03:46:59pm, Wednesday, April 24, 2024
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2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
NTPA rule proposals
Link above. Pasted below. A couple SS proposals. Based on NFMS and Triple Bypass success, there does seem to be movement towards bringing the SS class back together. Two Light Unlimited proposals that would take the class in opposite directions. There are other rule proposals for specific classes, and general competition rules (one person proposes changing the FP distance back to 320' from 350'). As it relates to the Super Stock and Modified Divisions, which proposals do you agree with? Which should be defeated? Super Stock Open (Divisional committee member) I would like to propose combining the heavy Diesel and Alcohol classes for trial run at select Super National events. This combined class at the nation’s premiere events would make for an amazing show. I would propose running them together for entire season but understand steps have to be taken. I feel these events as well as Rockwell Iowa would pay the two combined purses to ensure no diesel or alcohol competitor is short changed. 1st place money for a diesel and 1st place money for an alcohol etc... There is plenty of evidence this class works: example NFMS, numerous events in 2020 and the success of the diesel tractor pulling with the Pro Pulling league. I would be more than happy to sit down and discuss with anyone who would have questions. The writing is on the wall that each class could benefit from each other. LSS/SUPER STOCK OPEN 1.) EFI – Allow electronic fuel injection and ignition in Super Stock Open & Light Super Stock classes. Better tune efficiency for smoother boost/RPM transition and increased durability Longer oil life due to cleaner idle Adds more options for parts suppliers (not only MSD & Enderle) After using the FuelTech system for a few months earlier this summer, we have learned much about how these types of systems will benefit pulling. At the end of the day, horsepower is not necessarily gained. If you run 100psi boost with either system, the same amount of fuel is required to make the same amount of power. What is gained is the ability to “clean up” the idle and transition points in the fuel curve to allow the tractor to light more smoothly. Also, we have the ability to build some safety into the map for temperature control. We as an industry have a pretty serious problem with parts supply at the moment. Many of the older style fuel system parts manufacturers are not moving forward with updated products and cannot supply some of the components we need to keep these older systems going (mostly due to the companies being purchased by private equity). Also, the knowledge needed to configure these systems is limited to the brains of just a few. On the ignition side, MSD has been the most widely used manufacturer of components for many years but the quality and durability has gone down tremendously. We should not be limited to one supplier due to rule constrictions. FuelTech for example, is a young and vibrant company with extremely great technical support. That being said, they (as well as other manufacturers) are willing to work with the sanctioning bodies to provide whatever testing assistance needed to meet the rules (ie... traction control limitations). I know most pullers are worried about the idea of traction control when they hear about engine management systems. Yes, there are ways to attempt to manage traction with the new systems. However, the vast amount of variables in truck & tractor pulling make this extremely difficult to ever have really consistent results. Again, FuelTech for one is willing to produce a test system or kit that will allow us to check for these items. NHRA has these systems in place and consistently work with the “electronic” companies to solve problems. LT UNL Delete engine restrictions on 6000 lt unlimited. Make class mirror 8000 pound unlimited. “Run what u brung” LT UNL Devise rules for Light Unlimited to have a pair of 14-71 supercharged engines as the limit. Include other engine/motor combinations. Unfortunately three blown engines and screw blowers have stunted the participation growth in this class. These limits will also positively impact the RN Mods class as well. There are currently enough vehicles to field a eight to ten class and be competitive. Rename the class to what this would be - Light Modified. Make the weight 6200 lbs. 320 feet maximum pull distance instead of 350 feet. LT UNL Delete engine restrictions on 6000 lt unlimited. Make class mirror 8000 pound unlimited. “Run what u brung” LT UNL Devise rules for Light Unlimited to have a pair of 14-71 supercharged engines as the limit. Include other engine/motor combinations. Unfortunately three blown engines and screw blowers have stunted the participation growth in this class. These limits will also positively impact the RN Mods class as well. There are currently enough vehicles to field a eight to ten class and be competitive. Rename the class to what this would be - Light Modified. Make the weight 6200 lbs. REGIONAL NATIONAL MODIFIEDS 1. Change rule E-N01 Page 44, 2020 rule book to read: Three (3) blown wedge automotive engines with 8-71 super chargers at the overdrive limits listed below or single staged turbocharger. No intercooler allowed with port-fuel injection only. 2. Eliminate rule E-N01-C 3. Change rule E-N02 to read: Two (2) blown automotive engines with 14-71 superchargers at 45% maximum overdrive or single staged turbocharger on intercooler allowed with port-fuel injection only. 4. Change rule E-14 to read: One (1) turbine or combination of NTPA recognized turbine engines not to exceed maximum of 5350 total horsepower using the ratings as approved by NTPA listed below. 5. Note - Water and alcohol may be added to turbine tractor with 5050 HP rating NO water and alcohol on engine combination of 5350 HP ratings. General (NTPA Board Member) 1. Allow EFI ignition systems in all classes of competition 2. Outlaw the use of "crank trigger" ignition systems on alcohol fueled engines (motors) 3. Create a class known as Heavy Super Stock and allow both "common" fuels (alcohol and diesel) |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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LSS Fan
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“2. Outlaw the use of "crank trigger" ignition systems on alcohol fueled engines
(motors)” Lol that’s a weird one. Submitted as a joke? |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
Yeah, I don't get that one either. Probably 90% of the MFWD class is using them. So, the few guys in that class on gas get to keep them, but the methanol guys have to take them off?
