11:54:59am, Thursday, April 25, 2024
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Age class motor combinations
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Please explain to me why a 1066,1256 or 806 ih can have a Detroit 40series Navistar motor but a Case 1070 can't have a IH400 series motor and ih rear end. After all case bought and owned IH. LLSS every tractor is running a 5.9 Cummins motor but cockshuts never had a 5.9 Cummins and ihs had a 360 but not a 5.9 Cummins? I'm just curious how this works. Why doesn't a McCormick have to run what came in it instead of a 466 based ih motor? |
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Re: Ag class motor combinations
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I've lobbied for years that engines should match hoods and I believe that to be true within brands as well. I think this has been a slippery slope and now we've gotten to a point where almost nothing is what it should be. Even in the non-component Ag chassis classes like you mentioned people are pushing the boundaries with some pretty odd combinations that don't seem to make any sense. The 5.9 issue in LLSS has made this look even more ridiculous. I still favor a hood must match the engine rule with a little leeway for OEM crank-swinging substitutions like the DT414 to a DT436 or DT466... or a Ford/NH 410 to a 456 or 474, etc... I know we're too far down that road now in most classes and I don't' think it's been a good thing for the sport. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
This is how we sat down and discussed this as a class. We consider that the LLSS class is a small tractor chassis class first under 410 cubes. Case used a 5.9 Cummins in a 1896 and 2096, so we decided that case tractors could use that motor. So white tractors used a 5.9 in there 100 up to 185 which used a 8.3 , so the 185 was the cut off. With Oliver White and Moline combining together they would use a 5.9. because these were considered replacement motors. As now the discussion is since CNH is combined , some of the small tractors are the same , but one is blue and the other is red. It's kinda of a cluster but to keep numbers you need to really research the tractors history David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686 Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2021 10:08AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 240 |
First off “case” didn’t buy anyone, Tenneco did and second a 40 series Detroit is a rebadged late model 466. Came from the same factory. I agree completely with the same sheet metal/engine manufacturer. I actually think the hoods should match the series of engine but then 60-70% of pulling would be 66/86/3688 series sheet metal tractors so I understand that. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Orphan
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I’m just setting over here wondering what the heck difference it makes what sheet metal is over top of what engine and rear end….. Most brands wouldn’t ever be seen on the track again if engine had to match sheet metal. Personally I think you should be able to adapt any 2wd tractor ag engine to any ag rear end and put any sheet metal on it your heart desires. Everything is fabricated anyway, so tell me why it matters? |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
It matters because many (most) farmers are still brand loyal. I good portion of American's are still brand loyal. Many won't drive a Chevy truck or a Ford truck... many still call a Ram truck a Dodge despite the companies attempt to re-brand them. How many Nissan Titan trucks do you see on farms? Brand loyalty is still huge.
NASCAR recognized part of this and that's why they still force the block to identify the manufacturer... a Ford block is a Ford car, Toyota block is a Toyota car, Chevy block is a Chevy car. Sadly for NARCAR all the car bodies are the same with the exception of a few stickers. NASCAR dramatically underestimated how brand loyal their fan base was and their "car of tomorrow" was when NASCAR started is dramatic decline in popularity. Watch ANY Pro Stock class and see how many people cheer for Warpath and how many cheer for Beyond Limits. Both have a Massey hood but one is Deere powered and one is a Perkin's block like Massey sent from the factory with the matching hood for the big V-8. No offense to the Hart's because they do a great job, but there's no comparison to the cheering and the excitement when Warpath makes a pass. Brand loyalty may not matter to you, but know that it still matters to the majority of fans. Yes, the trends show that it's becoming less important, but it's still very, very relevant to the majority. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
First off Jake i whas the original one that help start the LLSS class made the second hook at the first pull ever we tried going by the old ntpa rules that the crank had to swing in the block and the engine had to run on the original fuel it was designed for ,That didnt go over because everyone wanted crossflow heads I ran a Cockshutt and Cockshutts are the only tractor made that had a 6cyl engine that had a True factory not fake replacement engine made by Hercules with a crossflow head and spark plugs THAT the original crank would swing in thats were all these other engine combination converting diesels to sparkplugs and the chassis combinations came around in the LLSS so there should be know reason you cant put a 1070 hood on a 560 with a navistar its just comes down to some of that fake factory replacement stuff thats went on for years in all the classes .Now its been proven and debated in lots of post on hear who cares what sheet metal its got as long as the rest of it meets the rules FANS IN THE STANDS DONT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE SO SAYS |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Lewis , Our fans are smart people that do know the difference what's under the hood. Factory replacement was brought on by the manufacturer not the ones making the rules. That's where the research of the tractor manufacturer comes in handy because so many manufacturers have combined. What's hurt this class in the big cubed motor (470). Because now the engine options are wide open . With the small cubes you had to use what's available. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Orphan
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5.9’s and dt360’s are readily available, as much so as the 466. Not sure I get what you mean David |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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?
