2017 Posts: 60 |
Well said Dick......I think a maximum turbo inlet size and maximum injector pump size would help level the playing field and keep the sport more affordable. I am not a Tractor puller....but these two rules certainly helps keep the diesel truck classes close and competitive. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Team one
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You can say it is visually the same but I disagree, I can tell when something has nuts and when it doesn’t and I know what I’d rather watch , in certain classes I’ll take quality over quantity so to speak . |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
Same L. The problem with pulling is, unlike drag racing where the the higher HP does translates into a visual reality. Pulling a heavier sled translates into nothing. No visual sensation for the fans. The sport from a speed aspect is almost the same as it was 20 years ago. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Radar,............O'Dickie
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You can visually see 1-2 second increase from previous year on a drag run? 
Limited HP classes are great for local level,...…….on a national level I can't wait til a pro hits 5000. And they will...….. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Radar,
You may not be able to see that 1 or 2 seconds but you can read it on a time slip or more importantly the fans can read it on the scoreboard. No one knows how much more the tractors are pulling,most of the pullers don't even know. S'no Farmer |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Posts: 25 |
Sled is 32,000 LB dry 200 LB for the operator. And 2,000 for each block as I am sure you already know. I have filmed Unlimiteds with as much as 58,000 LBs total weight. I would love for communication to happen like I am running 4 blocks so 40,000 LBs would be told to the fans. Then when they see a more powerful class, "Now this class is pulling 44,000 LB which at the other end of the track is going to feel like 90,000 pounds!" Really educate the attendees as to what is going on. I love it when I can see the distance and speed. I think it adds a Drag Racing metric to the sport. Nothing like a Ben Ellis Jr or Peyton Davis going 33 MPH when everybody else is going 28. Will Whitt 703-626-4131 will@willwhitt.com WWPTV Video    
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Wanna know
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Dick,
When’s the last time you had a positive post. Everyone has different opinions, I get it. But holy cow. There is other ways of keeping the board busy. There’s a lot I wish was different but I’m not going to constantly gripe about it. I’ve noticed for some reason you constantly pick on the turbos. Why? I know couple things that’s going to drive me out of pulling. Complaining, accusing, gripping, and rule changing to level playing field for people that shouldn’t even try to compete in that class. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
I'm pretty sure I never mentioned turbos in my posts. In fact I know that I didn't. And I am very positive in regards to sensible rules. I just don't see the gain of always driving the cost of the sport so that it is out of reach for the vast majority of pullers. And what would you like to see different, do you think that by saying nothing it will get better on it's own? And thanks for your response, I value differing opinions. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2019 11:04PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Paull
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Point of Diminishing returns is an aspect of all motor sports,spending time,money and ect. Life is not a competition to conquer all,have all,do all,it is a series of choices with give and take.Nothing can be gained without an equal opposite action or cost."WHAT IS ENOUGH" ? We all have a value for this,real or fictitious, |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Same Lenght
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You can see the difference between 4.01 and 4.03 seconds? The problem is Tractor pulling is about the weight not the distance, The SS tractors are accelerating 50,000 + lbs up to 30-35 mph in 4 seconds sometimes less |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 12/31/2008 Posts: 101 |
Unfortunately even the class was limited to a turbo or pump limit pullers will find a way to make it expensive. I 100% feel the good intentions to save a class would be in vein. The next option would be more billet or titanium or some god awful expensive parts to create horsepower. Who honestly thought we would ever be at $15,000 pumps and chargers. We got to this point by trying to get around limitations. Super farm is a great example of this, turbos and pumps are changed like underwear to get around the smaller turbo rule. I have now idea how to “save” it but I do feel something needs to be done. I have been around pulling for over 20 years and I took a 5-7 year break and it was a eye opening and sad experience to come back and see how much the sport has died in the last 10 years. I don’t want to start anything but I will tell you PPL and NTPA have problems. Their customer base is getting older and the younger generation isn’t that interested and can’t afford it if they were. I have a hunch you will see a slow decline and slow sad death of pulling. The mistakes were made 20 years ago and the outcome is inevitable. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Like to know
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Has anyone ever stop to think that maybe the builders of these turbos, pumps, chassis, injectors, etc might be getting rich because they are charging way to much money. You can also think the dyno for the decline in pulling. Someone goes to the dyno and makes 50 more horsepower with Joe Blows pump or turbo and bingo everybody feels like they have to have, so the builder of this latest greatest turbo/pump etc sees this and they start to cash in on it. Alot of things have contributed to the decline of pulling. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Yup
