08:24:00pm, Tuesday, April 23, 2024
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The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I received an email from a puller that showed the NTPA purse in 1978 to today's current payouts in each class. It's amazing how little (if any) the payouts have changed in 30+ years. I understand that pulling is a very expensive sport, when you factor in inflation the numbers are even worse. I'm not blaming the NTPA, it's just a fact of life. I guess my takeaway is that we should be thankful to the men and women that keep the sport going year after year. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Can you attach the pictures? It’s not allowing me. In 1978 the purse for NTPA GN was $5,000. If you fast forward to 2023 and this is just light supers. Purse for a 2 day event is $4600, single day event is $7,000 and Super National (Tomah and BG) are $6,100 a day. If purses had kept up with inflation which averaged 3.46% a year between 1978 and 2023 purses would be in excess of $23,0000 a class. If you look at the cost of building a tractor then, and if memory recall is correct, David P. Said he spent $25,000 on this first tractor. With a $5,000 purse paying $900 to win the tractor could have fed itself. To compete at the GN level today you are looking at $250,000 plus to build from ground up. A tractor can’t even feed itself anymore, meaning fuel to events and basic maintenance like plugs, clutch discs and everyday maintenance items. Not sure what the answer is but if anything purses have regressed. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Face in crowd
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Using an inflation calculator, $900 for first place in 1978 would be the same as getting $4150 for 1st place in 2023. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
You are correct in your math. Pullers have always accepted this is not NHRA or nascar, but the price of a pulling vehicle has gone up exponentially and the purses have regressed. This is why pulling needs a players association/union of some type. Historically pullers never stick together, always worried about their tractor and have failed to see the bigger picture, greater good. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Dixk,I'm a ntpa die hard loyalist,just tradition I suppose..
It's ok to blame the ntpa,I do,that's who is/was in charge. Pulling seemed to have sposorship,along with a few pullers,during the late 80s,early 90s.why did they leave. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Sponsor
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As a former sponsor one needs to understand where the dollars go. I believe we sponsored for $150k and NTPA took 35% out of the funding for administration, etc. The following year we chose to change to a contingency sponsor so all of the $$ went to the pullers and they (NTPA) were not happy.... |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Sponsorship and contingency are two vastly different programs. Wanna effect the sport. Take your 150k and direct it to the Pullers at your expense. It's hard to imagine 35% to ntpa and WPI/NTPA voicing their displeasure. When I worked there full time there was a staff over 10 people. Now less than ten. They have always given the bulk of sponsor money to the Pullers. The redirect of pre commit money is a great example. Admin cost would be in line with membership associations. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Patches brings up a great point. Sponsorship in 80s and 90s was about branding with the stars of the sport. In late 80s NTPA PULLERS, some of them board members DIDN'T want to be told what to wear (Wrangler) or take part in vehicle displays off site. MONSANTO marketing told me in early 90s to wait until all their current board members and executive staff retired then try again. Monsanto decision makers where at an event and saw their banners being taken down with no explanation.
