06:29:56am, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
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Flagman Safety
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I can’t recall another topic like this. Are the pulling track flagmen safe in the event of a major engine explosion. I have also seen a video of a flagman needing to dive over the wall when a 4WD truck front end broke and headed straight towards the starting line flagman. When should/could a red/green light system remotely controlled by a track safety person be put in place instead of 2 flagman. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Could not agree more tractor pulling could have a light system and keep the flag person out of the way! |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
I have written before that at NTPA and PPL major events there needs to be 2 flagmen at the finish line of the track
How many times have you seen the flagmen move in front of the moving vehicle to see if they go out of bounds on the other side of the track Not a very safe move. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Yes 100% Yes, until then standard PPE, would be a good start. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 04/14/2021 Posts: 27 |
We already have red light/green light in the antique world. When the sled lights go from red to green, the lights at the end of the track go from red to green. In this case, I would think they would need to be able to be controlled by a track official instead solely the sled itself. The sled should be in the loop too, so green can't be given without the sled being ready, and red can be shown in the event of a sled malfunction/emergency. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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More times I already thought that the probability of getting a severe injury during an engine explosion is somehow for track personell much higher than for anyone else.
I mean, if we start to think about the whole landscape of possibilities to spread fast debris, the likelihood of which spot along the track it will happen, the typically angle and distances, we shall end up that there is a significant risk for flag people. Maybe it's worth to start at the very beginning. Which potential risks are present for flag people to get injured? - Get hit/overrun by track service vehicle (I already observed life). - Get overrun by pulling vehicle during the very last phase of the pull, in the proximity of the chalk line. - Get overrun by pulling vehicle due to chain/hook/hitch failure (Impressed me much: The Judge in 2021). - Get hit by clutch/transmission/drivetrain components at the early 10-20% of the pulling distance. - Get hit by clutch/transmission/drivetrain components at the last 10-20% of the typically pulling distance. - Get hit by turbo charger components, which can happen at all distances of the track. - Get hit by engine block shrapnel, internal components, also at every distance. - Get hit by blower drive pulleys. - Get hit by debris of disintegrated intake manifold/intercooler items. - Get hit by front wheels which had come loose, in the 2nd half of the track. - Get hit by rear wheels which had come loose, at all distances. - Get hit by high temp and high pressure liquid stream (I've also seen life). - Set on fire in case of igniting oil pan content mixture of oil/fuel in a huge fire ball. That are only the few that comes into my mind, there are for sure more to mention by other people. And some additional boundary conditions seem to be related, or worth to mention that they could have a major impact as well: - The ability to have a clear sight of view, with as less dust/smoke/vapour as possible. - The likelihood that 4wd frequently perfomr suddenly quick sharp turns in case of steering failures (front axle breakage etc). - The faster the pulling train goes down the track, the less reaction time is left to sidestep and avoid to get overrun. - The more the place is packed, the higher the probability of collision and/or hit by parts (e.g. indoors vs outdoors). To me it ends up that against a few listed risks it is possible to reduce the consequences of an incident by add-on measures, alike frequently teaching people about this matter etc, provide combat helmets and bullet-proofed vests, mandate long sleeve fire resistant clothes in general, etc. But this all covers only partially and not quite well. The best way to get rid of much as possible risks is to get the people out of the risk area. Aim for an approach which deals with signal lights. And take only track personal into this area during hooking and unhooking, but not during the "hot" phase (pull). BR |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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REMEMBER WHEN
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I was extremely young when it happened but I remember Dennis Christensen missing his Brother finish flag man Timmy by inches. Tim was backpedaling and tripped as Dennis was going left. Doc say Timmy fall and Mashed the left binder so hard the left rear wheel actually stopped turning. I would be all in favor of a light system. im sure that there are many near misses every year but as speed increases reaction time decreases. |
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Re: Flagman Safety/ unhooking
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Thoughts on, making a standard operating procedure, that the sled always pulls ahead to unhook?
Any safety to be gained, and how would it relate to the hooks per hour, count? |
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Re: Flagman Safety/ unhooking
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
Not sure there'd be a lot of difference. Sled has to remain frozen for such period of time for the laser to be shot, so is it a difference maker? Maybe?
Putting guys on the sled with a telehandler to start though I think would for sure speed stuff up! CP |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Well, using the sled more often to unhook instead of the vehicle itself, is an interesting opportunity.