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Your right on the builders, machine shops, ect. You mention tractor pulling and the price is higher - dont mention pulling and its a lot cheaper- been there and checked around - pulling has the highest prices and no guarantee |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Limit the big teams somehow. That’s what ruined NASCAR!!! |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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The younger crowd has shown greater interest in Diesel Truck Pulling vs Tractor Pulling. This may be due to the fact 40 years ago there was 8.5 [680/80A=8.5] small farms per square mile. Now you have 1 farmer every 2 to 3+ square mile. Also 40 years ago farm families had 7 to 10 children. Today most families are 2 to 3+ childern. So what does this all mean? Less Agricultural people who have interest in building Pulling Tractors. I also have run into Farmer's who think it is a sin to destroy a perfectly good farm tractor, to build a Pulling Tractor. Another thing that comes into play, "Disposable Income". The last 3 or 4 years have not been favorable for surplus income !!
Grand National, Super Grand National and Champions Tour should be for those willing to spend unlimited money on the sport they love. But at Regional and State hooks there should have limits so those wanting to pull can afford to compete. Just my thoughts! |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 03/17/2019 Posts: 65 |
All these points have merit at one place or another but remember this is still a show for the promoter and the fans. This is business pure and simple. If you want people to build tractors and participate there must be a fair playing field if you want spectators in the stands you must have something to offer the average person in the stands does know the difference between a 2800 hp tractor and a 4000hp tractor if the sled is set correctly so for region and state level pullers put aside some of the ego and bs and go put on a decent show and let grand national do what they want |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 03/17/2019 Posts: 65 |
I believe that's one reason llss keeps gaining ground every year. it's by no means a perfect solution but for the average working person (this is why I'm building one) it offers a chance to still have fun and not as likely to cause a divorce or bankruptcy remember this is a sport |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Machinist by Day
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I agree with you 100%. I remember the day when you could spend $25 to $30k on a super farm and possibly win the class on any given night. Now $20k will get you a fuel system and Perhaps a turbo. The dyno has turned into a very valuable tool in pulling and is a must to be competitive at any rate these days. Times have indeed changed not for the better. Advances in technology are a wonderful thing.....for those that can afford it!!! |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
I'd like to know how you're coming up with whatever constitutes "way too much money" when you apparently don't work for any of the firms that are supposedly charging such exorbitant prices. You ever build something outta nothing and then put it into manufacturing? Any idea what the costs are associated with that? Why is it so horribly unfair to charge what the market will bear for a part that performs better? To pin the decline of the sport on builders because you think they're "getting rich" on your pocketbook...that's pretty insulting to builders, and their intelligence/experience. No wonder you didn't sign your post. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Like to know
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Not everyone goes to the dyno to tune there tractor or truck in. I realize it costs money to build something from scratch but after you got it programmed in your machine it's there. Someone answer how much a intercooler on a pro-stock cost. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 761 |
"but after you got it programmed in your machine it's there"
Do you really think the first $12k turbo paid for the machine, the time to program it, the tooling, and materials? |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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That guy
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EXACTLY!! That is like saying that farmers only work 8 weeks out of the year. If builders are getting rich or the whole machine shop thing is so lucrative, why don't you go and set up a machine shop and get rich right along side of them. I don't see any of the builder/suppliers in Fortune 500. BTW y'all don't have to buy the latest and greatest every time something comes out. You chase 5 HP like you're gonna put 50 feet on a competitor. If you think a shop is ripping you off because you are a puller, find a shop that doesn't rip you off or learn how to do it yourself if you don't think their time isn't worth it. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Excellent post! |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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My Concern Is
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I'm more worried about the lack of fans in the stands than more horsepower and less pullers...Some of the national pulls on TV show half empty stands...Most of the younger generation is in to social media and doesn't care to get their hands dirty...A teenage kid working on a car,truck,or tractor is almost a thing of the past..Lots cant even change a tire or shift a manual transmission..Trucks are sitting in my area because they cant find quality drivers...Car,truck,and tractor dealerships are having problems finding qualified mechanics....Just about all forms of motor sports are going to die a slow death.....The farms in my area are getting huge and the few young kids on them are too busy to even think of pulling-racing etc..
