04:54:44am, Friday, May 17, 2024
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Nytpa
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Confused spectator
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Just curious what everybodys census is on the super stock diesel/ alcohol split? From what I've seen it looks like the diesels have out pulled the alkys in most events, just the opposite for the reason of the spilt? Are the pullers liking it? Have they gained tractors or lost tractors by doing this? Intelligent responses to these questions would be preferred!! |
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Re: Nytpa
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Having moved from a location I most often went to NYTPA pulls to where now in this season I will only get to see the NYTPA once; I follow the results placed on their web site. It is apparent that every time they split (which must be based on number of tractors?) there are alky tractors that pull less distance but get more points than diesels that pull further. This intrigued me so I started keeping score of what they have in their current split scoring versus if they scored all pulls the old way. The results are interesting. The top tractor comes out same points under both scoring. However the second place tractor,Lil Less Patience, would be 16 points closer to top under the old scoring. The current 3rd place tractor is the highest Alky (Forced Decision) but under the old scoring the 4th place tractor, Lil More Patience, would be tied with him for 3rd. Down the list 6th is an alky and 7th a diesel; but they would be the other way around with diesel in 6th and the alky 7th under the old scoring. Same switch in places for alky and diesel in 8th and 9th. So in point totals together as best I can add it up- every Alky tractor has more points in the split scoring and most diesels have less. If that is the desired result I would guess the majority should be happy. |
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Re: Nytpa
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truth tester
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NYTPA said they where not going to adjust the sled from alcohol to diesel tractors. If they have NOT then the diesel should hook against the alcohol like ESP does. If they are adjusting the sled so the Alky tractor will not pull as far as the diesel [so there old diesel technology won't look bad] then they are not being truthful. |
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Re: Nytpa
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The way I understand it is they pull as a mixed class the same sled settings. Normal First place and second place points are 50 and 48; so first place Alky and first place diesel split and each get 49 points. Then second place alky and second place diesel split the regular 46 for 3rd and 44 4th and those 2 get 45 points each. The thing I noticed is that the second place Alky may have pulled less than distance (for example say 240 ft.) and gotten 45 points than the 3rd place diesel who pulls 275 ft but splits what would have been the old 5th and 6th points with the third place alky gaining them both 41 points. This has consistently happened all season because there are less Alky tractors pulling and your distance is not measured by the entire field only your Alky or Diesel competition. However the points are awarded by your placing and this season the 4th/ 5th/ 6th Alky tractors have had very poor pulls by distance but are splitting higher points than they would have been granted if it were just done with the old straight placing and points. Check out the results at NYTPA web site and you can see how it works. |
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Re: Nytpa
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Spectator
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Lowville they reset the sled for diesels bc test puller went farther then the alkys |
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Re: Nytpa
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Mr Off
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The funny thing about all of this is most of the people talking about it only have heard bits and pieces. I was told last night that one of the directors at the Norwich fair was going to express her views of the split in a letter to the club. I would bet she wasn't at any of their meetings but then again options are like %£¥holes. Everybody has one. So why would you want that kinda input. Even if it's not liked by her she only has one vote on the board. I think nytpa put on a successful event at Norwich and that fair is lucky to have them their. |
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Re: Nytpa
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diesel puller?
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You must be one of the 8 diesel pullers in NYTPA, no one else want this, does the fan benefit,,, no, does the promoter like it,,,no, do the alcohol pullers like it,,,no, just the diesel pullers, and the only reason they like it is because they are afraid of looking bad against the alcohol tractors. And if they are NOT resetting the sled between the 2 then what was the point???? |
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Re: Nytpa
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Watcher
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The truth is it must have taken more than 8 votes to get it to pass. The alkys should either shut up and go with the flow or I'm sure they would like the other options. One they take off more weight or like lance said for the alkys to grow a set and have their own class. Some of the diesels have chosen not to come out because they aren't going to pull with the alkys. What's that going to do for the promoter. Also as far as the split why would the promoter or fans care they are still getting to see the whole class just in different order. Let's face it until the alkys can get their tractor running every week they should not be making too much noise. If it weren't for the die hard diesels the number would be a lot lower. Don't get me wrong their is a few good alkys. The club better take care of who's taking care of them. |
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Re: Nytpa
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what
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OK,which is it, the alcohol ss need to lose weight because they beat the diesel ss and that's why the diesle are staying home. ( halfNYTPA ss always stay home) or the alcohol ss need to run better. Try to chose just one side of the argument |
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Re: Nytpa
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Spectator
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Here's a fact, regardless of fuel type, you have to stay up with technology to stay competitive!! The top running alkys in ny state are built by some of the best in the business. How many Diesels in nytpa can say that? Diesels can run with them and a good example is chain reaction. John rolled his sleeves up over the winter and found power. I'm not sure there's a diesel in nytpa that can run with him?? Do I think there should be a second class, yes. But not by fuel type, maybe the club should look at classic supers and super stocks?? |
