Roll cage question October 18, 2015 06:11AM
Years ago (just after the Randy Rose accident) there were some pullers that were complaining about having to install roll bars on their pullers. I would assume that every puller is on board with cages now. Are there some out there that would prefer NOT having a cage?
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 18, 2015 08:40AM
seemed like guys ran the front lighter and lighter when cages went on.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 18, 2015 10:17AM
I, for one was against the cage, when they first came out. I thought they made the tractor look ugly. Now when I see a tractor that does not have a cage on, it looks a little bare, and out of place! Thanks!
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 18, 2015 03:06PM
Quote
ANOTHER PULLER!
I, for one was against the cage, when they first came out. I thought they made the tractor look ugly. Now when I see a tractor that does not have a cage on, it looks a little bare, and out of place! Thanks!

I also was against the cage when they first came out, but I built one and installed it on my tractor anyway according to the sfi specs which was and still is 47.2. What I have a problem with now is that certain orgs. allow more weight on the cages and sfi does NOT!
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 19, 2015 02:29PM
SFI has nothing to do with setting weights for any class of tractor pulling.
When the cage was mandated by NTPA, the weight of the LSS class went up. Not sure if it went up full weight of cage plus mounting structure or not.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 19, 2015 09:22PM
The cages are spec'd to a maximum weight. That's where the 2 bar and the 3 bar came from. . If you allow tractors to run over the SFI limit, you could end up in a pickle.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 20, 2015 02:11PM
That is true, but there is an allowable maximum on the 2 hoop cage, and so far, no LSS class weight is right at that weight.
So, yes I am sure SFI has no inut on class weights!
If , in the future, the LSS class weight exceeds the weight rating for the 2 hoop cage, they will have to use a 3 hoop cage. SFI will not care.
Sanctioning bodies set the weight limits of a class, not SFI.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 20, 2015 03:57PM
What's the allowable maximum weight on both the 2 bar and the 3 bar? I have the specs from sfi on the 2 bar and it says 6000 lbs.. And I also know that sfi has no in put on class weights and have known that for 17 years.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 22, 2015 04:28PM
10%
The 6000 lb. cage is ok up to 6600#
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 20, 2015 08:31PM
You are right, SFI does not set the weight limits for the classes. The statement was that some organizations were running classes over the roll cage weight limits set by SFI. The post never said anything about SFI setting class weights. You said that.

You are confusing what the cages are limited to and who sets the class weights. By default SFI does in fact set the maximum weight limit for any organization, and still be within the SFI certification. If the organization exceeds that limit and something happens.....they would be the ones who are held accountable, not SFI or the manufacturer.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 21, 2015 12:34PM
One thing I probably should have added is, I would not get on one without it now.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 23, 2015 12:14AM
What's the weight limit for a 3 bar cage? I would think there would be one. Also I always understood the 2 bar was 6000 ibs not 6600, what this 10% thing about?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 12:18AM by RED DELIGHT.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 23, 2015 03:21PM
The 3 hoop cage is for 7000 to 10,000 tractors.
The 10% is a secret, known only by tech officials that need to know, and a select few builders. (A joke! only a joke!)
The folks working on the cage project knew a few things about pullers, #1 being, they will complain. #2 being, they always want more weight.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 25, 2015 02:41PM
It will not state that on the spec.
You will need to call them to find out I am right.
(858)451-8868
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 25, 2015 02:50PM
Quote
Specificator
It will not state that on the spec.
You will need to call them to find out I am right.
(858)451-8868

What the heck good is the spec then?
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 28, 2015 08:41AM
This has been talked about on here before and I don't think anyone ever posted the official info:
[www.pulloff.com]

I can't remember if I read this on this site or if I had this conversation in person with an NTPA employee but I remember a couple of years ago there was discussion about raising the weight of the LSS class to 6500 lbs. (I think it was proposed by Larry Philips for a rule change) and there was discussion about the maximum weight allowed for the two bar cage. My memory might be wrong but I feel like I heard that SFI builds in a fair margin of error in the design and that the two-bar cages could be certified up to 6400 lbs. maximum.

Personally I'm with Clark, if you make a spec, write it clear and make no room for grey area. This is especially true when it comes to a safety spec.

I don't actually care what the spec is since I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do care that the spec is followed and that in the event of an accident some smug lawyer doesn't exploit the fact that we, as a motorsport weren't following our own safety guidelines.

If anyone ever does find out the official weight from SFI I'd love to know it.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 28, 2015 02:44PM
I happen to know that Larry Richwine knows.
And the feller at the SFI foundation.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 29, 2015 01:12AM
Why is everyone carrying on like it's a big secret IF someone knows them post it for everyone to see and know or I would say there is no SFI specs and anycage will do!
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 29, 2015 02:29AM
There is a spec, actually three specs: SFI 47.1--classes with a 10,000 pound limit; SFI 47.2--classes with a 6300 pound limit; SFI 47.3--classes with a 2100 pound limit. What is difficult about that? If the Foundation or NTPA wanted something different, I am sure the specs would have been formulated for that. The way I understand the process--in a nutshell-- (I personally researched the process because I wanted a spec for an item) is you design a product, i.e cage, blanket, bellhousing, guard, etc., write the criteria, then submit samples to the Foundation. The Foundation tests the item to destruction and then give the "yea" or "nay" to the design and allow their "label" to be affixed signifying the design met the parameters it was designed for according to their independent testing procedures. To my understanding, if a spec'd product fails in the field and was used in strict compliance with the intended application, the sanctioning organization and the manufacturer is held harmless. And by strict, I mean every bolt, nut, support, etc. is in compliance and used appropriately. So, for instance. to save weight, on your cage, you drill lightening holes where not approved and leave off a couple of attachment nuts and bolts, you accept all liability. This is all my personal interpretation of the process. JW
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 29, 2015 10:32AM
I would speculate that the 10% that was mentioned is a built in safety measure,not to be used,but rather to help assure quality .
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 29, 2015 11:09AM
Normally when a product is engineered and then specified the rule of thumb is that it will operate at double the rating. For instance at 6000 lift chain with out the safety factor will actually handle 120000. But that is in the normal world where OSHA and all the "smart guys" get involve.