CP |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Leave the ss alone !.if its combined diesels have showed over the years thier not interested in hooking with alcohol trs.if Ross's diesel is that dominate wouldnt you think chizek and Strickland will be building diesels..lol..allow v8s in lss .. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Mgc
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Yea, leave ss diesel alone, you want to run them together get your own, you can run them everyday. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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AJ
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Combine the diesel and alkys lol but then they each still get their own places and payouts lol .... why bother and why is that drum still being beat it has a a certain pullers name all over it most likely. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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SSO rule fannatic
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Eliminate the SSO class from Grand National NTPA,....they lost and PPL won that war. Move on NTPA...... |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Yikes
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Changing the maximum pull distance is idiotic to say the least. Are we trying to put on an exciting, impressive, attention keeping show, or are we simply trying to stop everyone at 300' pass after pass? I think it's pretty obvious which of the two scenarios I just described is better. What's even more stupid is how the proposed change is just thrown in without any listed pros or cons. That being said, why even suggest it? Sad. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Alkyfan
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Changing from 350 to 320 is an excellent idea
320 and on heat becomes a major issue on engine parts and longevity 300 to 320 sled settings are a great show |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
I have to disagree, almost every pass we make takes 12 to 15 seconds whether we go 300' or 370'. On the long passes we just go faster, the fans seem to like faster. 350' is a much better show than 280' any day and when you set the sled for the best tractors at 300' some of the class is at 270', that is not a good show.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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My Opinion
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I agree 1000% and I was around pulling 50 years ago....Short tracks and pulloffs were fun back then but no more....Some people want to go back 20-30 years and its just not going to happen with todays sleds and tractors.. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 10/02/2018 Posts: 7 |
I have found my self to be in agreement with most of Sno farmers reasons for not having a pull off. Only when fans were well aware of an underlying story line was the pull off exciting.
From a fan perspective when a class has 8 or more vehicles I don't feel a desire to see them a second time. Fans seem to really like to see a tractor do what it wants with the sled, accelerate quickly and have some good ground speed vs seeing a pull off. I really enjoyed watching radical reactor pull at fort recovery this past summer, slow 260' pass. It was awesome to see in person a great pull with the Wright engine. I also will never forget watching Steve Boyd pull at BG first unlimited session in 2019 with 369' pass. It was awesome, had to be the most HP ever put into the ground during a pull. Neither of these recent memories involved a pull off. I do remember watching Ken Veney win the mini class in a pull off at BG in 2017, but was more excited for the fact that he won. As a fan I enjoy getting to see everyone make a great pass and the underdogs making a statement (as competitor too). And like for the pull to have least time between hooks and finish ahead of schedule. Not sure a pull session longer than 3 hours is appealing to majority of fans. In my mind the only reason to have a pull off is if there are less than 8 vehicles in a class. This provides a quality show when there are not enough hooks. And does not make the show unnecessarily long. Galen Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2021 02:41PM by Galen JPT. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
I agree with Alkyfan. Spectators want to see pullers in pulloffs. A lot of tracks are struggling to keep safety in mind with these long pulls. What happens when more tractors or trucks have the chain or hitch break at the end of the pull and run over the laser, announcers at end of track, laser operators, other pullers or worse, spectators!! It is harder on parts and more heat is generated in longer pull distances and times. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Pulloff
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Put your money where your mouth is and come back for a pulloff! If you pull 400 feet, I really don't care if another puller pulls 350 feet when the track is set at 320 feet. Too many pullers have a problem with the fans seeing their vehicle pull 2 times for the same amount of money to win 1st place. This problem started a long time ago and it's another reason why pulling has too many classes! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Pulloff
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Grow some nuts pussies
[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Just Sayin’