I attend lots of state level pulls and theres still enough pullers but lots are over age 50...Half the pulls still have decent crowds but the other half dont have enough to pay to put the pull on..If it wasn't for generous sponsors lots of towns would no longer have pulls..I can remember years ago when my town had 1500 or more people at a pull...Now 600-700 is about it..I try to get friends to come watch a pull and they aren't interested.... |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
There's a lot of promoters out there who refuse to accept that what worked 25 years ago to get butts in seats doesn't always work today. You said it yourself...kids are in to social media, yet it hasn't dawned on the promoter that maybe they'll actually connect with those kids if they USE social media to get their attention instead of whining about lazy snowflakes blah blah blah. Furthermore, there's a lot of promoters who keep hitting the same local businesses year after year and never going after new sponsorship dollars. How many times do they think they can squeeze blood out of a turnip? If they're not actively seeking out new opportunities with new sponsors, things will inevitably go downhill. At the core of some of this is complacency. If you're not continually improving to offer a better experience for attendees...somebody else will. (Rant not directed at you...I'm in a mood today.) |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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thinking
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Every single tractor class that I know of has been made High dollar to get the most HP. The greed for 1st place really has ruined pulling for even the entry level classes. Just look at East Coast 466 Hot farm class. Was an affordable class to jump into from a stock class when it was started. They had a 2.8 box turbo rule. Once they went to a 3" the bull was let out of the barn and now your basically running a heavy limited class. More expensive pumps, coolers, engines, turbo etc.. Oh yea now you need the builders and dyno too. I like the old days of home spun engineuity. As far as fans in the seats that is some what location dependent. Diesel trucks and the look out she's coming apart gas trucks seem to be the biggest draw where I'm at. Just my 1/2 a cents worth |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Quick Buck
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What needs to happen, is a claim rule. There are some pulling clubs doing it. But the circle track world has depended on claim rules for decades.
And guess what, they work! |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Wondering about it
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Not sure how it works, please explain. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 03/17/2019 Posts: 65 |
Max Simpson to us that 30 yrs ago hear in Michigan. And he was rite |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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LEWIS
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A claimer is where you put a price on something say a 1000 dollar claim on a turbo that stops anyone from spending over that because you can put up the 1000 and take there turbo |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 03/17/2019 Posts: 65 |
Yes but as in horse racing you don't cut up the horse these smaller more regulated classes mite benefit from some of these things. After all if you're going to go out and spend a 100000.$ plus you should be in a class that reflects that investment. Many will whine and complain about what I bring up here but if we want this sport to continue. we must have classes like llss hot farm and other reasonable cost classes for the average person to participate on the state and regional level. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
There's no need for a claimer rule. If rules in place and get very detailed and have clubs and tech men follow through with the rules in place. We go through are rules a make sure there are no gray areas , because they will find them |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Posts: 25 |
These are some good friends of mine. And I talk to them regularly. One puller told me, "these are some of the most tuned vehicles around." They can weight down and run Pro Farm, they can run Dragon Hot Farm or Pro Farm depending on weight and turbo. With 30 minutes of alteration, they can go pull anywhere and be competitive. You will not jump into the 466 Hot Farm class if you do not know what you are doing. It is not an entry-level pulling class. That would be a Dragon Hot Farm or Altered Farm type class. These East Coast guys want to pull and they have options to run up to 60 times a year if they want. There are some newcomers in that class though are holding their own. Because they have taken their knocks and now are knocking back thinking of a D-21.