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I think what David is saying is -- 470 came out in a bigger chassis tractor and LLSS is supposed to be a small tractor chassis class -- thats why i dont understand why anyone would want the weight over 6000 lbs, ( hard to justify letting weight be higher than 6000lbs an not let big cubes an big chassis tractor run ), 1066 with a 706 rearend can get there, so can the Fords with a 4000 rearend an a John Deere 4040 - those were never supposed to be able to get that light but they did, SO KEEP THE WEIGHT LOWER MAKES IT MORE EVEN -- diesel with the extra weight an torque at ANYTHING over 6000lbs has an unfair advantage. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
The last poster gets the point, this class was originally set for the small cube tractors . And this post is not for to discuss the weight . I was simply responding on why different engine combinations that we have researched and can be used in the LLSS because that class was mentioned. Don't get me wrong , we had to make a rule to de-cube big motors to keep guys in the class, but that's why we have the 410 limit. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Moot.
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This argument is a moot point. A top pro or super at this point should be labeled a mod. You have a recast block, and head. Billet rods and crank. Transmission and rear end are component. The hood and sheet metal are fabricated. You won't find a single nut or bolt that would be left from the factory. So why on earth should it matter what engine is in one of these things? If you are willing to spend the kind of money to make one of these things, I think you should be able to use whatever engine you want. If you are talking about a class that a tractor still has to be somewhat of a tractor then an argument could be made for matching engines to manufacturer. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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?
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David your right, this post wasn't/isn't about the weight of the class but the higher weight opens the door for the bigger cube tractors even at 410 cubes thus reverts back to the original question of different engine combinations, i can get on YouTube an watch your class run and there usually 8 to 10 tractors at your events, i can also get on YouTube and watch BOB or TNT in Ky at 6000lbs an see anywhere from 15 to 25 tractors at any given time. So which is better ? Can't deny the numbers !!!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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My Dream
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I still dont really see a good reason to not allow 470 without coolers. There are tons of parts and builders out there and it is probably the most affordable way to build a llss. If your reasoning is to make the tractors seem more stock appearing because thats the size engine it came with then you need to be reminded that these are pulling tractors not show tractors. Its time to get with the times and be like other llss clubs and follow the national rules. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 632 |
Lewis pulled in that one as well i think several of us did then, even some of us from south of ky ran in the 5700 |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Old Fan
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Tractors all weigh the same. They all have the same size rear tires and drawbar height and length. The same overall chassis length. Same turbo inlet/outlet size. Let them run whatever engine they want. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I agree with this 200% Fans are NOT stupid. They know what is going on!!!!! I heard years ago that the fan in the stands won't KNOW the difference between a component tractor (which I have now) or a real tractor and I said bs on that statement when I heard it. Flame away I DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Your wrong Lewis
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You were not one of the first to start the class in Ky, the class used to be called 5700lb Super Farm before the name change to Light Limited Super Stock, I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT, !!!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Paull
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I JUST LOVE HOW EVERYONE HAS ALL THE ANSWERS, -but not many know the "QUESTION" !!!!!!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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super freaky
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you are wrong lewis is 100% correct pulled the 5700 super farm back in the day and the first few years of llss before they changed to 30.5 tires why do people always want to change the rules of a class instead of complying to the rules of the class |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
From the original rules we started with 5700 was the weight because role cages was required the weight went to 6000 when 30.5 tires were allowed nothing else was changed for years until we got some SSdiesel guy in the class that couldnt get them running with out wind mills big enough to power a house on the diesels |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Your wrong Lewis
