10:10:39am, Thursday, April 18, 2024
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13mm vs 14mm pump.
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So if a person was to swap from a 13mm pump to a 14mm pump with no other changes. Should timing stay the same or be added or retarded. We swapped pumps 2 years ago and I've not been happy since. Same brand pumps. Timing has been checked several times. Egts went way up 300+*
Nothing we have done will bring them down. Added water and took fuel out really doesn't matter, added fuel also. Really my question is should timing be left alone it added or retarded or why. I have my ideas about it. But most people say stay the same. If timing is left alone what's the point of swapping to faster/bigger plunger pump. beside the fact of just more fuel. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Timma t
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Make it like your president |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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So here's the deal. I already ran it almost a year lower. 33ish It was actually worse. Extremely high egts. Now I'm at the same as I was with the 13mm 36* Planning on going up to 38-40 ish. So I'm assuming your saying retard and you mean to lower it. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Help
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I assume this is limited rpm?
Is it making more power with the 14? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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No it's not limited rpm, I don't think it's making more yet. I'm almost to the point of putting the 13 back on because I really feel it ran better with it. But haven't been on Dyno with the 14. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Help
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36 is plenty low for open rpm unless you have a little turbo. Do you have 5x22 or larger dual or triple feed injectors? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Larger dual. 36 is where it made peak power on Dyno with the 13mm with the same pistons and Injectors currently running. It most definitely didn't like lower timing. Egts were really bad. We had never had any issues with egts before. And it wasn't a lean condition. Was still plenty of smoke. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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JSRP
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How old are the pumps? I hope your not comparing a newish 13mm vs and older 14mm...
In "theory" the bigger plunger *should* deliver fuel faster at the same timing. From what I understand if the pumps are the same age and in good working condition the 14 mm should be superior hands down. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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13 is probably 6-7 years old now. 14 is about 8 passes from being new..both from same builder. To be honest with you I'm ready to put the 13 back on. I'm really not impressed especially for 8k+
Same everything on long block. Motor has not been touched |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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It’s Possible
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Just throwing this out there as a possibility, but that 14 may not have been calibrated properly on the flow bench OR it’s a pile of crap and you got taken. Just because you bought a 14mm doesn’t mean it’s got the best cam or other components in it to make it work the way it should. If it was me, I would take that pump off and have the calibration checked on it and make sure it’s what it’s suppose to be and I’m
Not just talking about fuel delivery either, have the internal pump timing checked along with the rate of injection of that cam it has in it too. Any more with the price of pumps, injectors and turbos you almost need to dyno the damn thing to make sure it’s worth the money your about to spend. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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I'm not saying your not right, but both pumps bought new both from same very reputable shop. But I know bad things can happen anywhere. I still wished somebody could explain what we are exactly changing swapping between the 2 pumps. Say we know 100% both pumps are good. When I take the 13 off with it set at 800cc and 36* should the 14 be installed the same? The new 14 should have faster injection event all around, so why would it want more timing to make same Power? Seems the right thing would be to it needed less timing to make same Power. But maybe more timing means more power. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Registered: 11/11/2017 Posts: 150 |
The accuracy of the timing pointer could be a question. Use of a diesel timing light would confirm you're timing it the same from one pump to the other. Sometimes the pointer on the pump hub is off a little bit. Timing light aimed at your dampener will tell the tale here. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Help
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Superfarm?
You say same pistons and injectors, same cam and cam timing also? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Registered: 01/03/2019 Posts: 280 |
Was the pump set at the same fuel cc as before? When we would dyno back to back with a 16mm sigma and a 17mm sigma set at the same fuel we made ~50hp more with the 17mm but egts...etc stayed about the same we went up in timing all the way to 60* and then we started loosing power and finally back it back down to about 58*. Egts were fine and made peak power.
I personally think you need to increase timing because my guess is you added more fuel with the bigger pump but do not know for sure. |
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more timing
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Registered: 01/10/2016 Posts: 183 |
more timing |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Different
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So.