Big issue with Sponsorship now is pulling reach outside of rural America is somewhat limited and somewhat geographic. Most like the power and the people, but can't get metrics to justify dollars. (Buy something from summit racing equipment they support lots of grass roots motorsports. Including ppl and NTPA.) Forrest Lucas called pulling the sport of his people. His and Charlotte's personnel like of the sport made it possible for pulling to get bucks. Pullers should have bought and their neighbors should have purchased lucas oil products. Enough so it made a difference instead of waiting for free cases. Drag racing and dirt track racing have big sportsman's programs and a big reach, numerous of tracks and races. |
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WPI Sets the purses, Sascha I may need your help on last part
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
WPI sets the purses. If you look at the 1985 Tomah poster that 110,000 was paid out to 16 classes over 5 sessions. In 2023 there will be 28 classes over 5 sessions. A season pass is $115, each session $25 or $45 for the day. A large part of why purses weren’t increased goes directly to the leadership of David P. He believed and as recently as his interview on Let’s Grow Pulling that pullers didn’t need more money because they would just spend it. So from 1978 to 2023 the light supers have gone from $5000 a session to $4600. If you are talking BG and Tomah it’s $6100 and single day events like Wellington is $7,000. Pictures are all attached above. The issue wasn’t created over night and won’t go away over night. One of the biggest problems between now and then is there are just too many classes. If you raise the purse and I will say if you raised them to $10,000 the first argument you are going to get is you will lose promoters. I’m ok with that because I’m a believer in quality over quantity. I think for the unlimited mods, a purse of 20,000 is more than fair. Unlike other motorsports WPI/NTPA doesn’t own their events. The one they do own is one of the best run and entertaining shows in the country, you know it as The Enderle. The point is they don’t have as much skin in the game as they could/should. If they lose a promoter now to another organization or brush pull historically they have been able to fill the date. The biggest issue is how in today’s society do you convince people to spend their entertainment dollar on tractor pulling given all the choices we have here in the USA. You will hear some compare USA events to European events and I hope to make it over seas someday to experience it. Over there I don’t believe they have as many motorsport options let alone entertainment options like MLB, NFL, NBA, NCAA sports, PBR, PRCA, Monster Truck Jam etc. So competition for the entertainment dollar industry isn’t quite as plentiful with options as it is here. I think it is imperative discussions start being had. I don’t have all the answers I have ideas I believe could work but we have to take blinders off and looking out for our own sandbox and look out for the sport as a whole. |
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Re: WPI Sets the purses, Sascha I may need your help on last part
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,144 |
"Over there I don’t believe they have as many motorsport options let alone entertainment options like MLB, NFL, NBA, NCAA sports, PBR, PRCA, Monster Truck Jam etc."
.. now how to explain that without stepping on some folks toes and opening a big can of worms... Tractor Pulling Europe happens in, compared to the US, VERY densely populated and quite wealthy areas. It is a rather small area of Europe and you have some poorer and some rich folks and we have the bigger "middle class" - but at the end of the day, the price at the gate, a hamburger, and beer are the same price for you or us. Entertainment options - no difference. I would actually say, given that our "tractor-pulling area" is a lot more urban than yours, it's actually "worse" for us. There are no pulls further than 40 mls away from really big cities. Our advantage: You're doing the sport for a lot longer than we do, which gives us the advantage to look at what you do from a little bit of a distance and at times prevents us from doing the same mistakes. Another advantage we have: People will actually STAND and watch a show for 6 hours - they don't need seats and don't expect to be entertained to the max and go home after 2 hours, no matter what. You could say their attention span is A LOT longer. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2023 01:10AM by Sascha. |
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Relevant NTPA announcement just today
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
NTPA Hot Shots announcement To your point OH1979er, NTPA posted a new sponsor deal on their website- A company called Hot Shots, with Brand Manager Josh Steinmetz (isn't he a former NTPA employee?) announced a deal with a small pulling series within the GN series with differing # of hooks per division. Any sponsorship is better than no sponsorship, and if a company chooses to spend their advertising $ on pulling, more power to them. "The new accord establishes a six-event bonus series and point fund titled the Hot Shot's Secret Challenge that will provide a total payment in excess of $30,000. The Challenge is open to Grand National competitors in all 13 premier-level divisions and will reward the top three point-earners in each division" I'm not criticizing Hot Shots or NTPA and hope for many more such sponsor announcements; I'm just piggybacking on OH1979er's point about numbers of classes. The sponsorship is $30,000, divided by 13 GN classes, which averages out to $2307.69 per class, which is further divided by the top 3 per class. Again, if I was a puller I'd rather get this money than no money, it's just $30,000 divided by 13 classes dilutes the pot compared to 5, 6, or 8 classes. Some people feel there are too many GN classes (and some don't), but nobody wants to cull the herd and eliminate some. After all, those membership dues come in handy, even if some classes on a state or regional level are basically dead, replaced by the new flavor of the month class. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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IH 6788