Beside all, I like to add two other aspects which deal with the probability of human failures or mishaps that can occur. a) Normally, if a sled malfunction occurs, e.g. box movement stuck, this shall be covered by adequate safety function in the sled, triggering kinda emergency stop etc. It's imaginable that in smaller clubs, with not that far sophisticated sleds, in such a situation it all depends on the reaction time of the flagman at the end, to signalize the puller that something seriously is going wrong and he has to prepare for a stop, taking back the thrust lever etc. If in such a situation, the flagmen isn't 100% into it, he become a risk factor. This also could be prevent by the introduction of an appropriate signal lights system. b) As "REMEMBER WHEN" already mentioned, since speed increase, the reaction time to avoid a collision or get overrun nowadays decide about the health of track staff. What if a flagman stumble and fall during action? Okay, some people would now say you even can stumble on the pavement and fall on the tarmac right in front of the next passing car. I guess a major factor is that nobody expect that this could happen. Especially the puller who is perhaps heading with 20-30mph to the typically spot where the flagman normally should stand, quite clear expects that he will left his lane at least in the latest possible moment. Many years ago, a former flagman told me that he had a real close call, because one of his boots has literally been glued into the clay, and the turbine mod has eaten up the distance to him quite fast. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Tell you what, the day they mandate fire proof clothes and helmets to to be a tech official is the day id quit. The heat in the summer compiled with that type of safety wear for a 3-4 hour show would likely do more damage then could be done in the possibility of an incident. I watched a tech almost have a heat stroke this past summer wearing jeans and t shirt. The tech officials are responsible for were they are on the track and keeping themselves at a safe distance from the vehicles at all times. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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I get you concerns however, Structural Fire Fighters, members of our Military, and NASCAR pit crews all operate in protective equipment, at far higher temperatures.
I have not, researched what PPE, would be the best fit, I will say Structure gear is not, the answer. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Moderator Registered: 02/21/2012 Posts: 797 |
You must have written that safety sheet I received years ago that said that a hard hat weighed less than the helmets worn by soldiers in World War II. If I get shot at moving dirt, I’m in the wrong line of work. lol John Murray Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama. Watch LGP on YouTube Like LGP on Facebook 
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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NASCAR outlines proper pit-road safety apparel
ByStaff Report NASCAR.com June 3, 2015 at 12:00 AM Rules to take effect in all three series starting this weekend NASCAR formalized expanded standards for pit road safety apparel Wednesday, making specially certified gloves, head socks and underwear mandatory for over-the-wall pit crew personnel in all three national series. The move became official through a bulletin added Wednesday to the NASCAR Rule Book. The requirements go into effect beginning with this weekend’s events for the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series at Pocono Raceway and the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series at Texas Motor Speedway. The measures were spurred by a major pit-road fire, which injured three crew members during an XFINITY Series race April 24 at Richmond International Raceway. Two members of the Richard Childress Racing No. 62 team for driver Brendan Gaughan were briefly hospitalized; a third crewman, working in a neighboring pit stall for the JGL Racing team, was treated and released the same night from the track’s infield care center. NASCAR competition officials had already recommended that teams use the apparel approved by the SFI Foundation, a California-based organization that sets motorsports industry standards for racing equipment. Teams in all three national series were notified May 13 that the recommendations would soon become a rule. Robin Pemberton, NASCAR Senior Vice President of Competition and Racing Development, said last month that many teams were already in compliance with the new rule. The three weeks from when teams were notified until the rule went into effect, Pemberton said, were meant to allow teams and manufacturers of safety equipment enough time to get crew members up to code. "We were going down this path anyway," Pemberton said. "I use the (phrase) ‘you get a tap on the shoulder every now and then’ … (the Richmond incident) helped to put it on the fast track. We’ve all worked together and a lot of times it’s better if we throw a rule out there for everybody to comply. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
You have to remember the tech guys are STANDING in direct sunlight for 3-4 hours. These nascar guys are SITTING in a truck in the AC or in the shade. When there sitting down waiting for pits or a crash they are not wearing there helmets face mask and gloves. They aren't fully suited for more then a few minutes at a time. HUGE difference |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Its true the track rescue crew, is in the truck. I am talking about the cars pit crew. The gear they use changing tires, looks like a better option than the Fire Fighting gear, I'm trained in. I ran across this [slideplayer.com] (Hope it loads), I was surprised, by the tractor pulling, in the prestation. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Pit crew guys stand or sit around in the shade over 70% of the time. No helmets, face mask or glove with there suits un zipped. still a huge difference. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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So a light system, should replace the flagman? Tee shirt and shorts, and no eye protection is not good enough, unfortunately. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
I do know our guys at Badger State wear goggles and have flame resistant shirt , pants and gloves. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Good deal
Thanks |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Dave Dann
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The worst accident I have witnessed in doing 48 years of pulling photography, was a so-called Work Stock diesel pickup (it was pretty enhanced!!), in 2019, split a cast iron drive line yolk. We heard that yolk crack and I instantly knew this likely was not going to be good. It hit the pull's sponsor new RV (on display at the end of the bleachers) window and the yolk bounced off onto a young mother's head (who was sitting in the RV's shade), with her immediately screaming, with blood profusely pouring!!! I was about 30' from there. That yolk went spewing to the right of the vehicle.