The mysterious thing is that you went from a 13mm with .105 lines and went to a 14mm with .120 lines Obviously your 14mm plunger barrel s are bigger and should flow more fuel to the injectors . Even with the bigger lines it should handle it no problem. I can say that when you advance timing you get a hotter charge in the cylinder ..36-40 When you retard the timing to 30-32 It will raise your egt. ..as the charge fires Closer to top dead center and gets out the exhaust valve quicker ...with more heat . Im assuming you have 5x25 dual feeds. If it was me..and I had a 14mm with 5x25 stock injc. Tip length with .120 lines Id be at 38, no more than 40.dbtdc. I believe your injection rate is slower Due to the .120 lines. Just remember. The more advance your timing the hotter the charge in the cylinder ...cooler exhaust to a point. You can melt stuff internally. Also, watch out for some of the fuel you buy. It can change your egt drastically ..as in hp diesel fuel . |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Registered: 03/31/2009 Posts: 309 |
What's high egt? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Maybe
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I’m no wizard and this is kind of a shot in the dark but there was a post on here a couple weeks back about the preset timing in a 4640 Deere pump. Comment made back was 15* so 30* on the engine. Is it possible the so called preset timing on your 2 pumps are different? Someone please explain/elaborate on this I am curious to know more if I’m not understanding. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Your Answer
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On the injection pump they are referring to (4640 Deere) the timing mark is stamped on the drive hub at 15 degrees AFTER port closure of number one plunger. The injection pump turns half crankshaft speed so it would be 30 degrees at the crankshaft. On MOST pulling pumps the timing mark on the drive hub is set at “port closure or beginning of injection” on number 1 plunger. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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confused
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This has me confused. So are you saying the 4640 is firing at 30 degrees factory? I was thinking that pump had 15 degrees built in and when timed at TDC the engine was actually at 15 degrees. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Registered: 11/11/2017 Posts: 150 |
15 pump degrees, equals 30 crankshaft degrees. Too many people confuse all these timing positions, like deere and cummins b/c engines time at tdc, and have the pump marked for so many degrees after port closure(start of pumping) to simplify installation on the engine. I also thinnk this had some to do with emmissions, removing the timing marks from the crank pulley, making it difficult to advance the timing a few degrees for snappy response. ANY Performance engine needs a marked front pulley, and the pump marks set at port closing, so the degrees of advance can be read directly on the pulley. Want it at 30, put it at 30, done! This is applicable to inline pumps. Roosa pumps are totally different animal. |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Different
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I have seen this before .
Did you change your injector lines . If you went to a bigger injection lines , like .120 and you had .93 or .105 ..it will slow your injection rate To the injectors. If you have bigger dual feed as you've said and you opened the lines up your injectors might be lazy . Sometimes restricting the volume up the injectors will help .just something I've done . I can see your 14 getting lazy |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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sfer
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so how can you fix this? i went from .105 to .120 and it got lazy.. whats my fix? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Help
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Put the 105’s back on |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Registered: 01/07/2019 Posts: 33 |
What's your fuel pressure feeding the injection pump? |
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Re: 13mm vs 14mm pump.
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Different 2
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So.
The mysterious thing is that you went from a 13mm with .105 lines and went to a 14mm with .120 lines Obviously your 14mm plunger barrel s are bigger and should flow more fuel to the injectors . Even with the bigger lines it should handle it no problem. I can say that when you advance timing you get a hotter charge in the cylinder ..36-40 When you retard the timing to 30-32 It will raise your egt. ..as the charge fires Closer to top dead center and gets out the exhaust valve quicker ...with more heat . Im assuming you have 5x25 dual feeds. If it was me..and I had a 14mm with 5x25 stock injc. Tip length with .120 lines Id be at 38, no more than 40.dbtdc. I believe your injection rate is slower Due to the .120 lines. Just remember. The more advance your timing the hotter the charge in the cylinder ...cooler exhaust to a point. You can melt stuff internally. Also, watch out for some of the fuel you buy. It can change your egt drastically ..as in hp diesel fuel |
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