03:59:20am, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
|
Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Wheeler
|
Does anyone else agree that if there is an rpm limit rule then there should be a cubic inch limit? Because without a cubic inch limit the tractor with the biggest engine is more likely to win, and some tractors you can get more cubic inches out of than others. I feel like to make a class fair if rpms are limited then cubic inches need to be too. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 09/04/2018 Posts: 41 |
Simply put: no.
There are too many other variables to consider. Turbo size (air) is the most "equal" way to try and govern a class. The perception of "biggest engine always wins" is from all the small blocks that got beat by big blocks back in the day and continues to present time. Truth be told, it has to do with how the tractor is setup and what gets the power to the ground the best. Not to mention there are a lot of sleds that are turning into "drag race" sleds rather than "lugging" sleds, and at that point it's just basic physics with who can go the fastest before the sled tries to pin them at 300ft, to which the momentum (force) will carry the fastest tractor the furthest forward for the win as tractor weight should be the same. People then argue A pump vs P pump. CC's are CC's... you can make plenty of BIG modified A pumps that will put just as much fuel out as a modified P pump does. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 04/07/2008 Posts: 161 |
Spot on. Couldn't have explained it better. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Setup
|
"The perception of "biggest engine always wins" is from all the small blocks that got beat by big blocks back in the day and continues to present time." So what you are saying is, the perception of the biggest always wins, comes from the biggest always winning? Or are you saying, cubic inches really don't matter, so there is no need for the larger motors. Properly setup , more power will always win,otherwise it isn't properly setup. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 238 |
Spoken from someone that has always pulled with large displacement engines |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Super Farmer
|
Obviously bigger displacement does make a difference, if it didn't then why would you john deere guys be using big blocks at 640+ instead of a 404 or 466? I agree with wheeler, to make a class fair and right for everyone there needs to be a cubic inch limit especially for classes with rpm restrictions. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Antique puller
|
Cubic inch limits definitely need to be a thing in naturaly aspirated classes with rpm limits, like that heritage pro stock class at gordyville. Just going to be a class of who's got the most cubes just like any other no pace antique class. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 02/08/2019 Posts: 3 |
Indiana pulling league has 3000 rpm 10 mph 12,000# class we have no tire limit, no cube limit, no turbo or pump rules. Any tractor can win any given night. |
|
Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Pull fan
|
Big blocks definitely dominate against smaller cube engines in low rpm classes. The smaller engines have no chance at all. To 4230, the key ingredient in your post is "10 mph". Do away with the speed limit and watch what happens. Just my $.02 |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Pull fan
|
One more thing. If cubes do not matter, then try to take a 540 or smaller and try to run with the 640 super farms. You might get past the bottom half of the class, but good luck catching the top half! |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 02/18/2018 Posts: 243 |
You probably need to invest in a nitrous bottle or two if you run a 540 in SF… |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
“There’s no replacement for displacement “ as the poet once said. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 241 |
Cubic inches or cubic dollars, only 2 ways to make horsepower.
Or both. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Small time puller
|
I see some smaller cube engines beat the big ones. Just dont believe everything you hear. I know some guys running smaller engines and do quite well against the bigger ones. Just sayin |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Math teacher
|
466's get 3,000 RPM max and that is your baseline. 531's get 2,633 RPM. 426's get 3,282 RPM and may require a steel flywheel. 414's get 3,377 RPM also steel flywheel. This is fair and it works. The biggest issue is maybe the enforcing/teching because of the differences. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
trust me
|
You'll never ever enforce it. Too complex. Simple rules or no rules are the best. Run xxx cubes in a class and run xxx cubes in another class and there will still be cheaters but easier to enforce and less headaches. Complicated rules take the "fun" out of pulling for everyone..... |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
plum krazy
|
TOO MANY RULES AND A LOT OF TECH WILL NEVER WORK |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
reality
|
if youre saying cubes don't matter, then you are obviously an ignorant arrogant moron that cant build a big cube motor to save his ass.. bigger cubes will 98 percent of the time win without a doubt if it is built correctly! if you are bigger cubes in the class than most others in the class and not winning then you my friend need a new engine builder or need to hang it up. fyi I am comparing the jd and ih 466 to the almighty king of all kings jd 6030. I am a john deere puller myself and think the 6030 should be in a class of its own like down in tenneesee with the usa pullers. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
No way
|
6030/5010/5020 should NOT be in a class of their own. Then you have a class of four 6030's that make stupid power, cost stupid money, and have zero other places to pull aside from Gordy. We have a bbjd and get beat all the time by small blocks of varying color. That newish 11k class in Kentucky (I believe with KITPA) has several small blocks that beat up on several big blocks every week.