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FYI --- the 5700lb Super Farm Class was started in 1984 before ORVTPA, Randy Payne, Harvey Shear, Kent Anderson, Tom Haines,Paul Yates, Joe Perkins,Paul Berge, Roger Settles, Joe Webster, all use to run at Temple Hill a couple times a month behind the School an various other places, Randy Payne had the sled back then, so not sure where you think it started, im sure any of those guys listed will verify !!! Mr Hall of Famer - lol lol blahhhaaa !!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Old buddy ive pulled behind the school to you are talking about the old 5500 Super farm that class was dead and gone way befor the llss im good friends with all those guys youve mentioned thats left Two different classes although i could give you a history lessen there two maybe another day |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Well if you know that for a fact, then you know for a fact that i dominated the modified stock class even though they made several rule changes just to try hold me back. I'm sure you also know for the other fact that if i could get some rules together and at least 6 tractors to obligate, then ORVTPA would start the class. But just as you say, we adopted the LLSS later. I was also an original member with ORVTPA when we took over Waddy truck pullers. How bout that? You want cookies and ice cream with that? The Chappels, David and his son, Michael Jackson, Hildebrand, Tommy Stringer, Steve Meredith, Kendall Harlow and myself were the first LLSS pullers. Now put your name up there and talk to me. And yes, there was a 55 super farm that had already died several years before, but nothing is the same. The Rooster Cruiser was my first LLSS in class but you already knew that, didn't you? So for the record, I am Hall of Fame material since the class has taken off so good. P.S. My wife edited this for me since I can't spell. LOL Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 12:30PM by Lewis Conner. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 632 |
kim needs to tie you back up before you get in trouble, it just seems some people have to have their way no matter what history has taught us |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
Put away the tape measure and bring this thread back to what the OP was asking about.
CP |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Lewis
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Your rite old George I’m just like Rodney danger field I get no respect |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Lweis Fan
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Rodneys got a star on the sidewalk in holleywould ( hollywould walk of fame) thou, yurs is comin, you got all our respect!!!! |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Well should have at least been a good story for Bryan with a little re wording maybe when it makes it to the farm show ,But thats why im a little defencive for the class although im not pullingit anymore and went to something a little harder to handle garden tractors they try to kill you |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 04/07/2008 Posts: 781 |
can john deere run a john deere V8 IN SS OR PRO STOCK |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Answer
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Can’t in prostock for sure |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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get back
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just wondering who were the top runners in the 5500 super farm then and what were the rules back then sounds fun |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 632 |
randy payne and david bewley wore both hard to beat, there was a 180 allis can't remeber his name but he ran hard, we always could find a top four but hard to get to the top |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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get back
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what were the rules and what kind of tractor did you run |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Paul Yates ran good, i ran pretty good with the WD45, Joe Perkins had a 180 allis that ran good, Randy Payne ran good, i don't remember the rules exactly, alot of 4LH turbos were ran back then were run, 24.5 tires, dont remember the cube limit. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Single turbo no alcohol gas was allowed turbo through carb. Tractors with no turbo could run nitrous and as many carbs as you wanted Steve Shirley,s cockshutt was another tough one thats the best i can remember also ntpa crank had to swing .Ionly pulled that class a few times with a modified stock |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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get back
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where was Shirley from and are there any of those tractors for sale sitting around |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Shirley was from southern Indiana somewhere, as for where are some of the tractors at, don't really have any idea, my WD45 burnt in a barn fire an was a complete loss, Joe Perkins tractor ended up being a Light Super dont know about the rest. |
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Re: Age class motor combinations
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Shirly was from Jasper Ind and still has his Randy Payne,s ended up being Stringers llss her money Paul Yates or part of it ended up Paul Berge tractor Later went back Roger Settles became Grease Monkey Harvey still has his |
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