However, in the 3 severe engine blowups I witnessed and have each photo in prime engine explosion (Wileman, Boxler. Laux), the exploding engine pieces very predominantly fly to the left of the vehicle. In 2 of those 3, I was to the tractor's right and glad I was with my telephoto lens. And people were hit by those pieces. In the case of Laux's, I started the night on the track's left side but after the first class, I moved to the right side and mighty glad I did. Because where that engine came apart, spewing a whole bunch of stuff into the spectator crowd, I would have been in direct line of the shrapnel, too. But I was glad I was on the track's right side. My buddy was at the backside of the spectotor's on the track left side (where I originally was) and he saw & felt the shrapnel. My point is that the exploding engines predominately 'trash' to its left. And where do most finish end flag people work? On the pulling vehicles left side. "just an idea", that was a very selfish and irresponible attitude. Yeah, just let everyone do whatever they want. Really? Then I really do not want to be there. Life, in all aspects, have rules. Go outside of those rules and bad things can and do happen. We have just spent over 2 weeks on big discussions of Risk Management. Which means trying to make a speciality, high horsepower motorsport, safer for you and everyone else. So we can all continue to enjoy a pssionate sport we care about. And I am still on a campaign that there are a lot of brush pulls that need to clean their act up of specifying rules and teching vehicles and enforcing their rules. And making certain you have the appropriate insurance and emergency response vehicles with personnel on site during the actual pull. I do not attend very many brush pulls and when I do, I witness too many of these safety infractions. At least, the major sanctioning bodies, abide by this. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
Dave, if I am remembering correctly 2 tractors after Boxlers, Roger Early did the same thing. It was certainly a rough session of DSS's. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Just came out today world of outlaws our looking at putting fire safty equipment on the cars! for 2024! |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Your living in a dream world if u think that's what we wear. We hare required to wear jeans a button up shirt and eye protection. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Fan69
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Structure FF Gear in not needed I agree, I am a firefighter 25+ years and also have worked NASCAR events and we wear two piece single layer suite if on Pit road and wera a double layer if assigned to on track response which is typical NASCAR protocol |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 257 |
I'd say you are correct. That would be pretty hot to wear a firesuit for 3 or 4 hours. 
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Re: Flagman Safety
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just a thought. let the flag man decide what hes comfortable wearing. i mean cmon we are all here for the same reason to see how far we can push something that was built to handle way less than what we want to put it through. if you want to protect everyone go to another arena. this is tractor and truck pulling Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2022 04:41AM by John Murray. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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xxx
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And - j u s t a n i d e a you would be the first one suing. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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A few things to remember
3 to 4 hours, is not a true number when the track grooming and sled weight changes, are deducted. The flagman should be, switched out every other class. If the Flagman is getting paid, he or she is an employee and will use, what he or she is told to use. Most pulls (not all) are at night, and on rented ground. The land owner, has the last say. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
In our local club, the flagman is part of the show and has a fan club in his own right. I do wish he would keep more distance between him and the pulling vehicle.
There are other local clubs that use a red/green light tower controlled by the sled operator, this has the advantage of not having a flagman on the track and also allow the sled operator to stop the pull if something is wrong. However, once the pull starts, I do not think most operators look at the light until they are close to being stopped. Years ago at a pull at the Mercer Pa racetrack, I thought the flagman had been run over, at the end of a pull as the flagman was walking up to the tractor the hitch broke and the tractor leaped forward. The flagman was quick enough to dive out of the way before he was hit, but it was very close. I do not think fire-suits or other safety gear is necessary, but I do believe some flagman get numb to the risk and put themselves in harms way. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Paull
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We all get numb, look at Pearl harbor, 9-11, ect, driving on ice and in white out very cold conditions, Life is full of issues and we do get complacent. Just like holding and using and handling a weapon(gun), we need to be vigilant at all times, driving any pulling vehicle in the pits, shop, loading unloading hooking and unhooking, parts are modified, custom, under hard usage, staying alert is of utmost importance. We need flag persons to communicate with the drives all the way thru the pull experience, Some videos from our friends across the Pond are shown with PPE on the flag people. Keeping a high awareness for the possible danger needs to be remembered by all that watch, help, promote and enjoy and participate in any way. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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I have been a while with exxon mobil on gas fields. I remember one summer there we had for almost 3 weeks in a row between 80-90deg. Wrenching flanges up to 9h a day in the sun with fire resistant clothes, glasses, gloves and hard hat can become somehow a physical challenge.
