06:31:27am, Saturday, April 20, 2024
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The Cardinal Sin
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I know its been asked but I will pose the question. I can not for the life of me figure out why it matters from an outside and or spectator stand point what is under the hood of a national level competition vehicle. Im not talking rules or even safety just from a guy who buys a ticket at the gate, who cares what sheet metal/ engine combo a team chooses. As far as I know ( which isn't very far) NHRA in the pro level stuff is all billet hemi engines, not a single piece will fit on any spectators anything, but the crowd will still get in a fist fight because Jimmy's mustang sticker outran Billy's camaro sticker or what have you? As far as I can tell everyone in NASCAR drives the exact same car, but that one has my favorite corporate insignia on the front. Even closer to home, I have never heard anyone complain because a TWD truck doesnt have automotive parts on it. BUT heaven forbid you dont use the correct a factory deere clutch pedal on a super stock because "THAT IS NOT A REAL TRACTOR!!!!!" Why do we as a whole, or at least part of a whole care? Why is it ok to have tires that have never seen a field and a mortgage on a turbo, but we draw the line when someone wants to use a red radiator cap on a blue tractor or even worse.... make their own cost effective radiator cap? Why, Why as a sport do we eat ourselves alive over trivial BS, and watch as the rest of the motorsports world passes by. Again im not talking rules, im not talking safety, just as a group why will some lay awake at night because the guy that won's carpet didnt match the drapes? Did he, or she not do what they could or needed to do to best the rest of the field? Or at the very least have a lucky night? I'm not even talking about the whole engine swap deal, why are we still pounding our heads against mechanical injection pumps, why are you not allowed to run multiple valves per cylinder, or any other improvement made since the electric can opener? Nobody is getting into the sport, nobody is coming to watch, yeah because nobody has falling out of the sky money to dump down a dead end rabbit hole, to either blow it into a million pieces, or be ridiculed because they tried to make an informed decision over sticking with their buddies tattoo. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Georgee
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Most likely why for the same reasons the NFO never gained popularity. To start, pullers were mostly Farm family based I would think. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
False advertisement Theft by deception and what Georgee said |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
I believe that national pulling killed the one thing that made hooded tractors exciting was the rule of any sheet metal any engine decision. Brand loyalty plays a huge part in the sport. Any one that that doesn't believe that Carlton Cope's Massey doesn't generate more interest than a green hood and a red motor or vise versa doesn't follow the sport. The rule I guess was to generate more excitement and the reverse happened.
Just another bad rule that was not well thought out. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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I completely get the brand loyalty deal, but my question is are NHRA fans not brand loyal to the sticker on the grill when again as far as I know everyone is running essentially the exact same block? Again I'm not that familiar. Or NASCAR, it doesn't take any kind of genius to see they are all the same car. Setting aside the fact that the teams that win have a better set up or driver crew chief whatever, do they not all have the same parts on the track? Absolutely warpath draws a bigger crowd than anyone else, but the thing runs, if he never won anything nobody would care. And the sponsor thing goes both ways, if "new" parts were allowed those manufactures could possibly be involved. I realize I am painting with a broad brush, but as a fan further removed than I want to be why is it worth spitting and screaming in the pits when the show goes on anyhow. I guess my point is if you went all billet hood emblems, soup to nuts I don't think the spectators would really know the difference. The "we are all farmers" argument is a line of crap as well. Because most of the pulls I have been around, conservatively 80% of the fans probably believe corn grows in the supermarket. |
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About the NHRA analogy
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Like pulling, NHRA has lots of classes. 17 different classes of cars were at NHRA National events this year, not counting Pro Stock Snowmobiles which race as sportsmen in a few northern Divisions and sometimes do exhibitions at northern national events like Brainerd, MN. If you're talking about Funny Car (nitro or top alcohol), they're all hemis and it doesn't matter what sticker is on the body. I think this may be what you're talking about regarding engine not matching sheet metal in pulling. I've never heard anyone that really cares whether it's Chevy, Toyota,Dodge, or Ford on a Funny Car body, though some Ford fans are partial to Bob Tasca since he's the only one that currently runs a Ford body (I think). The Tasca family also has a Ford dealership so that probably helps. However, this is not the case in some of the sportsmen categories, as I understand the rules. The stock and super stock as I understand the rules run blocks that match the maker, though Super Stock may have a few newer exotic classes that allow variation... not sure about that. In these classes, it matters very much if a GM body runs a GM engine, same with Ford and Mopar. I do wish NTPA, PPL, and Outlaws would come up with identical rules (looking at Outlaws), and maybe for 2023 decrease the max from 680 to something smaller. Smaller motor, change the rules back to the carpet matches the drapes, perhaps allow EFI. In other words, make logical rules that utilize current technology. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2021 02:42AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: About the NHRA analogy
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Yes I was referring to funny cars or top fuel, what I would consider the top class, as an equivalent to the pro/ super component chassis tractors, again I would consider those the top classes for tractors. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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EFV
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Emotion plays a much larger part in decision making the most people will admit/know. Because
consumers often base their beliefs about quality on their emotional connection with a brand, regardless of actual quality, they care about "correct" parts being used. "Cross dressing" is a direct challenge to the fan's perception of quality and by extension the fan themselves. That's a perfect recipe for a fight. The illegality of OEM technology is likely due to " outdated" equipment manufacturer's support of the sport. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
As far as I'm concerned the any motor /sheetmetal rule was to allow,all colors to use the band at 680 cubes.and it's still a red and green show,a major flop..I know I'm in the minority but I believe the cube limit should have been lowered in all the hooded tractor classes to a number that all the brands could be competitive. The entries would have grown substantially in that case.brand loyalty still plays a part,a huge part. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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mgc
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wasnt it also because hyper made a stronger block that someone with a 1486 wanted to use cuz the factory blocks couldn't hold up to advances in technology that made more boost so their out was the any sheet metal route to bring back tractors and make pulling safer without restricting the power. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
No.