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Would if be possible to compare the average ticket price increase and average sponsor/advertiser dollar spent increase over this time period? That would be a more direct impact on purse payout. Regardless of the money spent on the build and operating cost of the pulling vehicle itself. My guess would be ticket price and sponsorship dollars have gone up a good amount since 1978 but that money has not flowed threw to the pullers themselves, but i am curious if anyone has any hard numbers on this. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
1988 BG 4 sessions of pulling adult 3 day pass was $30 for all sessions. Camping and 2 ( all sessions) tickets was $80. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
And the total purse payout was $130,000 for the event! |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Face in crowd
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Using numbers from 1988, that $30 all session pass would cost $75 today. That $130,000 purse from 1988 would be $330,000 today. Wow! |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
The 1983 Indy Super Pull was $9 a session and had $117,000 purse for 12 classes over 5 sessions. That averages to 9750 a class. Todays advertised purses may be more due to the fact there are 13 GN classes. I’ll share the photo with Dick so he can post flyer for 1983. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Posts: 25 |
It says on the Tomah poster it was $8. 2023 is $25. That's not exactly 4x appreciation as posted above for the purses. I have one sponsor, and it isn't even for cash it is for supplies. I suppose we have been too focused on quality to worry about sponsors coming along for the ride. Sponsors pulled out with Phillip Morris so blame their lawyers. That was the pin holding the cart to the horse here. Recession is the other thing. How people vote matters. You can't be a single-issue voter anymore. You have a country of single-issue voters and that is a problem. That has led to pro-importing, fewer refineries, and the attack on non-renewable agendas. Not so much the parts. Parts cost more due to raw materials. But the shipping is more, the expedited is more. The porta john rental, the food vendors. I know promoters that are getting into food vending so they can make the bills at their pulls. The best setups are events that own the track, have a huge volunteer staff, and have a tax-exempt status like Fire/EMS. We are seeing $20 for a pull without a blown engine in the lineup. I never thought I would see that. I have read countless articles about micro-advertising with influencers over major brands. If the profits are tight for businesses several things will happen layoffs, pay cuts, and reduction of marketing and that directly affect sponsorship. The 1% of the 1% are the sponsors here so if you are a business you are just hoping and praying the people you still have don't get burned out, and continue to work their stations, happy, and enjoying life. And hopefully, weather the elected administrations until you get ones that are pro-business.
I told Brent Payne at the NFMS, I was hoping that the No Bull Shootout was going to take off back at GALOT MS Park in 2020. Stinking COVID. I really thought that would have been good for the sport. I have several pullers, that are of the mindset, "give the money to the top three, and if I don't win we tool up and show up and try again the next time." The average to back of the pullers would fall away for sure. We hear contingency this, contingency that is thrown around a lot around the east coast. But if you are not getting pullers, what was the point of it anyway. So I do see a future for Shootouts. The year-end shootouts I film are wildly popular. It isn't for points but the pullers walk away with $1000/$2000 compared to $600/$800 bucks. And this is for potential sponsors. Create QR codes, that redirect to website pages that are custom-tailored to your pulling fans. Then you know where the traffic came from at events and can look at where your customers ended up. And you can compare that to previous years. If you say you need eyes on your brand, a pulling event brings eyes. Can your brand land? Can it sell? If your marketing department can't answer that, you need to clean house ASAP. Data is the key to sponsorship and how many eyes your product is front of. I can honestly say, I use a ton of products that sponsor pulls, if you have a product that will benefit the masses, I promise there are a lot of guys like me that would switch to your brand. Boy oh boy, I was on the ION action camera kick when it sponsored PPL. It would have to be in the high dozen dozens of those cameras I bought and resold. I have three just sitting as relics on my desk. I know this isn't a wonderful answer to "Why are the skies blue?" but this is a really complicated issue. At the core of it, it is basic economics. Sadly, not many people are good at economics especially people in charge, and that speaks more nationally of our leadership and less of pulling leadership. Pulling is simple, you have a tractor pull a sled and people watch it. The concept is so simple. I can sell that all day long. I referred a lady that works for Facebook the other day to come out to an Outlaw event in Texas. She said she would because she really liked my videos. She said she could see her and her family enjoying an event like a family I showed in one of my videos. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 12/26/2019 Posts: 43 |
Not so sure I agree with the "give it all to the top three".