And yes, supervisors also talked about that they are aware about the effects, take care about us with more breaks in between, watch that everyone takes his water etc. Because they knew that these conditions may could lead to an increase of personal failures, misjudgements, critical situations etc. Easy to recognize that this kind of job isn't made for everyone, or the other way around, not everyone can stand this shift. What I want to express is that sometimes we need to have appropriate people for particular positions or jobs. Is this contractible to track staff? Maybe we can start to differ and categorize a bit, at which position or at which function we need individuals with particular qualifications. Maybe the people which hook/unhook at the sleds pan are not that much affected by the above listed risks than e.g. flag people. So they don't necessarily have to wear the same protection stuff, and they don't have to bring the same physical abilities. For instance it could be said, the track staff generally have (must) to wear long trousers, gloves, glasses, and it's recommended to wear long sleeve shirts/jackets. But furthermore, in addition especially the flag people must wear long sleeve shirts, and it's recommended to wear as most of these items in a fire resistant quality. And if one person claims two or more different roles, e.g. last flag person is also foreseen for unhooking, than of course the higher requirements of the combined roles rules. That's only an idea, not even a proposal at all. Furthermore, with respect to the comment of "Oly", yes it's not justifiable to have flag people up to 4 hours in the burning sun. And I agree, the article about NASCAR, their pit crews, and safety safari etc don't directly mention that in reality these people are most of the time choose a bit more comfort, unzip their overall, take off their gloves and helmets and put them only back on if necessary. But to me it's even not necessary to have this situation at all. I mean, it's maybe not necessary to have this full style of protection over a 4h show with X classes, because it's rare that they all play on the same high risk level. I've seen some pulling weekends, over 2 days, with really much pulling, up to 8h a day, mostly farm related stuff. Beside the 10-12 farm related classes they have had a match comp of 8-10 Pros. During all other classes the track staff wore long trousers and tshirts. But for the time span during the PS match comp they switched to firesuits, and this for the two flag people only. After this class had been done, they switched back to their more comfortable clothes. It was in early summer, at around 70-75deg. And they choose rather younger people for that job. And even if a period of several high risk classes in a row last 2-3h, it's up to the organizing people to either choose people which are fit into this enduring job, or spread it into several shifts and change people every hour to ensure that nothing critical can happen. And again, it's just an idea, not even a proposal. Furthermore we're already seeing that it's related to the inherent risk of particular classes. Don't apply binary thinking alike 0/1 or on/off, and state that such orientation for safety approaches must be generally valid for all kind of pulling classes that comes to our mind. It's absolutely not necessary to have the same fire resistance quality standards for track staff at garden pulling or antique pulling events as for the real hot classes alike PS, SS, and mods. So, for me it makes perhaps sense to differ and categorize a bit more, have some recomm, coupled with additional strict requirements, and this all depending on the risk level of the specific class in scope. And remind what the article also is telling, first there have been some recomm, than after a time something happened, than the recomm became requ, and most people were already well prepared because most of them already followed the former recommendations. I guess this indicates that it's just a matter of time until something automatically will change. BR |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
If this story continues on there will be nothing but robots for flag men and we’ll be watching behind bulletproof glass, come on guys none of this is feasible there are way too many brush pulls to even think about it
Go back to the original topic which is make the vehicles as safe as possible and enforce the safety everywhere |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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100% feasible,
Simplify a matter of, if you refuse to use PPE (at a yet to be determined level), we will get someone who will. Not that tuff. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Joey
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The problems are all the same whether it be rules, classes, safety, cubic inch, rpms, speed, and or payouts, WE ALL VARY IN OUR IDEAS, VALUES AND INTERPRETATION OF INTERESTS. Self serving and not looking at overall good for the majority. What is feasible, common sense and possible and can be done with efficiency and economic implementation. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Ill Ryan
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Are you a flagman? I'm not, but I'd rather leave it up to the ones who are to determine what they should wear to protect themselves and do the job well. They are on their feet the entire event whether anything is going down the track or not, they are still watching the track prep to see that its done properly, talking to pullers, and a dozen other things that the rest of us don't think about. Maybe the big pulls can have enough personnel to switch flagmen occasionally, but not any that I've been to. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Have I? yes, along with every other job involved at a pull.
If you think fair boards, haven't been following this page, your mistaken. If you think, they haven't watched recent social media coverage, your mistaken a 2nd time. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,445 |
We do not leave safety rules up to those who are in harms way. We set uniform, sensible rules and everyone within an organization follows them. We don't get to pick and choose what rules we want to follow. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Paull
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Yes, to that, we Live in a social society, have rules, laws, social mores, and guidelines to protect the good of all, we don't let children vote, drive or drink, we can not let bias and prejudice keep our safety and wellbeing up to those that don't value it high enough. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Ill Ryan
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Some of you guys here are on the verge of going off the deep end on your safety crusade. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Georgee
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If honest strides are not taken and implemented soon, a death or multiple injuries with DOA, might just change pulling forever.With drivershafts in the stands, tractors over barriers, truck and tractor engines launched similar to the Space Booster Rocket, and whole units over the dirt piles, we all are VERY LUCKY. - so far. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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I have
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I was a finish line flagman for a few years. We wore flame resistant pants and long sleeve shirts and safety glasses. I wore leather gloves and steel toe work boots as my choice. As someone above stated we sometimes become a little complacent. I had a tendency to walk towards the tractors or trucks as they were slowing down. I’ve been hit by engine parts, jumped out of the way of tires and caught a couple rocks in the chest from mods. Those left nasty bruises If they hit me in the teeth I would be taking the new ones out every night. Had a pulley from a unlimited mod blower go right past the end of my flag. It can be a dangerous job. There were times where the clothing I had on was very hot I can’t imagine wearing a fire suit The idea of switching out flagman is great but we struggled finding 4 guys to work a pull. I don’t really have any good suggestions for flagman safety. Trying to keep parts contained would be best. Allowing the use of billet or recast blocks will certainly help. Expensive I know. But … |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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xxx
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However, -NONE of the flying parts you mentioned were from the block, so we have a more serious problems than just OEM. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Posts: 756 |
Many years ago (1980 maybe) I was taking pulling event photographs for a local newspaper in Elkhorn Wisconsin NTPA pull, I was at the big end of the track, maybe 330 foot. A Super Stock 4320 broke his hitch at about 250 foot mark. The tractor launched and all 4 tires were off the ground, By the time he got stopped the tractor was past 330 mark. I had to scramble just to get out of the path. I NEVER GOT A PHOTO!!!!!!