IMO. The sanctioning bodies are really feeding us a line of BS. The following is taken directly from the SFI document for 47.2:

I. OBJECT
SFI Specification 47.2 is a design and construction quality assurance standard for a driver roll cage for use on tractors, less than 6,000 lbs., used in the sport of tractor pulling competition. This specification is concerned only with the protective characteristics of the driver area in the event of a crash, and not with the competition performance properties of the vehicle.
A representation of compliance with SFI Specification 47.2 is not an indication, nor an assurance that the roll cage will provide adequate driver protection in all situations of a vehicle crash or mishap. It is suggested, however, that roll cages that do not comply with these designs and construction quality assurance standards may not perform their intended function, nor might they provide adequate protection to a driver in a crash situation.
This specification is advisory only. There is no agreement between SFI nor any other party to be guided by it, and its use by any association, organization, manufacturer or individual is entirely voluntary. SFI will not accept any responsibility for consequences resulting from its application.
SFI shall not approve or disapprove any piece of equipment or item either officially, or unofficially, irrespective of its compliance with SFI Specification 47.2 or recommended practices.

The rest of the document is the actual dimensions and measurements that cages should be made to. The ONLY mention of a % is :

III. DESIGN AND FABRICATION STANDARDS
A. ROLL CAGE
1. Tubing Size and Material - List of tubing sizes and material in the Figures are shown in the associated tables.
2. The dimensional locations of the main structural hoops and secondary tubing shown in the Figures are to be used as a guide but must be met within 20% of dimensions specified on the Figures.

When the cages were first introduced, it happened in a relatively short period of time. There have been updates to this SFI document but I don't think there has been any real testing. I think they had an engineer come up with what was needed and they went forward. As stated above, SFI accepts no liability for failures. They are only providing recommendations. A sanctioning body could actually say a two bar cage is what is specified in a 10,000 pound class and SFI can't say anything about it. (If I am reading the document correctly.)

So there you have it. There is nothing in SFI cage documents the says there is a 10% weight variance built in. I won't post anymore from the document as SFI expressly states that the document is for Sanctioning Body or Builder use. (Besides, I had to spend $75 dollars on this, not gonna give it away for free).
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 29, 2015 10:58PM
I didn't put this correctly. I am aware what can happen. The BS is that the sanctioning bodies are feeding us a line about the 10%. If "Light" Super ends up a 6500 lb class the 2 bar cage is no good according to the SFI paper. LSS should not be more than 6000 lb. I don't care if Chief and Wilhite can't make weight. If they can't there is a heavy class for it. The sanctions bodies gave been beating the safety drum every time they raised the weight of LSS. If they would have just said no the first time needed 200 lb so they could run the "better" heavier tires or the "better" latest turbo set up then the cage wouldn't be an issue. The whole " I can't control my tractor cause of too much horse power" line would be invalid if they would have left the weight alone. It would have kept the class more competitive and there would have been even more variety. But we will never know. Eventually the LSS will be 7000 lb. They will need 3 bar cages and the light tractors will be the LSS class.
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 30, 2015 01:19PM
Just checked with Larry Richwine. (What a NOVEL concept).
I had asked this question while building my last 2wd, Hot Rod Lincoln.
I wanted to put a cage in it, and wanted a SFI "approveable" cage. Didn't really want a 3 hoop cage.
I had forgotten what the percentage over was, but I knew the 6200 lb. 2wd was under the #
Larry says the spec. Is fine for up to 10% over the printed spec.
Therefore, the SFI spec. 47.2 is fine for UP TO 6600 lbs.
To; engineer, for overhead lifting slings and attachments, the safety factor for the working load limit, is actually 4.
Please don't try this at home!
Reply Quote

Re: Roll cage question October 30, 2015 01:58PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
This has been talked about on here before and I don't think anyone ever posted the official info:
[www.pulloff.com]

I can't remember if I read this on this site or if I had this conversation in person with an NTPA employee but I remember a couple of years ago there was discussion about raising the weight of the LSS class to 6500 lbs. (I think it was proposed by Larry Philips for a rule change) and there was discussion about the maximum weight allowed for the two bar cage. My memory might be wrong but I feel like I heard that SFI builds in a fair margin of error in the design and that the two-bar cages could be certified up to 6400 lbs. maximum.

Personally I'm with Clark, if you make a spec, write it clear and make no room for grey area. This is especially true when it comes to a safety spec.

I don't actually care what the spec is since I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do care that the spec is followed and that in the event of an accident some smug lawyer doesn't exploit the fact that we, as a motorsport weren't following our own safety guidelines.

If anyone ever does find out the official weight from SFI I'd love to know it.

Thanks, Jake. You said a mouthful
Reply Quote

Newer Topic Older Topic

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,748, Posts: 229,892, Members: 3,334.
This forum: Topics: 37,087, Posts: 225,995.

Our newest member DANNY.WAINSCOTT@YAHOO.COM