07:37:33am, Thursday, April 25, 2024
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Roclwell DSS question
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
The Friday DSS results show several Full Pulls but no pulloff. Is this the session where when Burge pulled 400 feet? |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Registered: 11/22/2008 Posts: 181 |
Yes, they split the pot so they could all come back Saturday night. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Team one
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It was a great decision, I was glad to see almost all of them return for Saturday night. |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Rockwell DSS class, Friday Night: Longest distance: Burge 400'. Demers: 332.68. Difference- 67 feet. (Demers didn't hook Saturday). Farley USS, Saturday Night: Longest pre pulloff distance: Blackbourn 364.87. Demers 309.2. Difference: 55 feet. (Demers didn't hook Friday). Smokin' Hot Deere was closer to the farthest alcohol tractor at the PPL U/SS class than to the farthest pulling diesel tractor in the NTPA Rockwell DSS class. Just one more data point to add to the accumulating set of information that it's time to combine the heavy diesel and alcohol tractors. Even if some promoter wants to run both together but separate points/purse, that's fine, but it needs to happen. I really wish Ross hadn't had issues at Greentown. That could have been another data point, but I don't think anyone using either fuel would have beat Jeff Hirt that night. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2020 12:12AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Team one
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That’s basically useless data if you’re trying to compare, they were 2 different tracks on 2 different weekends, the only common denominator was smoking hot Deere, besides that no one he ran with in Rockwell was even in Farley with the exception of the silver bullet who pulled first in Rockwell and then the sled was reset, but keep pushing this agenda with skewed info, they have had their chances to run together and they don’t want to! |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
I wasn't at either pull, but you may want to check your facts. If Silver Bullet was in Rockwell, it would have been as an exhibition hook. He isn't legal for DSS and Rockwell did not run the Open Supers. Correct, about different tracks and weekends, but also correct about the common denominator. The common denominator is the point. Add to that Ross winning a PPL hook last year, the closeness of the combined NFMS class, and several other passes over the last few years (Burge @ Bowling Green, Beck in Michigan, etc). What do you think my agenda is? |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Team one
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You weren’t there and you want me to check my facts? I was in Rockwell and the Bullet did pull Friday night as an exhibition just before the SSD class, the sled was then reset, you agenda is pushing to combine the 2 classes , let’s face it the sso guys dug their own grave and now they want to play in the SSD guys sandbox because they pushed all their own competitors away, that being said the bullet did not exhibition Saturday night because some of the SSD guys didn’t want him there, I have a feeling they showed up just to push it further and throw more fuel on the fire. |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Thanks for the clarification about the exhibition pass. I highlighted one sentence in the quote. It was the diesel guys who split the class, not the alcohol pullers. I remember going to Tomah in 1999 and the President of NTPA member state Iowa Tractor Pullers Association and his son showed up and never unloaded to protest. Buss was also there and didn't unload Friday or Saturday but did hook in the Sunday night session. A number of diesel SS pullers boycotted that year, including the King of Smoke. The next year NTPA added the DSS class as a separate class. Did the alcohol tractors have a performance advantage in the late 1990s? I would say yes. Do the alcohol tractors have the same performance advantage in 2020? I would have to say no, they do not based on all these bits of data that are accumulating. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2020 03:54AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Team one
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I’m aware of how it all went down , what I’m saying as the 2 classes existed separately since then the alcohol guys killed their own class, mostly due to pushing a select few out (903s) and now they have basically nothing, but that’s another can of worms that’s been discussed on here throughly, I don’t agree with them trying to “hijack” the SSD class to make their own class valid after they literally kicked half of them out . |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Posts: 1,160 |
I think most of the Alky guys are alright with running one association with the large group of tractors they have. NTPA has the Diesel Supers and PPL has the Alky Supers. They both have something the other doesn't, what's wrong with that? Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
If your right,alkyd should have always been allowed in ps and sf,running ih ng heads up..remember esdon tried to run heads up in lss,yes he won a couple,but he gave up,simply cause it wasnt competitive |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Patches, that's rather flawed logic. He won a few times but then he gave up. To carry your reasoning out farther then it would stand to reason then most of the other pullers in the LSS class should give up. In fact 90 % of all pullers should just give up. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Data point that supports combining DSS and U/SS
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
He got second in year-end points and just barely missed winning a LSS GN title... that's pretty competitive in my eyes. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Asumptions
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Registered: 03/05/2009 Posts: 11 |
I'm sorry but you can't make a comparison like that based on those two events. While both events had great tracks you still don't have enough information make the assumption your making. First at Rockwell we had new parts in and unfortunately they didn't like each other causing the wrist pins to weld themselves to the bushings. If you had seen a video you would notice it start pulling down at about 275 feet and it lost power based on what I just stated. Not a fair comparison. Second, at Farley we lost over 150lbs of front end weight and I didn't compensate enough when I lowered the drawbar. Again had you seen a video you would have seen that our front end was up and down hard 3 times causing probably 20-30 feet lost distance which would have put us in the pull off with them. Just like at Rockwell had it not welded itself together it would have made the other 18 feet and made the pull off as well. Point is your making assumptions with out knowing the facts. Remember what the word assume means.