This was WAY before speed sleds happened. Tire speeds were much slower, but still the acceleration of the unhooked tractor was impressive. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Lets not forget the other "track" people involved ,scraper-roller operators, hook and unhook personel, even sled operators. On multi track pulls they are in harms way when the opposite track is pulling and because they must concentrate on their jobs they don't have the opportunity to see something coming at them. While bad for flagmen, the so called drag racing would be safer for them. Not advocating for it, just saying. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,521 |
I was announcing,a block split, I got hit in the chest with something ,on my clipboard was some pieces of piston rings |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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I have
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To xxx
Had a piston land at my feet and had a couple blocks break one completely exiting the chassis. So yes I had engine internal parts flying around me. I’m not saying the cause is just lOEM blocks. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Joey
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A piston and rod can "WINDOW" a billet block tooooo. |
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"Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Another component of this issue that we really only see at BG is "drag racing." For some reason, it's always been an issue at this event where the track officials are in their own little world, oblivious to the other track when imo the pull should be one coordinated event.
Solutions to this have been proposed but not yet implemented. This is a track safety issue. A bouncing tire or exploding parts from one track could easily injure an official on the other track, especially if those officials are oblivious to a powerful vehicle pulling at the same time on another parallel track just feet away while focusing on a pull on their own track happening simultaneously. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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hazard
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Michael, have you already forgotten about the '21 Enderle incident, with Theobald & a Mini, side by side?
cpr has a great photo of it, that he shared with us, on here. The problem is, the NTPA head tech official promotes this side by side drag race pulling. He has even personally told me it is cool. Would you think, with what his position is charged with for responsibilities, to be the first person to condone such a practice? |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
However cool some may think it was, not everyone feels that way. It was irresponsible. That nobody was injured doesn't make it less so anymore than a stupid stunt on Jackass suddenly is responsible as long as the idiot doesn't kill or maim himself. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2022 05:04AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
3-4 hour is exactly what it is with track grooming and sled changes. We don't get to take a break during the show. Apparently you don't go to ntpa events. And as a far as mostly night pull, yes they are but we are also there walking the pits for 4 hours before the show. And yes do we get paid sure. but if you truly knew what techs get paid for an 8 hour day of pit walking, teching, setting up track, working the pull and tear down, you would wonder why we do it. A lot of us do it because we enjoy it. Hell I volunteer at a few local events because I enjoy it. And at the local level finding volunteers is hard enough let alone telling them they have to wear firesuits the hole day when its 100 degrees. Even at the ntpa level, getting good techs is a struggle let alone with some of the best techs ageing who knows how long they will be around the sport. Im 33 and dont see anyone else my name volunteering to be a tech at higher levels then local |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Trying to be civil here,
I'm the last person, to wine to about cant get volunteers, 3rd generation Fire Fighter ,25 years of fulltime and volunteer department experience. If you want to impress me, join your local FD, put the gear on and work a few barn fires, in August. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Im just stating facts. This older generation of techs wont be able to handle the gear in heat and would be forced out, and younger techs are hard to come by.
This has nothing to do with being a fireman. I know they do a lot of work in heat with a lot of gear on but at the same time that is VOLUNTARY. You know what is to be done going into it. Not taking anything away from it. At the same time Techs right now know what they have to deal with going into it, and all I said to begin with is that if I am forced to wear that gear I would no longer be a NTPA tech. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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lutefisk and lefsa
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I have to think, your going to get your wish.
That is the 3rd time, you've drug your employer, into this and the 2nd time you've threatened to resign. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Not worried either way. Its cut and dry. I didn't threaten anything its a statement. The ntpa wont care about my opinion on it, there going pass whatever rules they want to. Its my choice to make a decision based off of that. No one is forced to work anywhere, you make that decision based of what the employer offers. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Greg k
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Aaron, maybe you should take a breath. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
I'm not mad, I'm not worked up, I'm just stating how I feel on it. However people take what I say is on them not me. ITs my opinion. Just like every other post on here is an opinion. Some people just take it to serious. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2022 01:12AM by Oly. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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HP
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I have worked with Robert Menn, and have watched Scott Doty work for many years.