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I’m here to say no to 300’. That ship sailed long ago. Everyone has their opinion and I can say if you’re a fan of 300’ FP distances, find a pull or circuit that has those rules. If you like the 320-330-340…. then do the same with those events. I think back to some of the indoor pulls in the 80s & 90s when you sometimes had 220 to 250’ tracks - and they’d have pull offs too. Then….it was ok…now? Lol, no. Pulling has evolved and it should continue to. Does that mean at some point it’ll be 1/4 mile strip like NHRA, I hope not. But, pullers are already a dying breed and if you continue to drive up the cost by potential breakage in pulloffs, if anything, it’s another pass on the engine components, ….. no. The cost can’t be justified. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Old news
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Is 5 tractors really a national class? |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Bubba Gump
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Old School Racing was way better back then ( loved the way Earnhardt passed in the grass an the way he raced, Richard Petty was another one ) Racing back then was way more exciting than it is now -- JUST LIKE PULLER USED TO BE--- JUS SAYN !!!!! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Well Mr Gump when Earnhardt passed in the grass if he destroyed a car he didn't have to pay for it his sponsors did...he didn't have to fix it his crew did. Back in the grand old days of pulling guys were running basically stock Chevy's with blowers on top making 1000 to 1200 HP. Now we run the same engines you see in NHRA cars and we not only don't have sponsors we get very little in the way of purse. We break them we fix them and we pay for it out of our own pockets. Come join us for a few laps down the track with an extremely expensive tractor running for $850 to win, we'll see how long you and your pocketbook last. I've broken the driveline in my tractor 3 times this year not once was I past 200', I've also gone well past 350' many times and didn't break once because of it!
So fix up a nice batch of shrimp and come on over and help me fix my tractor that broke last night...I like shrimp any number of ways that Bubba fixes them! S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Todd, the fault off the expense and running equipment so hard is not that of the fans, promoters nor the sponsors. The fault rest solely on you and the competitors! Its nobody's fault but your own that you choose to pull for the same purse that you did 30 years ago while your expenses have been driving up astronomically by the search for more power by you the competitor!!! Fans, promoters and sponsors want a show and never ever in 40+ years I've followed this sport have I ever heard a fan ask for more performance out of any competitor. NOT EVER!! Dont cry when about expenses, breakage and maintenance when it was your choice to keep chasing performance and spending money!! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Pulloff
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Andy, I knew how my post would go over(lead ballon) but YOU said it RIGHT! Thank YOU!!!! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Andy, I've said many times that pullers are their own worst enemy me included but that doesn't change the fact that the sport in general has evolved to a one and done format. I think the majority of pullers prefer it that way, not all but most. One of the most enduring pullers in the mod class is Ken Miller, he has refused to pulloff for as long as I can remember. His thoughts are if you want me to run twice pay me for doing it. As far as the fans are concerned from the responses I see they like long fast hooks. In Zanesville a few weeks ago I was test hook and went almost 370', the fans loved it. After a reset I came back last and won at 312', the fans didn't seem nearly as excited about 312' and a win as they did about the 370' run.
If we all had the attitude that the status quo was good enough pulling would be a stone boat with stock tractors...fun for the guy doing it but boring for most. S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Technology and horsepower has evolved but sponsors money, purses and crowd sizes have not evolved! Fans ( majority) still love pulloffs!! Pulloffs build excitement and enthusiasm and creates the WOW factor. Do you forget how the crowd reacted when Ken veney won in a pulloff at BG a couple years ago??? The place went wild!!! A TRACK IS 300'FT AND NOBODY WILL EVER CONVINCE ME THIS 320-350' IS A BETTER SHOW!! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Andy, Sponsorship and fans for ALL motorsports are down not just pulling. Dayton sold a bunch of their bleacher just so the place doesn't look so empty. I suppose that goes back to what Bubba was saying, I don't know because I didn't watch them then or now.
Back in 70s and 80s you could not find a bigger NTPA fan than me but I have to say that when I watch a video from those days they are slow and boring compared to today's top classes. But that's just me and I might be the only one that feels this way. S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Fan 2
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So what is the difference Todd in 2 runs on a sled reset or a pulloff? It seems like a full pull mark at 320' and pulling off would be easier on the equipment than spinning out at 370' and 312'.