Now with that all being said for all of you that want a combination class again there already is one. It's called the unlimited super stock class. Don't be upset when the diesels don't want to pull in it. We have a class called diesel super stock. Now I personally don't mind hooking in the united supers once in awhile because myself and my family like to pull and it gives us a chance to see our friends in a different class or association. But to put the classes back together on a regular basis at this point, well I don't don't see it. Your comparing two completely different animals. A spark power plant versus a compression power plant. There is a reason we are hard on parts. It is a compression power plant. We have to compress everything to make is fire. Not a spark. Not the same thing. Bring the alkies back to 540 and no over head cam then let's see where things would stack up. I personally don't see them coming back to that. I wouldn't if all my research and years of work was to the 640cid. There are other factors that would weigh into this as well but this is a good place to start. Will Ross's continue to pull against the alkies, probably. Will they do good, probably. Their program is at a completely different level. It's fun to watch them run but I love horsepower no matter the color or class. Will we hook the unlimited class in the future, yes we will. Especially on a year like this where there isn't the hooks out there to attend. My opinion and my opinion only. Jeff SHD pulling team |
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Re: Asumptions
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
Was good to see you pull at all 3 places SHD! Appreciate all your time and effort. Good talking to you in Farley as well. Keep up the good fight. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2020 11:00AM by racehorses. |
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Re: Asumptions
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Jeff, thanks for the response. I have huge respect for your pulling team. Yours is one of my favorite DSS tractors. Regarding assumptions, earlier in this thread another poster mentioned Silver Bullet at Rockwell, and I assumed he got it confused with another tractor as Lustik’s class didn’t hook at Rockwell… then found out he did an exhibition pass. Lesson learned. I wasn’t pointing out the 50-60 foot margins between SHD and the farthest tractors to denigrate your tractor, it was to illustrate a broader point (see below). I’m aware that with a clean pass, SHD can run with any other diesel or alcohol SS in the country. At Rockwell, SHD had mechanical issues, otherwise it would have gone farther. At Farley, SHD missed weight, otherwise it would have gone farther. In other words, if SHD had gone 20-30 feet further at Rockwell without mechanical issues, and SHD had gone 20-30 feet further at Farley with better weight distribution, in both cases the margin between SHD and the Burge/Blackbourn would have still been proportionate, just 20-30’ closer in each case. . I do have a question for you, Mr. Demers: Would you personally have any issue if a promoter booked both the NTPA DSS and Open SS classes, run together at same time, draw, and sled setting, but for separate points and purse? That would be a good test, would not penalize one fuel type over the other… and a guaranteed sell-out for the promoter. Controversial thought, but maybe some truth: (Not directed at Jeff, but just a general thought…) Is it possible given 2020 performance levels that a 540 ci Grand National-caliber Diesel Super Stock is actually at an equivalent performance level with a 650 ci GN/CT Unlimited/Open Alcohol super stock with OHC? Is it possible that a 2020 540 ci GN Diesel Super Stock would actually have the same type of performance advantage over a 540ci non-OHC Alcohol SS that the 1990s-era alkys of Conner, Blackbourn, Doug Roberts, Kwiatkowski, etc. had over the Diesel SS tractors of that era? Have the diesels done their homework and not only caught up, but with identical cubic inches, even surpassed the alcohol tractors, thus when a top 540ci diesel runs against a 650 ci OHC alcohol tractor (assuming neither diesel or alcohol has breakage/missed weight), the result on the track is close? Not getting into the 903 issue. That’s a separate topic). Final thought: In NHRA, the Top Alcohol Dragsters successfully allow smaller ci A-fuel nitro engines to run against larger blown alcohol engines heads up, and in Pro Modified, mountain motor nitrous engines, smaller blown engines, and turbocharged engines all co-exist and race heads up. In pulling, Full Pull Productions has a good thing going with their Run What You Brung truck class that combines various classes of diesel trucks, Super Modified FWD, n/a alcohol FWD, a Pro Charge truck, a nitrous truck, and TWD trucks into an entertaining package. As CPR said in another thread, this is something other organizations could offer. Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2020 01:43PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Asumptions
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Registered: 03/05/2009 Posts: 11 |
Actually I would have a problem with the classes running at the same time even though purse and points would be seperate. Pretty simple answer as well, track conditions. If I show up at a pull like Farley and there is 20 tractors in the class there is 20 tractors. Now let's go to sandwich Ill last hook of the year, your leading points. There are 10 diesels and 10 alcohols. Now let's say that I draw first hook then as fate would have it the alkies have hooks 2 thru 11 then the rest of the diesels hook. The road gets made and the tractor that hooked last was able to best you. Loose the 10 hooks out of the middle of the class and the road isn't made. Then the tractor that hooks last doesn't get as far. Again if there is 20 tractors in the class so be it but to run them together just for something to do, well it can and more than likely will effect the outcome of either the event and or a points race.