If you think they don't know what is going on with the track next to them, you are very wrong! They are the best in the business, bar none. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Yes, but just how many Menn's and Doty's does the sport have , or how many are as good as they are, especially when it's a volunteer situation at a state or local pull ? |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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HP
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Point taken, but the original post I commented on claimed they weren't paying attention. That point is false. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
HP, no argument about Menn and Doty. Those two may be the best in the business, not disputing that. My point is more broadly about safety than who two individuals are. If flagmen (whoever they are) are focused on a vehicle under full power coming at them, they are not going to be able to also focus on a vehicle simultaneously running on the other track. Conversely, if flagmen are focused on a vehicle under full throttle on the other track, they're less than focused on a vehicle at full power their own track. HP, if they are paying attention to both tracks, then why would both tracks ever be running at the same time? Granted this is between 10-25% of the hooks at BG, certainly a long way from the majority. For safety reasons, it should be 0%. Many things about a pull with high hp, high wheel speed, heavy vehicles are hard to control. This is a very simple thing to control. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2022 11:30PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
People have referenced the side by side pass at the Enderle. I think you are projecting a heck of an assumption on Messrs. VanNatta and Cronkleton and their abilities to trust each other and handle their own tracks respectively. You don't just get to do the Enderle, they earned it by being professional all season. They knew exactly what they were doing and all this alarmism is unfairly discounting the abilities of the men and women doing this. CP |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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ain'tnofool
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PROFFESSIONALISM, - crapolaaa, nothing in the human body, mind or past experience, wisdom,knowledge, history -or future man can stop an accident, cataphoric scenario from happening, -these guys might be good, but not Super Men !!! The shizzzzzz hits the fan so fast no one can react in time. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 662 |
I'm glad this isn't a dragracing forum. You guys would be apoplectic and have killed the whole sport.
I give up. CP |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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lutefisk and lefsa
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What some see as alarmism, is seen be others as risk management.
Grandstand time is limited, many other options, are available. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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plum krazy
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Reality and truth is what happens in life,-Period, the only alarmism is that some choose to not accept, believe,see,hear or otherwise -so label it anything you feel at the moment is appropriate, but NOTHING CHANGES THE FACTS AND TRUTH. These events, accidents, explosions are going to happen more frequently, not less, we have been Lucky and warned several times, it will be less fortunate in the future |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
CP
They just don’t know what they missed that night,like it or not that was one the neatest things I’ve seen in pulling in a long time, no one got hurt,no equipment was damaged and the crowd loved it If we’re gonna micro manage pulling we better focus on the equipment and not the officials |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Many words have been used, regarding this incident.
Lucky, Blessed, Fortunate, Miracle, Investigation, OHSA, Traumatized, Lawsuit, Settlement, Your the first to use, Neat. What some see as micromanaging, other see as a DUTY to ACT This is America, and every American has a right, to his or her opinion however, when its tied to a paycheck, one must question its sincerity. Equipment is replaceable, People are not. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Ok than can you justify all the track equipment that I had to look around the entire pull while a pull was happening Are those people not valuable? If you’re gonna micromanage people then you better make there’s no one on the other track, see how that goes when people are complaining about how long it takes |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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lutefisk and lefsa
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100% valuable, currently being looked into.
The feeling is, as long as they are in a enclosed cab, (built by a reputable manufacture) the danger is lessened. I have however, witnessed, sled and tractor windows, shatter. |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
I've got an idea. Lets put every track person in a steel cube with bullet proof glass! Every piece of track equipment must be autonomous including the sleds so that everyone can stay back 500 ft. from the track! |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Sounds like a bit much, but whatever you think.
When you get something built and tested, post a video. Thanks |
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Re: "Drag race" pulling endangers flagmen, to the original michael.
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
No need to build and test. They are everywhere banks, gas stations, jails etc. Problem solved!! Onto world hunger!! |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Kurt Schanou
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Since I never post on this page I thought I would add something to this post. :] Most of you may know me and for those that don't, I have spent the better half of more then 20 years standing out on the track flagging for tractor pulling. Over the years, I have been hit with rocks from mini rods, mod 4wd trucks and four engine mods. I have even been knocked out by one. I have been sprayed with diesel fuel, methanol, alcohol and hot water a number of times over my time. I have been hit with flying parts, avoided tires bouncing down the track and caught debris flying through the air with my hands . I have worked indoor tracks, outdoor horse arena's, wide tracks, narrow tracks, long tracks, short tracks. I have been knocked over while back peddling many times over the years. I have had to sprint at times to keep up with tractors after I realized they were going a bit faster then I thought :]. I have had to climb a fence to avoid being hit while standing inside a rodeo arena a time or two over the years. I have stood in very dark corners of tracks where I know tractors couldn't see you when they took off. Even with all of that, I would blame myself for making mistakes and not the equipment for failing. I know there is an inherited risk to stand at the end of the track and watch all that horsepower come straight at me. With that being said, its a rush like no other and I wouldn't replace it for anything. We have the best and worst seat in the house at times. Over the last twenty years, I have seen my fair share of mishaps occur and more often then not they could of been easily avoided. Track safety for a flagman starts with a good inspection. Part of being an official is knowing the equipment that is coming at you, Your one of the only people at every pull that gets to look under the hood of a lot of this equipment, it's your job as a flagman/tech to perform quality safety inspections before every event. This is your first line of defense on the track. A lot of tech/flagman rely on the unknown or the assumed known as I call it. Too many people just want to pull kill switches and move on and assume that all the safety equipment is there, hooked up and in good condition. I have done this myself at events, we all have. There are events where help is an issue, organizations are short handed, and pullers arrive late for events. So, equipment gets missed. As flagman you develop mental notes from all of these inspections, you know who has