Pump questions/suggestions

Pump questions/suggestions January 23, 2012 01:46PM

Anonymous User

Ive been looking at a few pumps lately but am new to diesels. Any idea how big a 500cc Columbus pump is and what it's capable of I'm thinking at a max I would need a 650cc capability. I'm going to be running a 300rpm class with a 360 inch limit with maybe an hx50 so would a 500cc pump be a good place to start and then make it bigger or would getting a bigger pump and toning it down be the better way to go. Also is self contained better or worse than one that runs on the stock oil system or is there much difference? Thanks in advance

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2012 05:55AM by DavidH.

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	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 24, 2012 12:00PM
advisor	It would be cheaper in the long run to get a 700-800 cc p pump. Self contained is better because you wont have dirt and contaminants from engine oil going through your pump. Reply Quote

Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 24, 2012 12:26PM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,152

It doesn't take rocket science for your level.
At 360 cui with 3000 rpm you should be pretty ok with an HX 50, 550 cc of fuel from a 14mm pump (Bosch P or modified A will do it), injected at 22°-23° ....if you are allowed to run intercooler - that's where you're low end torque is and where you should put your thoughts into.
These two guys in this Pull Off run 358 cui at 3200 rpm, 14mm Bosch A done by Lindemann Dieseltechnik at 550 cc, HX 50 with 32 exhaust housing, air to air intercooler, 22° of timing..... the engine of the first tractor has 12000 hours on and except for a new headgasket, no work done to it....
A 14mm P will be cheaper than those As shown here (but don't fit on the original drive of the 358 IH engine). I think LIndemann sells those 14 A pumps with RSV governor for less than 4000 € - a P for like half the pice.

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2012 12:37PM by Sascha.

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Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 24, 2012 03:05PM

Anonymous User

Sasha, yes we can run inter coolers I guess my question should have been a little more detailed I think the pumps I've found are 500cc 11mm pumps i think, both a series and 1 that's 13 mm the 11 mm are set for 3000rpm already so which is what I'm going to run, so my question is on a budget operation would an 11mm 500cc pump be a good place to start and spend more elsewhere? Or should I get the bigger pump and pass on something else for the time being. I appreciate the opinions thanks

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Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 24, 2012 11:44PM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,152

What you are looking for is quick delivery time. That is partly related to the plunger size, but also to the camshaft and stroke...
So you should define "which pump get's me 550 cc in the least degreed of crankshaft rotation", because that is what you want.
Maybe you can get that data for the pumps you are looking at and base your decision on that.
Also watch out to not spend money twice. If you need to get the housing machined to fit 13 or 14mm in - that's when the costs come into play quickly.

For what you could see in the video, I would not touch the engine / head (maybe install a N/A cam) before I don't have the pump right (13 - 14mm with a good quick camshaft - if you want to run an HX 60 all the way to the end without stalling, you need 16mm or a pretty good cam in a 13mm and serious head work done), proper nozzles and lines and an intercooler that gives you 80°F intake temperature (no need for water).
That should get a healthy HX 50 to spin all the way through the rpm band if you get your exhaust temperature set to 2000F with the amount of fuel you put in and serious low end torque... and probably already cause a bunch of trouble in the driveline to be fixed first.

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2012 11:50PM by Sascha.

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	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 12:39AM
Did I read that right?	Sascha, did you say 2000F on the exhaust temps? on stock pistons? On a side note sascha.....what would you reccommend for timing on a 640cui super farm with intercooler with a 14mm 8600 p-pump? Just curious what you guys are doing over there? No rpm restrictions Reply Quote

Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 02:15AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,152

Hi!

I just called Jörg Zeranski (the guy running the little "Red Fuchs"), to make sure I am not telling bogus.
He again told me he's running 1100 to 1150 °C in exhaust. That is 2012 to 2100 °F exhaust. At the finals he had 2180° F, after he turned fuel down by 30 cc and blew the charger 2/3rds down the track.
He just again said he is running stock pistons, stock head gasket (for the DT402 though), stock compression,.... This is a DT 358 IH engine, which you I think call "german diesel" over there. 12000 hours on it and not touched yet.

I have no idea what to tell you about the Super Farm.
In general: Injection timing is related to the speed of your pump, volume of your combustion chamber, pressure inside it and the rpm range you want to run. Our hot farm guys here last season experimented with timing quite a bit. Figured that at e.g. 17° it's hard to stall the engine, it shoots out 2 feet high flames out of the exhaust off the line - but it won't like to make revs. For the 3200 rpm the under 360 cui engines run, they all ended up around 24 to 20° of timing. Guys with slightly too fast gears retarded a bit, to move the low end torque to a lower rpm, while other's that needed the rpm (smaller diameter tires) advanced it a little.

So - I guess for a Super Farm it really boils down to what rpm you go down the track. If you want to go fast - advance. If you want it to "bite" retard it. Probably the kind of sled you run has a big influence there, too.

This here was a run at a (bad) brush pull with less than 20° advance. DT 402 with 2700 rpm limit and 14mm Pump:
[youtu.be]

Same tractor - a bit more advanced timing, still below 20° - not really wanting to make speed. The other "Black" IH was on 22° - same engine set up as the red one.... The only one with "early" timing (and wired way of keeping RPMs under control with a RQV govenor) is the Ford 8100...and the other little 1246 had his very first run. 10mm A Pump on DT 358.

[www.youtube.com]

This one shows Jörg embarrassing some poor Pro Stocks:
[youtu.be]

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2012 02:34AM by Sascha.

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	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 04:10AM
Anonymous User	sascha when you talk about that quick cam do you mean (injection faster or longer to fill the plunger) and also I was wondering if you could enlighten m about double power injector for a tractor how to open rpm cc should be dual power supply so simple injection can be drilled .089 injector body thank you for the info if you have the answer Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 04:40AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	I actually don't quite get what you mean in the second part? Punctuation might help? By quick cam I mean a "faster" stroke... I have no idea about injectors - I would suggest you ask Andreas at info@Dieseltechnik-Lindemann.de Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 05:29AM
Anonymous User	sorry I do not speak English well i use a translator who is not better than I thought I lollll. As I understand the camshaft is working for the plunger goes up faster. i have a 13 mm pump p is the original big camshaft replace camshaft by small (small lobe) not working to inject more quickly. in terms of injector I will write their thank you again sorry for the translation Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 05:51AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	what's your native language? Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 06:09AM
Anonymous User	ma langue maternelle est le francais I speak a little but the English. with a translation by google's m using. lolll for several years I have seen forums and ads (for sale, wanted) I know a lot the french looks the site, you also speak french Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 08:16AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	un petit peux.... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 05:44AM

Anonymous User

I would say you right a three speed may be in the future but hopefully far enough so that I can at least make a few runs and see what the tractor will be capable of. Also have another thought you may be able to help with I'm building this motor to run dry and have to bore the block for bigger sleeves if I leave the sleeve out of the block a little can that take the place of rings? Or would it be better to make the sleeve flush and o-ring the head?

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	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 05:58AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	I personally would go for the o-ring just because I know that it works.... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestion one more question January 25, 2012 07:21AM
Anonymous User	Is getting a pump that's from or been on an IH motor a big deal to make it work on a Deere. Is this possible or not? Or even worth while Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestion one more question January 25, 2012 08:18AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	Deere turns the other way round, so you need a different cam.... for a stock pump it's not worth the effort. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 08:23AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	Just got corrected.. it's a 27 exhaust housing ..... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: Pump questions/suggestions January 25, 2012 02:39AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152	I should add, they all run with a 68mm by 20mm restrictor in front of the turbo... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

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