My opinion only. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Fan 2
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Was a good show Saturday night! However, for the fans that were unable to come back Saturday night, Friday's show in that class was a joke! There were many sitting around me that werent happy about it. The sled setting was way off!! Then they turn around and load the Unlimiteds down where they can't even put on a good show! |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
Perhaps, but to be fair about that, it was 2 different tracks and the west track was much touchier than the east one on Friday. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Posts: 1,160 |
Friday night the Unlimiteds ran on the other track with the other sled, two completely different variables. Also, they didn't load them down, the tractors overpowered the track and they weren't able to get the power to the ground. I talked with a couple pullers in that class and they said the track was good, but they needed to draw back the power. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Fan 2
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Check the winning distances and tell me they didnt load them down!! If they're going to have a 350' track, use it. Sled setting has a lot to do with a particular track being overpowered. The pullers can't put on a good show when they can't get it moving. When half the class has the same problem the sled is too heavy for that track. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Posts: 1,160 |
They had no issues getting the sled moving, but started one wheeling at about 100 feet and it was over from there. And are you trying to tell me that the pullers who told me they over powered the track are wrong and some random person on the internet knows more than those who hooked to the sled? Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Fan 2
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So you are the only one that talked to any of the pullers? I spoke to most of them myself! Also was sitting in front of a former Unlimited Grand National Champion that expressed the same opinion as the class was unfolding!" He said the sled was too heavy for the Unlimiteds to put on a good show.
I find it a bit amusing that Lock and Load went 400' and shut it off ( could have gone another 25 feet if he wanted), winning distance in Unlimited is 318 with half the class one wheeling and you're going to say the sled settings were good. The shortest winning distance in the other classes was 345'. It's not the first pull I've been too where the sled setting ruined the Unlimited show, not too speak of the equipment that's been tore up because of it! |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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sometimes
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Sometimes drivers miss their setups and and that includes the sled operators. I'm sure they would have reset if they'd been told to so maybe any angst should be directed at the official who was in charge for not making them do that. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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The Lock and Load hook was one hell of a run. I can say that some classes can build a track and some can use up what's there, it depends on who you are running after.
Heavy powerful tractors don't do a good job of "Plowing The Road". And packers can only get so much done in a couple passes. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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IH-SSD
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The two classes being combined as one is a pipe dream. It could happen if everyone ran the same cubic inch rule, prime example and data the some can chew on. Take Light Supes say Outlaws and Illinois and several other state groups running 504 cube limits on both fuels. So you want to run 650 A against 540 Diesel's? yes they can set them on kill and maybe get close but they will be a one and done run. So by combining oss and dss it will kill that class also. The only way is if Alky's step back to 540 Push Rod motors like Dss is or will be limited to. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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destructing
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Considering how many SSD there were for the first 25 years of NTPA existence, the DSS class has done a really good job of self destructing during the past 25 years. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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JM
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The SSD class started dying when they kept allowing every new class that got developed to be a “National” class. LLPS and SF are starter classes, never should have been given a seat at the GN table. Too late now though, there are at least 5 different single turbo classes that compete at the National level. The home offices love those membership and entry fees. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Team one
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Same can be said for the SSO, a whopping 2 events were scheduled for this year, I’d be surprised if they are on there at all next year . |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
The Open Super Class in PPL is healthier than the Diesel Super class in NTPA. I think it's great that both organizations have something different to offer but the DSS in NTPA is not very healthy.
Much like Reese's Peanut butter cups, I think they're better together. Some people don't like chocolate in their peanut butter and some don't like peanut butter in their chocolate, some like them together. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Roclwell DSS question
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Registered: 10/01/2017 Posts: 34 |
Don’t you all get tired of beating a dead horse????? Good lord, move on. |
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