4th - 10th worked hard to be there also. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,144 |
All true
One thing that we as Pullers need to learn though is: "Sponsorship is not about the sticker on your tractor generating sales for your sponsor." I have worked for over a decade in a pulling team that is running as a business. 3 Mods and an event. There is sponsorship money coming in. A good friend of mine built his first v12 mod when he was in his mid-20s and then kept that operation up and running for 20 years until he had one badass twin hemi light mod - paid with sponsorship money. What do both of them have in common? They offer VIP treatment at the events to companies!!! Sponsoring them means: You as a sponsor can bring your sales guys & customers to the events and they'll have a "special day behind the scenes with the team". Gazebo at the truck where there is always food and drinks, they can sit down and watch the "crew" work, get to talk with the driver, get signed posters, etc. The sales guys get their (potential) customers in a relaxed atmosphere (best with a few beers), where they feel "special" and that really burns the brand into their brains. That's where the logo on the tractor, the truck, the gazebo, and the f... paper plate, napkins and cups come into play. Dito for promoters: VIP area for your sponsors. Ours is filled with: Employees of the sponsoring companies (they bitch a lot less about their boss putting money into a sport if they get to play "VIP" once a year). Sales guys and (potential) customers (same story as above+ banners at the track). In the end, it is then a (pretty high) bill for "catering" that's a simple tax write-off for a company and money into the puller's pocket. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2023 12:15PM by Sascha. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Truth
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You think that pulling is more expensive now because of RAW MATERIALS AND SHIPPING? The cost of these machines is knowledge, skill, and labor; otherwise the tractor would only cost its weight in steel. The insane cost/purse imbalance is due entirely to the commercially oblivious promoters and rulemakers, and the millionaires lining up to spend whatever it takes to compete for a $0 return on investment. It has nothing to do with who wins a national election. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 04/08/2020 Posts: 7 |
I really want that 95 poster from Tomah! Bad Badger was the coolest truck. Sorry off topic. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I believe this about most all pullers,whether a gt puller or a gn ps.
They all love the sport,it's thier high performance connection to a tractor of some kind,any kind. We all like to hook for prize money,but in the end ,will hook for nothing,and give our winnings back at a benefit for a fellow puller,we all do. Purse money will never go up until we break that trend,which is a very fine line because there's not much left over after expenses to pass on..except for a few extremely big events. Due to the constant depletion of people in the country that seem interested to draw the dollar from,itdoesnt look good long term for larger purses. Most know before leaving the shop theier going to lose money,but it's the love of the sport that keeps them going. That's not going to change,it cant,it's reality..... |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Pull Fan
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Patches, I don't always agree with your commentary, however you are spot on brother! Thumbs up! |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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Been around
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It seems that everyone is looking for someone to blame for the purses continuing to go down. It's definitely something to take notice of. Right now we're finding that we distrust most who are in charge. Power and influence usually gets abused and the masses bear the pain that results.
Why are we in this position? NTPA has promoters that want to book classes that have poor participation. Promoters can't sell a value added class to fans when said class has 5 tractors. Purses never go up because the promoters can't make money. Do the pullers get blamed for not being able to create more vehicles? Why can't NTPA be blamed for selling classes with no vehicles? Can NTPA be blamed for creating classes that doesn't put on a show for the fans? Who is going to be the adult in the room and make an unpopular decision that benefits the sport and ALL competitors? Decades of bad decisions has left us with more than a dozen classes that are hard to define, let alone promote. Pick 5 classes and promote them everywhere. Take the rest down to a lower level or completely mothball them. We have to let go of what was exciting 30 years ago and show the fans the best entertainment their money can bring them now. |
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Re: The purse numbers from 1978 to 2023
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commonsense
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Common sense used to be common, - now very much gone with the old school thought processes of popular practices no longer in practice. Selfish greedy people ruin the best laid efforts that are supposed to be in place for the good of all. Not happening. |
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