Pro Stock had been set at 680ci for at least 18 years before the Hyper block was offered for sale. Or did you mean the any color thing? Because that was asked for so guys could use the BBJD in PS. Again, nothing to do with Hyper and long since the Hyper block there have been alternatives for IH and JD recast from D&R, VGM, and now Chaos. CP Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2021 05:22AM by cpr. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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mgc
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thank you for the clarification, and yes the any colour thing |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Georgee
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to "WHY" Back in the day,- two farmers bragged about how powerful their tractors were and hence the first pulling event happened, - then people like you came to watch, not the other way around, LOL. My original post says nothing about fans,(all of us), being farmers,so the crap is on you, being articulate does not make you perceptive. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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George, how did auto racing start, two guys had cars and raced them, did everyone who came to watch have one? What about horse racing? How bout stamp collecting? All I'm saying is the guys running top fuel are having fun, the crowd is having fun watching them and arguing about which sticker goes faster. As far as I'm concerned put big tires on it, choose a color and run it the crowd will still argue with each other about what brand will win cuz grand pappy had one of those and he out plowed the neighbors and had a six inch cherry glowing out the stack still had the crosshatch in the block when they got bored and tore it down after that one winter with a gojillion hours on it, didn't even need rebuilt but they did it anyway. Same as pappy worked for Ford so the oval is faster. How many model A's are out there " built ford tough with Chevy stuff" cruising the streets? I farmed I know what it is, but I'm not talking about farming I'm talking about pulling. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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In comparison to NHRA, I'd say the top fuel are like the modified/unlimited class. Funny cars would be similar to the super stock tractor classes and pro stocks would compare from each series. And the pro stocks in NHRA are brand specific when it comes to the powerplant. As just a fan I would prefer that the carpet matched the curtains. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Leon
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Pro stock in nhra has allowed any engine in any body for a few years now. All of the fords have a GM DRCE engine, and the only dodge that is actually a “hemi” is Allen prusinski. Since they moved to efi and 10,500 rpms the hemi style engines just don’t have the steam. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Grubby, I would agree my comparison was off a bit but I stand behind my premise. As far as what I would like to see yes would be nice if they were all "correct" but where is that line? There isn't a tractor pulling on this planet past a true farm stock that doesn't have an upgraded part that isn't true to the brand. Does the model number have to match the engine because agco stopped using 3208 before the 6000 series as far as I know, never seen a massy with a v-8 that wasn't shaped like a cinder block. Does the carpet have to completely match the drapes or is she allowed to dye the grey? Either way that strays from my original question: Why do we care? I would absolutely still watch if they were all billet 7 cylinder isusu abortions and you called them fergeson t20's if they blew smoke and put dirt on the moon. I would like to think I understand a lot about mechanical contrivances, not saying expert or even claiming to be smarter than my cat, just saying a pile of stomach ulcers could be avoided if you let er eat watch the show and root for the sticker. Conversely, even a spectator shouldn't be entirely ignorant to what is going on under the hood. I'm not saying the competitors don't have a bone to pick either, but for a guy that does not, has not, and will not ever have a tractor in the class whats the big deal? Lastly Leon is the EFI and 10500 across the board in nhra or were you just referring to the prostocks, as I said not all that familiar. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Leon
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The efi is pro stock only. They mandated a 10,500 limit and the Holley Ecu and forward facing throttle body. After a year or two it was all GM and in an effort to get other brands they allowed any engine in any body. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Why,
I must say I have enjoyed your commentary in this thread, not that I agree or disagree just some interesting writing. I wish I could express my thoughts that well. S'no Farmer |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Patches, thank you! |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
I agree w/ Patches also Not to derail this discussion, but since not all manufacturers tractors were crated equal, (maybe I shouldn't have said that on here.....lol), just what cube limit should that have been ??? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2021 02:23AM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I agree w/ Patches also Not to derail this discussion, but since not all manufacturers tractors were crated equal, (maybe I shouldn't have said that on here.....lol), just what cube limit should that have been ???[/quote] 360, for ltss, 504 for heavy superstock and 540 for prostock and I know/knew 40 years ago how well that idea will go over! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2021 02:23AM by Jake Morgan. |
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Supertiquer
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