the top notch equipment and who has equipment that just gets by with all the minimal requirements to go down the track safely. You begin to develop a certain level of trust in that equipment and you know in the back of your mind whose equipment you need to be extra cautious when they hook to the sled and run verse others. You have to have a plan in your head of what your going to do if you need to get out of the way at all times. This is part of the reason for making sure all tracks are clear and have proper distancing on the sidelines and and the ends. I have always trusted the sleds that the tractors are hooked too and the tractor safety components to perform as designed. Do I become complacent at times during every pull? Yes, I do. Pulls get long, you grow tired and you begin to get tired especially if its super hot. You lose your focus a lot during a pull. Do I trust some peoples equipment and tractors more then others? Absolutely, and this goes back to what I have seen under the hoods over the years. I will get closer to vehicles that I know and trust, I will stay a lot further back from equipment that I don't know or trust. Is that wrong or right? To some it is, and I would argue that I have been doing this a long time and so far all is good. Another issue that flagman have to deal with is lighting tends to get difficult on a lot of tracks when the sun goes down and you have to really begin to rely on the sleds and their safety equipment more, The best invention for safety in my mine over the past 20 years has been the lighted LED flags that some people including myself have experimented with. They allow the driver of the tractor to see you better and if things were to go south fast, the red LED lights tend to catch drivers eyes a lot faster then just waving normal flags. Keep in mind that track flag people have the ability to move their feet, and when a track official gets stuck or plants themselves in one spot and doesn't adjust while the tractor or truck is in motion, they tend to be the ones that put themselves in harms way more often then not. They get out of position and then try and correct it and that is when they get put in harms way more often then not. Positioning and understanding where and how you should position yourself is really important. Knowing the proper distance is another very important factor. Your head has to stay on a swivel, you need to know your surroundings at all times. Another thing that end flagman need to do is keep their head in the game. To often the flagman start talking to people standing on the sidelines, they start to not paying attention to the track and how its being prepared for the next puller, they stop watching what it going on around them because they become distracted by their surrounding's. Flagman need to stay focused and do what they are out their todo at all times and that is FLAG the puller that is up next. They can't become the PR guy at the end of the track, they are not person that should be attacked by a bad call when it happens. Organizations have rules to follow for that. They have to avoid the distractions and keep their focus on the pull all night long. They need too flag the pull and avoid the distractions. I was reminded by a friend who was learning to fly an air plane a while back and his flight instructor when it was his time to fly solo, go into the cab of the plane and told him to FLY THE PLANE and when he asked what he met by that he restated to him remember that when the equipment fails, or there are distractions over the radio, that you FLY THE PLANE! In relation to the flagman, watch them the next time at a pull. Look and see how focused they are and how many distractions they have occurring around them. Are they flying the plane? Despite how focused they are at times a flagman will make mistakes, I know it seems crazy, but we do. I have made several over the years and it has cost me. I don't feel that its the pulls fault or the organizations fault when I make the positioning mistake or make a judgement era. That is a fatigue issue in my mind at most of those points. When it comes down to a flagman miss judging a situation, I don't care how much training they have had or years they have stood on a track, no additional PPE is going to make a difference at that point. You can add rules, add PPE, but at the end of the night its up to how good your flagman is at the end of the track and what level of competency they have with doing that job. Are they being trained right, are they being held accountable for what they are supposed to be doing? A lot of events still just put who ever raises their hand first at the end of a track? Its a pretty important position that should be occupied by your best staff members in my mind. A lot of pulls and organizations could do a lot to help with track safety the protection of their people better. Equipment is getting faster, speeds are getting faster, horsepower keeps growing. Having ranted for a while here, I know that there are many things organizations can change that will help make their events and track people be safer before any event every happens. In my opinion, I feel that the track is still very safe for flagman as long as they are following through with what they were trained to do. Flagman know the risk and difficult situation at times they are put in and your not going to get rid of all the risk no matter how hard you try. It's not possible. There is going to always be risk. I think we all know that. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Cant agree more Kurt! Well said! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2022 04:28AM by Oly. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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All good information, a lot of experience in that post, thank you for your input.
I have read it 3 time and taken many notes. So thank you again. The (sprayed with diesel fuel, methanol, alcohol and hot water), only reinforces the need for PPE. Will PPE do anything, to overcome lack of experience, absolutely not. It sure will be nice, when your rolling around on the ground, attempting to put your self out. STOP- DROP- and ROLL, is pretty useless when your soaked in fuel. If I'm totally honest. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Thank you Kurt for sharing your experience with us. Well said, in the end the people alone also contributes much to the overall equation. The best PPE barely can't compensate deficits at this most important variable (people).
But it wasn't the initial statement, that PPE is the key to solve all problems. It's just an opportunity to decrease the probability of injuries, or help to lower their severity. It's up the organizing people to either recommend their use, or to demand something, or to do nothing at all. And if so, the track staff can wear what they want. Maybe some people would say, don't care about a split skull on the track, caused by parts flying around from an explosion which eventually could have been prevented or at least encapsulated more sufficiently. They probably say, hey it's track staff business, don't care about us. And yes, well, honestly I'm far more anxious about equivalent results on the grandstands. By the way, have you ever spend a thought on what your split skull on the track means for the sport? How high is the insurance fee that the promoter pays for a pulling weekend today? Guess how high will it be after an exemplary fatal incident happen, especially combined to a person in a strategic important track staff role? I guess it will be hard for the next promoters around to face the rise in insurance fees. A very private egoistic decision about your own PPE can harm the whole sport much more than you expect. I don't want to overestimate the value of PPE. It can't harm, and it will reduce some risks partially for a minor group of people. There is more to achieve at the root causes. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
This is turning into the same conversation as the vaccine mandate. Forcing people to do something they don't want to do. Multiple ACTUAL techs have said no to it on this and yet people who aren't a part of it keep saying PPE. Take a hint form the people who it actually affects. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2022 06:51AM by Oly. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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For an unbelievable number of times, the hired help is not in charge.