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Re: Nytpa
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I am still somewhat confused. I originally thought the reason for the split was to help the diesels, but when you look at the points standings when they split (which is not every pull- the one I saw this year they did not split points) the diesels lose points to Alky tractors that pull less distance. 2 or 3 of the Alky tractors seldom break more than 200 ft and they get more points than diesels that pull 200 to 250 ft. Then on the web site the cumulative points are listed on one list. I assume at the end of the year the points fund will be paid by the one list of tractors? So I could see a diesel tractor staying home when he knows a very poor alky tractor may get more points than he does. So it appears like any favor is going to the alky tractors as it now is set up. I know that right now the top 2 tractors in points are diesels and by my calculations the second place tractor has 16 points less than he would have under the old straight scoring. If that were to hold up and the 2 tractors got to within a 16 point lead- the diesel winner would be 1 tractor in the current split points and the other tractor if they had not made this change. But there is lots of season left so.... And maybe I should not even bring this up, but does any body know if the purse money for placement is done the same as the points? If the 5th place Alky who pulls 32 ft. goes home with a bigger check than the 6th place diesel who pulled 250 ft.; I understand the diesel guy not wanting to pull with the alkys. But this is not too much alky power it is too little. And I saw Chain Reaction when he came to pull with the ESP and the tractor is awesome- won the class one night in Alexander over every alky and diesel that showed! |
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Re: Nytpa
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still
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No offense to chain reaction but if you look at the results where he has gone to a GN pull he is 30 ft off the pace. The NYTPA diesels are the ones that need to update not the alcohol |
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Re: Nytpa
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still lost
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If some diesel pullers are staying home even after they got there way then how did this help the club at all, no wonder the promoter is mad. |
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Re: Nytpa
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You are correct-- the only NY diesel that can run well at the Grand National level is John Raymond's Smoke N' Mirrors which is also impressive. Chain Reaction is next best- and at state level both those can compete with any NY Alky in the ESP or NYTPA Heavy Super Stock class. However in the Heavy class no NY alcohol can compete Grand National Unlimited level due to both ESP and NYTPA cube limits. Jason Hootman's Commander is doing well at the Light Super Level on the GN circuit and there are about 3 or 4 others alky tractors that could compete in the Light Super Stock GN. |
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Re: Nytpa
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Truth
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There's alcohols staying home or pulling with other clubs! So what's the end results?? |
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Re: Nytpa
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B.S.
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Well after all that has been going on in the club it's pretty obvious who are true supporters of the club. |
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Re: Nytpa
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NY Puller
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I really feel that is NYTPA wanted to truly help the SS class out they should limit the number of hooks for the season. You state cost and breakage as being two major factors limiting the class. If they limited the number of hooks for the class it would help with both of these as well as help with the large discrepancy of hooks between different classes. I believe this may have already been suggested by PPL... |
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Re: Nytpa
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Anonymous User
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I am not on here much as I was so if you have questions I may not get right back to them.
Diesel and Alkie combo class This is a trial to do a couple of major things. The first item was to help stop the handicapping. I started pulling a alkie in 2000 and for years before that there was a constant debate over what to do to try to maintain a more level playing field. First it was cubic inch, then weight, then weight again, then talk of drawbar, restrictor plates then weight again. every year over and over again what to do. NYTPA has given weight back to the Alkie guys from were they were before. There was a larger difference. Second Item was to stop the dying out of the diesel SS tractors. Every year there are Diesel pullers that would stay home or seriously think about it because the can not afford to keep up. As from being on both sides of the fence and still am, let me tell you something. Alkie is a much cheaper HP to build then Diesel. You also carry a better insurance that you will not lose as much $$ in a major brake down. This will cause some Diesel pullers will change to Alkie, because they believe that would be the only way to keep up at a lower cost. Some just could not afford to change if they wanted to. Some are just scared because they have always done there own work and just do not believe they can learn. Now all pullers have to change just to try to keep from falling farther behind no matter what fuel. But from being there, Alkie is a bit easier to gain HP and a ton easier to gain over Diesel. That being said, a Diesel person has this is running thru their mind as why bother because without spending way more then they can afford, they are going to move up at a much slower rate then a alkie will and pulling against them makes the Diesel person much LESS willing to grow, as they feel it is a lost cause. I am cap locking this next section not to yell just to stand out more. DO YOU KNOW WHY MOST STATE PULLERS ARE STATE PULLER? BECAUSE OF TIME AND MONEY. THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE OR THE OTHER OR BOTH. SO AS FOR ALL YOU OUT THERE SAYING STEP UP. IT JUST CANT BE DONE BY THE MAJORITY. SO YOUR NEXT STATEMENT TO THEM IS STAY HOME. Well how is that going to look at a event if they did???? I will tell you 1 to 3 tractor class... that is a hell of a show. This is the main two reasons for trying this combo class. As for the points I spent many hours trying to find the best way to handle this and the way that is being done right now is not mine, it was from another person that has been involved with pulling for years and not even from the SS class. The points are done this way to try not to devalue the points pay out at the end of the year to the other