Woulda worked in the end,every brand has multiple models that meet those numbers,variety would be plenty.no need for components or any motor any hood.more customers for vendors too,the sport would have double the entries in the hooded classes,and no need for the other classes that have transpired since peostock was created |
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Re: Supertiquer
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Again thank you Patches and who ever gave you a thumbs down on your post must be an idiot sorry to say. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 02/25/2014 Posts: 112 |
As what most would consider a young man in our sport. I’m going to agree with that less and less fans in the stands care about power plant and sheet metal matching. We are facing two issues with the sport. One is cost, there are 10,000 different opinions on how to keep it down. None of them work. But to me, the most important issue is fans being able to associate what we are doing to their life experiences. Yes, a guy in his late 40s or early 50s had a pappy farming with a 1066 and he tells all those stories. Stop the next 7 year old farm kid you see and show him a picture of your pulling tractor. Chances are you’ll get the same response I have. “That’s not a tractor” it doesn’t have a cab, buddy seat, and auto steer. His pappy is farming with a 8360R with fruit snacks and juice boxes in the cooler under the seat. My point is, we need to do whatever we have to do to capture the next generation of fans before we are all out of a job. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Just Sayin’
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Let me throw another wrench into the machine. Comparing to NASCAR and NHRA, what about Monster Jam? Here’s my point. They’re all extremely similar to each other without the fiberglass shell. In order to create better or higher interest, the owners have created different styles to distinguish themselves - otherwise it would be a truck versus a truck routinely. Now, yes this is maybe a little further reaching but the idea is the same. The fan perspective, generally, is the coolest, best looking, and winning vehicle gets the attention. There absolutely the purests out in the crowd but they are outnumbered many times 7/8 to 1 at most events. No fans / no pull. Why do you think some of the more popular classes are the diesel truck classes - because people can relate, and aren’t 99% running a Cummins powerplant regardless of the exterior? Won’t be long, maybe we’ll see a suped up Mahindra on the track, lol. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
I've only been a brush puller since 1976 but I think the bigger problem for fans is the fact we have more classes of tractors than even we can keep track of. If it blows smoke they don't care if it's a $500,000 tractor or a $50,000 one if the sled is set right for each. If you think brands don't matter then don't go in the pits in any of the truck classes or you might come out with a black eye. I'm not a fan of tractor cross dressing but I do understand the theory behind it. You won't ever see me running a Deere with an IH engine for two reasons, well only one, my wife would never write the check out to have one. I will however confess to running a red tractor with a red engine a few times. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Joey
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We can not make the majority happy much of the time, we as a nation have become complainers, bitchers, whiners and very discontent in all areas of Life, looking to others for gratification never solves the issues. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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S'no Farmer, Thank you. I tend to be a tongue tied bumbling idiot with the spoken work, so I will take the compliment. Oliver12v, we were told to be happy we had a jug of water, and got yelled at for not being quick enough with a hitch pin, so yes different experiences than the current generation. Just sayin, monster jam is a valid comparison and they fill stadiums (allegedly I've never been, but the tv commercials dont show empty seats) maybe we need pyrotechnics? Not saying that tractors should be pulling sporting dog ears flapping in the breeze either. To me the pickup truck classes have taken off with the advancement of the modern common rail diesel. Every joe blows diesel shop with a laptop has one, unless they prefer drag racing, and it is more of a young mans game as far as I can tell. The money changing hands in that sector is mind boggling up until recently. Not only can a spectator relate to the truck, they can also call the number on the side get the parts, the tunes, and the sweet bumper sticker for their very own "off road use only" pickup and be at the next pull ready to pass muster or create a new parts list for the next paycheck. Which is great, people in the sport, money changing hands rinse and repeat. But as was said they will bolt a cummins in anything it will fit in, or cut stuff out of the way until it does. Far as I know nobody really cares, run it. Is that because more people own pickups than own tractors? I would say that is at least part of it. But they are also a completely different breed, in my experience. I personally prefer tractors, and tend to plan meals around pickup classes, but thats me. Either way you cant argue they are bringing people in on both sides of the track so to speak. JD43, and everybody else who has mentioned it, I never said brand didnt matter, my point is who can tell the difference unless you tell them? I know you can hear a bbjd versus anything else idleing up to the starting line but if you dont tell the kid sitting next to you he will still think its a minnie mo, scream his heart out, and tell the guy on the other side how it just spanked that poor deere. I have witnessed first hand grown men arguing about street semis pulling how the pete was gonna woop the binder, when I knew for a fact that they had identical engines trans and rears. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
There is zero comparison between monster trucks and pulling. One is a competition, the other prolongs a show with a half ass race.