If you have rules that are followed you can tame them. All the cubes in the world don't mean a thing if you have a 2.6 rule. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
I'm in that 11k altered farm class. There's several small blocks that run great and tough to beat. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Where can I find rules for that class I may be interested |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
I have last year's rules. Email or message me and I can send you them. Only difference this year is 480 CI and above or anything with a P pump is 2800 rpm instead of 3000. Because of insurance, helmets and fire suits are required for all classes. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Do they allow a v8 Perkins |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
Yes. You'll have to run 2800 rpm but legal to pull. The class is still trying to find the ways to make it fair for everyone so the rules are only good for one year. At the end of the year there will be a meeting to discuss any changes. |
|
Re: Big blocks vs smaller cube engines
|
Registered: 04/07/2008 Posts: 161 |
Aren't you just a bucket of sunshine and positive energy. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Same Here
|
I pull in a 12 MPH Hot Stock class at 10500 with rules similar to yours except for 20.8 tire limit...Big cube JD's and and my big cube IH have been beaten by a 436 IH...If there was no speed limit the big cube tractors would prevail most of the time.. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
As big block deere stated, cubic inches don't matter if you limit air. With today's drag race sleds it's all about who goes the fastest, not who has the most cubes. If it's a lugging sled, then cubes play a big factor. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Wonder why
|
If cubes dont matter and equal air is the answer. Then try to do what pullfan said above, try to run a small cube engine against the superfarms and see what happens. They all have 3x3 turbos. Let us know how that works out for you. I think you'll get your eyes opened. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
I'm speaking from experience in a farm stock class with a 2.3" charger limit. The only thing that matters is speed. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
plum krazy
|
I agree,-- however it takes HORSEPOWER To make Speed !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
No
|
It takes torque to make speed. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
plum krazy
|
Well to be 100% correct,-- it takes both,horsepower to get there,torque to keep going. now if you want to argue facts,please refrain,combinations of both are every where,you can not have one without the other. I have seen it said before,speed and power gets you to the wall,torque decides how far thru the wall you go. And mass and weight matters,however we pull classes with limits so that is another game to be played. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
No
|
Actually torque isn’t even a factor when you hit the wall how far you take it is determined by mass and it’s momentum at the time of impact. Torque is what starts the load in motion. If air is limited and weight is higher you are forced to use torque which is derived by cubic inches and is the definition of success in superfarm |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
plum krazy
|
I knew that refraining was impossible,- so argue by yourself,too many variables to make a one statement covers all,bottom line,both parts are needed to do any work,which is the definition of hp,not torque, |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
xxx
|
I beat higher torque traCTORS ALL THE TIME WITH MY sMALLER ENGINE MAKING MORE HP,- EXPLAIN THAT |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
No
|
XXX- in what class? |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
LEWIS
|
USE a short torque wrench and tighten a head bolt to 160 pounds and then grab a more cubic inch long torque wrench with that same horse power arm you just used with that short one LOL dont lough at that COMPARISON gravity came from a apple falling off a tree hitting Newton in the head |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
plum krazy
|
now a new dimension,leverage,length,angle and ect. - why do they limit drawbar angle? |
|
Small verses big
|
12 valve puller
|
All I can say if you think you can take a small cube engine can run against larger ones. Bring your smaller cube engines down and try your luck against the guys who run 3000rpm "Farm Stock" tractors at Glenford and other pulls in southeast Ohio I've been to. I am always amazed to watch them run at the end of the night after trucks are finished. Quite impressive in my eyes. I'm glad I leave my "Farm Stocker" at home and stick to my game. I dont know what they run down here, but I'd bet they are not 466s. Just my opinion. Good luck. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 04/29/2011 Posts: 32 |
Can only speculate for tractors, but my experience In the Semi class, small cubes can’t keep up. Larger cubes keep a given turbo out of surge longer at the end of the track. Having said that, we’re using stock castings. In theory: same turbo, same head flow, spinning the little engine harder, should equalte. But I bet it won’t. My $.02 |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
trust me
|
If big cubes don't matter then why all the whaling and crying when a 6030 shows up in a farm or hot farm class. If it doesn't matter then the small blocks should just say I'll kick his butt. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
no worries!!