I have seen the East Coast 466 guys come in and wipe out the competition and I have seen them fall to the middle top of the pack and to the back of the pack. I have seen that with the Light Limited turbo guys as well. They do not win every time out. But they will give you everything they got. That is also true for the 8500 LB Mod Turbos and 7700 LB Light Limited Turbos that has several places they can pull. You could easily find 40 hooks with those classes if you travel a little bit. As a puller, you get to decide what class and budget range can one fit into and afford and be competitive in. And there will always be a kid that went to UTI or Wyotech that will come in an wipe up and make you think, "What in the world just happened." You cannot stymie innovation and taking the rules and building to spec and making it work with new ideas by saying, "We need to rule hawk the crap out of that?" You shouldn't change, because 9 times out of 10, that is the guy who is moving up and using the class as a stepping stone to something bigger. You should tech every winner 100% of the time! But that needs to be a rule and not willy nilly decided on the spot. The Altered Farm class I alluded to is a Box Turbo class weighing 12,000 LBs. Watch any videos of mine on Facebook [[url=https://www.facebook.com/WillWhittProductions/playlist/509382772994901/]WWPTV Dragon Motorsport 12,000 Altered Farm Playlist[/url]]. Any puller can buy the turbo from another individual and then that person has to get a new one. All turbos are built to the same spec, then sealed and tagged. And no one has bought another's turbo that I have heard of. And this class is terribly competitive. It is what a starting class needs to be. Will Whitt 703-626-4131 will@willwhitt.com WWPTV Video
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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Let’s set a few things straight. The turbo rule for East Coast was changed to exactly match the Interstate turbo rule. It is not a 3.0 inch turbo. 2.8 slug, exhaust housing dimension limit and a T-4 foot. It was also changed due to one or more pullers using a turbo that was modified and not the box type turbo that the rules specified. The new turbo rule is very easily policed and has been a great improvement for our class. Some of our pullers elected to buy new turbos but several of us modified the turbo that we had and have been very competitive. This was still a very affordable option that allowed us to pull with several other organizations and be able to finish very strong where ever we pull. In a lot of cases we are competing against 540 cubic inch machines. The pullers in our class are friends, support each other and strive to have their machines ready perform at every pull. As far as the comment about inter coolers, injection pumps, etc., not sure what you are referring to, the rules concerning these items were never changed and have been in place since the class was put together.
Say what you will, I am proud to be a part of this class, the friendship, support and the fact that we drive encourage each other to be better pullers is second to none. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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My comments were in response to a post from Nov 1.
Will Whitt, I thing that you were spot on with your post. Thank you for your support. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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thinking
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Not cutting down East Coast Hot farm or Interstate just stating that it's a high dollar class if you want to be in the top of the class. Special built tractors. big cc pumps, vendor built trannys and expensive turbos. In other words it's a vendor class. The more you spend the better you run. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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I think that is motorsports in general, it’s very competitive and a lot of passion involved as well. The cost of building a competitive pulling vehicle depends on a lot of things. It’s up to the individual to decide how far they are willing to take it. I have been around pulling a long time and have watched so called stock classes dominated be red tractors because of the ease and parts that are available to make those motor perform amazing. Not picking on any one brand just saying to be competitive with other brands you have to spend more to make the same power. It depends on your personal competitive nature, if you want to bring a knife to a gun fight that’s your choice. With today’s technology the competition has leveled but it comes at a price. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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East Coast Fan
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The Hot Farm class has a pretty good bunch of guys, but the East Coast powers at the time had an opportunity to learn from the Interstate Pro Farm class over the years and make turbo and pump changes that would be more affordable with less controversy on tech, potential cheating, durability, etc...
It would of made it more appealing for someone looking to get themselves into the sport. These limited turbo classes could have saved themselves a ton of headaches with chargers and gone with a true 3x3 box charger (GT-42, S-400, etc...) Just my .02 cents, but I also understand that some don't want to have the same thing as everyone else. However, in a limited class, that's the game you have to learn to play. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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thinking
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Amen |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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I know I as a fan have lost interest due to small classes, and the classes we do have 2/3 don’t make it down the track. There has to be a happy medium. |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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The governing bodies need to figure something out or pulling is dead, because I wanna be a rabid fan, but once I get there I wonder why I spent the time and money |
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Re: More HP, less pullers
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What is the interstate pro farm turbo rule, 2.8 restrictor plate, what turbo are most using, thanks |
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