I have also sat in the stands and heard pullers and pullers wives say the "show" needed a pulloff on certain nights. As for the Chevy argument back in the day, ask Tim Engler what some of his repair bills were from week to week! I asked him more than once with the 5 motor Mission Impossible. $46,000 was the biggest he told me about from Ohio State Fair to Fort Recovery. And when he hooked to the sled you knew you were about to get a show! I've never heard ANYONE say "I can't wait to see Jim Miller run"! He's the reason they backed you, Veney, and a few others down on the state and regional level. And that is the reason I have not and will not attend a state or regional event in Ohio. Thankfully we have a lot if GN events here. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 7 |
I’m not 100% sure, but I believe a sled reset means the puller that hooked does not have a measurable distance therefore hasn’t officially made a pull. That puller has to rehook or doesn’t get money or points.
With a pulloff, obviously the pullers have official hooks and will get money and points, even if they “broke” after their pull. Interesting, I believe PPL rules state that there aren’t any splits from pulloffs. Someone has to make a measurable distance in a pulloff. I wonder how they can police the “broke” reason for not participating in a pulloff? |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Fan2, Just saw your post. If you haven't gone to any RN mod hooks this year you missed some good pulling regardless of pulloffs. How many pulloffs have you witnessed at GN events recently? As I've stated many times I will pulloff 95% of the time I just prefer not to.
Tim's goal was to win the points in all of the weight brackets, that took a lot of effort and money. If you notice not many pullers jump classes any more, it's expensive and hard work for little more than the satisfaction of having been able to do it. Not to mention that evidently some FANS don't like the way we do it anymore. Yes we have to please the fans and entertain them but it also needs to be reasonable for us to spend the amounts of money we spend with a lesser chance of hurting parts. As an example we are sometime in the near future going to have to buy two sets of tires and rims in order to keep up with the competition, that's close to $30,000 just to stay even with the other tractors in the class. This BTW renders two very good sets of tires virtually worthless. That's part of the price we have to pay to stay competitive and entertain. S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Bubba Gump
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Todd, Bubba Gump here, just so you know, ive been pulling since 84, ive run every super stock tractor class their is, i currently run light limited super, SO I DO KNOW ABOUT THE COST, i just chose not to keep spending and spending chasing more horsepower and going to a component chassis,You stated yourself that you chose to keep chasing horsepower, i on the other hand chose not to an stayed as close to old school as i could by going to an actual tractor class, to me- "in my opinion only," a component is not an actual tractor nor is the any sheetmetal rule for any engine rule --- SO YES I DO KNOW THE COST, my LLSS to build is in the 80 plus range. And in my opinion -- OLD SCHOOL PULLING AN OLD SCHOOL RACING WERE BETTER !!!! |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Bubba, about that shrimp, I'll be in the shop a few more nights this week working on my junk! Have a great week and good luck with the LLSS I really enjoy that class.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Bubba Gump
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Todd I'll be right there, you like it grilled, battered, fryd, I'll help wherever an with whatever i can..lol |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Is 4 hooks really a national class? |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Old news
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Is 4 in a class really a national class? |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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OG
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I'm in my mid 50's and this is the only class I've really cared about but I think it's ok to declare it dead at the National level. The reasons for it are many and it's silly to argue over the why. It's a shame they couldn't come up with some kind of limited boost pressure 3 turbo class so all the fan favorites could build a tractor that would live and go back to pulling but that ship has sailed, there are too many classes as there is. Anyway, time to pour one out for the DSS class. From the Cajun Queen, to the Rooster, to the Iron Elk, to Red Line Fever, and the Workhorse it was a hell of a run. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Just Sayin’
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I have to say, as they run now, the Region 2 modified class is about as good if a selection or variety of modified tractors out there. Now, getting more than 4-5 to show up at any one event can be a challenge, but Fort Recovery shows what that class or what it “could” be.
Bottom line, it definitely helps when the announcers can differentiate each particular tractor and their preferred set up. To the average Joe or Jane, they would automatically assume that a 3 engine tractor would easily dominate a WWII Allison or whichever. |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Greg k
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Very seldom does R2 mods only have 4 or 5 in the class |
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Re: 2021 NTPA Super Stock and Modified Rule proposals (per NTPA website)
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,145 |
I just had a discussion two weeks ago with a "hot farm" Puller crying, that he just had to put an 8600 14mm P pump on his 1.8 inch turbo inlet limited tractor (which basically makes not even 500 hp) to stay competitive as a 13mm P wouldn't give him enough low-end toque to go the last 5 ft.
He now has a tractor with a tiny turbo, a killer fuel pump, ground cam, intercooler, etc, that, if he would put a bigger turbo on, would make north of 1000 hp, but doesn't have the balls to do that, because he might only become 9th one class up (well - actually my buddy got third that day with a 13mm P in the class above). People spend as much money as they can to win - often on parts that make no sense. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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