Classes such a TWD, Mod, and SF class. Some puller may have the chance to have more points at the end of the year But DO NOT qualify to get a points check because NYTPA has a 2/3 rule. if you do not make 2/3 of the events you do not qualify. Back 2 years ago before we tried this the points value/dollar was figured out and doing it this way was almost even, so no other class lost any money at the end of the year. Now as for Promoters and fans in the stands what are they seeing different, really? diesel or alkie going to run all first or all last. This can happen with just pulling the numbers for the line up and it has. So why should the promoter be mad?? there is no more cost to them, still getting the tractor numbers... What tractors have NYTPA really lost over this? one that I know of and truly why? ask him and let us all know. As for fans the are really fans the check the NYTPA website it is a bit more confusing at this time. As for the person that said we should do what Lance said and grow a set and split the class and offer both.. Ok lets talk about the promoter being mad when you want to add the expense on?? double the cost.. Right now when we run the combo class, the SS class pullers are absorbing it by moving it around some. Now if it was a full split and the promoter wanted to take Just the alkies or Diesel SS and they are figuring they will get 6, 7 or 8 and the way the schedule is so tight only 2 or 3 may show, and who would be mad then? Also I am willing to bet that some one is going to stay home and it could be any of us.. Right now the Combo Class is 1 class to the fans and with same cost to the promoters with 2 outcomes. As for running the classes on a combo class they are suppose to alternate who starts first. there is not suppose to be any weight change in the sled at this time unless there may be a safety issue. this is like if some of the Higher HP TRACTORS show up and the previous class has already been out to 320 or more. the head tec guy should make a call and also relay it if he or she is out on the track in a timely manner with the other pullers that this might might happen. I hope this clears some stuff and I do not want to make it more confusing. This is a work in progress and nothing is perfect, but I don't think anyone at the last annual meeting or this season has talked about handicapping any SS pullers. I believe we have not lost any pullers of NYTPA that are willing to support this trial to make it better for all in the end. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2015 10:46PM by Mark Hayes. |
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Re: Nytpa
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Fan
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Don't know alot about what's going on with NYTPA SS class but I've had a chance to watch the Superfarm class and it was AWSOME!!!!! |
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Re: Nytpa
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agree
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agree 100% wonder when the powers to be will decide to pay them the same money as the SS class that everyone seems to be not so satisfied with from the looks of things on here. |
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Re: Nytpa
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supers
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Agree also on Superfarms, I used to not care too much for the class but it has come a long way and tractors run pretty consistent and hard. Seems like Supers light or heavy especially the Alky tractors are very inconsistent. The power spread between the tractors in SS varies, doesn't matter Alky or Diesel, just depends on who is actually running well that day. Some are never going to be consistent top runners but they are there every week having a good time and entertaining the fans. |
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Re: Nytpa
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after reading
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After reading the posts after Mark Hayes's I have come to a conclusion in my own mind. And my conclusion is that you people are idiots. EXCEPT for SPECTATOR! |
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Re: Nytpa
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OL; PULLER
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What makes you think the SF class is not getting the same pay??
the SF class has it's own issues and not in this topic |
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Re: Nytpa
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The current HSS Class is like= Why don't we just let SF class run alky then too, should'nt PO any (all) Diesel guys would it? |
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Re: Nytpa
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YA! right on with not changing all rules and checking anything, lol! but that's what happened to super class soon as alky's ran with them,way more money and time than it's worth really, went into most ALL diesels to stay in there class and compete at all. kindaa sad, this has all happend, wish THAT tractors EVER ran on alky in the day!. |
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Re: Nytpa
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Interesting
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That would be interesting. I wonder if it would be competitive? there is some guy out west that pulls a moline I think on propane ? |
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Re: Nytpa
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Spectator
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Is it possible the sf class is successful because the club doesn't interfere with there rules? Over the years the sf has had many different dominate tractors without touching the rules, maybe there's something to learn from them? |
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Re: Nytpa
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For years this has been a major topic of discussion. At all levels across the country. Even at the national level years ago.
I give NYTPA a lot of credit because they grew a pair and did something. They did not spend another couple years bickering back and forth. Its clear there are not enough tractors at each event to have a full split. At some pulls there would not be enough tractors for a good show. Also, from a fan's view I like to be able to compare the two different types of tractors. If the sled is not changed and they run one after the other I can do a good comparison. I like this. You get to see how the smokers did against the smokers. Alcohol did against the alcohol and also compare smokers against alcohol. The guy mentioned above, this is work in progress. There probably is no perfect answer, but at least they did something. And from my view from the stands I like it. I am not sure why any promoter would not like it. Fans seem to like it ( this ones that even notice there is a split ) and it seems like the number of tractors is growing so the pullers seem to like it or at least be ok with it. The one I noticed missing is Lightening but I heard he broke something and will be back soon. |
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