|
It really makes no difference anyway any how,- too many brush pulls with no rules and way too many places with rules where very few if any are followed,so run what you "BRUNG' enjoy the scenery going and coming,enjoy a brewskee,a dog,a burger,laugh,make friends,share some blue,learn something new and have fun,makes little difference where you go,same o same o,checking a turbo with a slug,-- big deal if the engine is bored and stoked,in this day and age the Honor system is long gone for many.Whining and hoping for fairness is a pipe dream,so much available to bolt on,so many products with easy to apply power,sooo many more ideas then any group or club can police, not always does the biggest baddest win,-- but you might as well bet on the big cuz the little is at a mostly big disadvantage.In the old days when not a lot of money was spent,big sometimes meant crude, and rough around the edges,now when big is perfected like many little engines with boo koo bucks thrown at it,the end results are much different,egos are big,pocket change for some is all we have for others,play the game as is and hope for some luck,fun and stop looking for anything resembling fair. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Just a thought
|
Just wondering if those small blocks are really 466. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Georgee
|
I am pretty sure some are 540 -570,640,we buy old engines from guys building for more power,just saying. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
I am getting to the point I would rather see lower power vehicles go down the track then people pushing the limit and 2 or 3 of a class of ten actullay going down the track. Don’t get me wrong, power is awesome, but half the time 2/3 of the class can’t get down the track |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Wonder how
|
Someone help me out here. I can not understand why or how a smaller engines can even begin. To keep up with what I have read in this and other posts about how big some of the big engines really are? Its against the law of physics. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
nevergiveup
|
First of all the power needs to be usable,and reliable and it has to be able to be harnessed so it can be gotten to the ground,setup,and many factors combine to win. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Horsepower is the product of RPM and Torque divided by 5252.... thus a motor turning a max of 3500 RPM that is putting out 2000 ft-lb torque would have 1333 HP. A motor with more displacement turning a max of 3000 (per rule book) putting out 2400 ft-lb of torque would have 1371 HP. Thus, the idea is that by varying RPM you can balance the power. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
wow
|
Are you a physics professor ? Now try to get those stars aligned. He Ha. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Ha... it’s basic science |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Just a thought
|
Like I said earlier wonder how many of those so called small blocks are really 466? It's to easy to take a Deere or IH to 540 or 570. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
In the know
|
I know of some True 466s running with the big boys. They do pretty well too! Maybe not win every hook, however they got their share. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
What I Know
|
In a pulling association near me the Pro -Field 3000 RPM big cube motors used to beat up on the 466's....So they gave the 466's another 500 rpms and they started beating up on the big cube engines...Now there isn't a single big cube engine left pulling in that class and 4-5 of them were parked.. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Math teacher
|
Well, if the big cube motors were 543 cubes running at 3,000 RPM, that jives with the 466's running at 3,500 RPM. But if they were 619's, then …… What turbos were each allowed ??? and the 3500 RPM tractors had to have a steel flywheel, right ?? |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Calculate hp
|
Ok Math teacher. What kind of hp does a 466 make at 3300 rpm and a 3 inch turbo? |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Calculate hp
|
Also figure for same parameters in a 540. Please. Thank you |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
What I Know
|
All tractors must have a steel flywheel...3 inch max turbo on intake side... |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Math teacher
|
Mr. Calculate, please read my previous post from Nov 27th. Thank you. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Calculate
|
I did. It reads nothing about hp numbers. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
5678
|
there is NOOOO formula for hp that way,--too many unanswered factors |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Calculate
|
I figured Math teacher was smart enough to calculate hp. Based on his posts above I figured he knew a lot about this? I know I'm not s.art enough to do so! |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
6789
|
dollars X dollars x DOLLARS = HP pretty simple really !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
1155
|
That formula my friend is exactly what is wrong with the sport!!! To address original topic. I totally agree that all classes should have cubic inch limits, regardless of rpms. Almost every motorsport has cubic inch or cc's rule for given classes. Why do you thing most sanctioning bodies have them included in their rule books? Because that is one of the easiest ways to help keep things on a more level playing field, that's why. If you guys out there brush pulling, and some organizations don't see the light and do something to address this issue, you will soon have no competition, then the low numbers showing up to pull will certainly have a negative impact on the event holders decision to do away with your class and put in a different class that has better numbers.I see it happening all over the place! Just some food for thought. Think! |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
hotfarm
|
Right on !!!! |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
0000
|
Maybe - at the highest levels,but in many lower hp classes,someone is always ready to spend to keep up with the "JONES,SMITH'S OR ANY WANNA BE)" being top dogg is what we like,strive for and seek,since the first two Cave men sought to control the catch,capture the woman or dinner,there has been competition,-- it will continue to the end of time. |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Run what ya brung and hope it’s enough
I’m just thankful to get to hook to a sled anymore the rules are running pullers off not the lack of I get the same RUSH for 15 seconds whether I win or finish last or mid pack what happened to doing it because you enjoy it |
|
Re: Rpm rules and cubic inch rules go together
|
Amen bbailey, that is the wisest advice I've yet to hear on this site. |
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,561, Posts: 229,570, Members: 3,319.
This forum: Topics: 37,055, Posts: 225,834.
Global: Topics: 38,561, Posts: 229,570, Members: 3,319.
This forum: Topics: 37,055, Posts: 225,834.
Our newest member BadHabit2