Scroll back through, see if you can find a pulling organization to hire, that uses PPE. Do with that, as you will. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
And you are? The keyboard warrior? Look back also when I said ntpa doesn't care what I say there going to do what they want! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2022 07:49AM by Oly. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Wow a keyboard warrior, that took you longer, than I would have bet.
Unlike you, I choose not to drag my employer(s) into this. I will say they have complete say, of who gets hired. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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I know the feeling, short of getting the crayons out, not sure what more I can do for you. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Wow are u in high school, just re wording everything I say to make yourself seem smart? Because that's all your doing. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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lutefisk and lefsa
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No , Haven't been since the 80;s I do have some college, not that it helps my spelling most days. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 460 |
Not trying to speak for Kurt but I know for our local fair we grab a few people who flag for other local shows. At the ntpa level we take a training class every year and a test we need to pass to be able to be a tech. The experienced techs I have been around are also willing to answer any question a new tech may have to help train them in. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
Kurt Schanou
Very well written. Who trained you? Who trains new flagmen? I believe you are correct that most venues grab whoever is willing to be flagman. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Kurt Schanou
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Who trained you? I started flagging with Outlaws back in the late 90's, They got me started in this sport, thank you Dennis Goodwin. Dave Nelson who is back with the Outlaws as most know was my mentor back in the day along with several other great guys that had a lot of experience and years of flagging. Tom, Dan and Dave all had a tremoundous amount of experience and really did a great job of teaching me along the way. We all learned a lot from each other and worked well to portect each other while out on the track and off the track. They really got me going and from that point I kept getting educating my self along the way. In recent years, I have spent more time on the PPL side out here in the midwest. John Mears and PPL have done a tremoundous amount to make sure we are safe and know what we should and shouldn't be doing while out on a track these days. Can't say enough for the work they have put in over the years working to keep flagman/tech educated and safe.
Who trains new flagmen? Typically your pulling association trains and works with flagmen. They will train and certify them during the offseason. I would go anywhere in the midwest if anyone felt they need additional training or mentoring. It would be my way of giving back to a sport that has given so much to me over the years. Fire Safety - One thing I didn't mention earlier was, if there was ever a place that PPE equipment would be warranted is with regards to fire safety. I have extinguished a ton of fires, I learned years ago some good tricks and tips to extinguishing a fire quickly. I have have seen some of the worst unfortunatly that have ever happened. I know most organizations have rules for fires and who puts them out once they get started. One reason for fire departments being at all the events. Flagmen are right there and I have had a few flash fires come very close to me over the years. I am foruntae and lucky at the same time as I am sure most flagmen have been. I have never been burned from one. Having said that, fires are not to be taken lightly. After a bad fire many years ago, A couple of us went to NHRA and got some pants and shirts that were supposed to be fire retardant. I have trusted those pants and shirts for years. They are not Firesuites by no means, but for the majority of what we have encountered I feel like they are safe. I can tell you I have yet to have them get burned through and I have had flames chase me a time or two. I have been hit with a few hit parts and the pants worked. I still have those pants today and they are my go to for every pull. Gloves are another must for flagman - I know some people wear leather gloves and some don't wear any at all. If your not wearing gloves then the next pull please at the very least start. To me fire retardant gloves are a must along with eye protection and making sure all your skin is covered. When its 110 degree out in July and August this sucks a lot, but if it keeps you from getting burnt, then I think its a must at the very least. Having said all of that, there is still a lot of other areas that we can look at to help insure good trackside safety with out loading up layers of items on flagman to wear. There has been some good discussion with regards to our safety. I don't think any of it is wrong or out of line. The sport is growing in many ways and along with growth comes complexity. What we have to be careful is managing that level of complexity. If it gets too complex, then your not going to be able to get the necessary people to do the job. Focus on the little things to start and do those little things consistenatly as an organization or as a flagman night in and night out all summer and you will reduce risk by quite a bit. Simple things like adding gloves, eye protection and long sleeve shirts can add a lot of safety to a flagmen and not make it to complex. Do that and you reduce your risk every night. If anyone has any questions or wants to speak about this regarding their organization or pull, I would be more then happy to speak one on one directly. Also happy to mentor any flagmen or flagwomen who are just starting out. I know finding staff is hard these days. Always happy to help this great sport keep progressing and growing. You can find me on Facebook. PM me from there. |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
Kurt
Thank you for your insights |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Well said Kurt |
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Re: Flagman Safety
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
What is going to happen when this happens at an indoor pull??? Not if, but when!!!! It will happen at an outdoor pull also some time when their is not enough run off room. |
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