Are we to start awarding points for highest wheelstand? Longest? Largest fireball? Best food spread? Interviews that sound like Monday night wrestling? Other subjective BS? CP |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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Just Sayin’
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CPR, you’re taking the entirety of monster trucks as a comparison. I’m only talking the vehicles, how they’re built and designed, which is what “why” was originally posting about. No one, including me, says we should be scoring for longest wheelstand, etc. My point is similar to what “why” is saying, and goes hand in hand with the “NTPA 2020” thread. You can maintain your rules, turn your head, close your ears, just plain put blinders on and pound the table with your fist and say “ we’re not changing for anybody”. I’m for simplifying things for the common (and in larger numbers) fan. Don’t need overhaul changes, you just need to tweak it or put touches on things. There are plenty of places where pulling purists can go and see a 300’ full pull with tractors with carpet that matches the drapes. I’m not here to try and “cancel” that. I’m just here to say if you want to stay a viable Motorsport, you have to grow and occasionally change. |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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?
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For all those that think " change is good " in some ways it is some ways not so much, Sam Walton ( Founder of Wal-Mart ) always said ( change is good ), now is it ? Wal-Mart has put alot of small family owned businesses out of business,So is change good or not ? Some want to change classes that have plenty of participants, but why, if the class is doing great on its own then Leave it Alone, if someone wants more, there are classes for that - Leave whats working Alone !!!!!!!!! |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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To be clear on my question or point, I have no issue with or without any rule or lack there of , mostly because I don't have any skin in the game. I'm not advocating either way, there are enough people out there that can build and tune the mechanical systems, good for them and they put on a good show. Outside looking in I would say that common rail is a possibility, I'd say 6 cp3s and the computer off a space shuttle would work, but I don't know that and don't care either. I guess on a dedicated competition vehicle at that level why does it matter, every other part on the thing has never seen a day in the field, so why does the engine matter? I know, if you keep a " Factory" block they can only be pushed so far before they become confetti, but they do it anyhow. I could probably go round up a dozen guys that I know who could watch you paint a red brick green and yellow then would swear Deere made it and would buy a pallet to build an outhouse. Or insert brand and colors here. Not dogging the green guys. So why does it matter? Again I'm not saying the guys who have them don't have a legitimate tussle, but for me, outside the class looking in I don't see it. Build it tell the kids in the stands and the accountant it's a pure breed and run it. Around here you can't go snipe hunting without stumbling onto a dirt circle, sprint guys allow whatever so long as it's 410ci and they have a good time, I think there major fight is who rectum who at the end of the weekend but whatever. Most of them can't tell you what a crankshaft is but dou you have a moment to talk about spring rate and the all holy shock rebound? I digress, I am not pushing any agenda, and don't care what the rules are I just on a very basic low end don't understand why it's ok to mess around and fix a factory block to make it hang on for a while, but not ok to explore other options in the top level tractor classes? |
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Re: The Cardinal Sin
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ya lost me at post zero......
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What in god's name are we even discussing here? Seems like a bunch of energy wasted on absolutely nothing.
If the original post (post zero) was a gripe about people who are brand conscious vs the any engine/any sheetmetal rule you are wasting your time. It is what it is. Some don't care what it is a long as it runs, and others are offended by what it may or may not be. Life is about choices, get over it. I like tractor classes (ones that at least seem like descendants of their Ag versions), and I don't much care for trucks. I watch both if they are at the same event, but no matter what you do with the trucks it doesn't/won't change the fact I just don't care if I see them pull. So why demand updated equipment or radical visual and mechanical adaptations for a class when it likely won't change anyone's mind? I'm sure there are just as many truck fans who feel the same way about tractors. That's life, and I'm okay with it. Why does it have to become a ridiculous debate? |
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The Cardinal Sin
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Nothing competing in any kind of "high performance" pulling today bares any resemblance to the original, even if the sheet metal does match the powerplant.
Nor does it mean the make that wins, implies that that make or model is a better "farm" tractor. I'm as brand loyal as they come, but in light of what I stated above, to me, it doesn't matter who wins in super stock / pro stock or truck classes either. If I attend a pull, and Carlton Cope is there I'll root for him because his tractor is "different" and "unique" , not because I thing Massy made the better "farm" tractor. My username speaks to my brand loyalty, but I don't see why matching sheet metal to engines or vice versa, really means so much to anyone these days with the direction the sport is taking. |
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