A series pump versus P series pump

	A series pump versus P series pump May 01, 2010 05:04PM
Anonymous User	Can an A series pump REALLY perform as well as a P series pump? Does it perform differently in different engines such as cubic inch or manufacturer? Please give me your thoughts on this as our club has decided to make an A series pump limit class for this season and I now am using a P series pump. Thanks Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 01, 2010 11:16PM

Interstate Fan

Well, an A-Pump can perform. If you had the chance to see the Mod Turbo's (Lim Pro Stocks) from Maryland, PA and VA, those are tractors that have 540 C.I., a 4.1 turbo, but they run A-Pumps and they seem to really carry the mail. They've also gone out west and been very competetive.

The Pro Farm's that ran at Keystone Nationals also have A-Pumps. Both pretty good classes. Just some examples for you to look at regarding A-Pumps.

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 02, 2010 12:48PM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

Yes, they can perform - just cost like twice as much to do the same, wears out faster, takes a heck lot of rules and tech crew to police plunger size to stay in "affordable" ranges,...
A pump is one of the most stupid limits in pulling...
Spend half the money of a "hot" A on a P and your crowd will thank you!

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2010 12:51PM by Sascha.

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 02, 2010 12:57PM
Jeff Rogers	Now thats the smartest statement I've read on here in a very long time. Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 02, 2010 02:31PM
former pi puller	AhhhhhhMen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! clubs that make rules to take money out of the pullers pocket??? test the water where you are from, and keep the tractor home Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 03, 2010 01:53AM

who is stupid?

Just a question here, but will the inexpensive 13mm P pump perform as well as say a 14mm or even the 15's or 16's that are starting to appear? If so why would anyone even bother spending more money on the bigger better pump, oh thats right, they are just stupid an don't know anything. The people who have spent hours, months, years developing parts and tuning them on the DYNO and other expensive test equipment have no idea what they are doing? I just checked the prices on Columbus Diesels page as a reference. In fact I found no P-pumps priced at half the money as their current big A-pump.

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 03, 2010 04:37AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

Apples to Apples ...
Where I come from, an hot 14mm A is twice as much money as 13mm P prepared for pulling.

If you want to kick butt here, the recent choice is neither P or A here, but a newer model Bosch you can pull out of semis on the junk yards here.

Point is, if you want to limit the COSTS, don't limit on the pump. Take RPMs and Air away.

And now just take the initial question:
The guy has to remove his P pump, spend quite a lot of money on an A that will perform alike - and the final result is:
Money burnt, show not improved.....

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2010 04:57AM by Sascha.

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 03, 2010 05:15AM

who is stupid?

Lets compare apples to apples here. Sure a top of the line A pump is expensive, up in the $6000 range. But what does the top of the line p-pump cost? I am not interested in a 13mm 800 cc P-Pump. I want an edge, I want the one that is an a$$ kicker. What are folks like Zorns, Slamas, Kutz, Saleinben, and Skaar running? If our class ever switched pumps, the majority of the people in our class are not going to go get the "cheapest" p-pump. They are going to go get the one that is the best. If you are going to compare pumps, lets compare the best of each, not the worst of one and the best of another.

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 03, 2010 05:52AM
Anonymous User	i don't think it would be nessesary to have a pump capable of pushing 1300cc of fuel if you are running a hot farm class. The setup is completly different for each tractor. Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 03, 2010 09:11AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

Of course you are right when you say, a good A will outperform the standard P and a top of the line P is more expensive than a top of the line A. (Even though from the stuff I have seen in the works lately, I am not so sure about that anymore).

I am just comparing the performance of two pumps for the same price. An A with 14mm "Tractor Pulling Elements" goes for 5000 $ here. A 13mm P with "Tractor Pulling elements" is 2500 $, 14mm a bit more. The A needs regular service while the P will probably run for a loooong time in pulling.

So, if we are talking power for the buck, if you limit the engine on a different point (like e.g. the air it can breathe) a 13 or 14mm P can be more than sufficient and will be a cheaper solution than an A Pump = same bang for less money invested.
You can get pumps on the junkyards here, that are sitting on trucks which are a bit over 10 years old, that run with all the hot pumps and you can get them for scrap price, when lucky. Why ban them?
What about the Common Rail stuff, that gets cheaper by the day and can handle more and more power?
One hot farm puller here is seriously considering a free programmable Common Rail System build for race trucks, instead of a 14mm P, as it would only be 1000 $ more to buy, but probably better performance.

So my point is:
If you want to give the spectators the most power for the least investment of the pullers, an expensivly modified, 30 year old A Pump does not really do the job.

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2010 09:31AM by Sascha.

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 05, 2010 11:31PM
Interstate Fan	Well, come down to Interstate country and ask them if the Mod Torbo's (limited pro's) or the Pro Farms put on a good show with a lot of power. Across the board, you'll hear yes... As far as alot of money for A Pumps. I think you'd see that not everyone is dumping a ton of money into A Pumps. Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 06, 2010 07:16AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

I didn't doubt you can put on a good show with an A pump...
But they would probably put on the same show with like a 3 inch + some turbo inlet limit and 13mm P Pumps or not?

When I hear about elements placed in an angle, camshafts moved into different position, just to keep the housing look stock...
When you then consider a new "hot" 13mm P Element is less than 100 $ from the factory...

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 07, 2010 09:32AM

Curt Forrester

Well there is no doubt that a run of the mill 13mm p-pump will perform equally and or better than a top of the line a-line. But then again a run of the mill p pump will not smell a top of the line p-pump. So When you compare a top of the line p-pump to a top of the line a pump the a is a bargain. A top of the line p- can run around $7500, the best a line $5500.00. Now that is all fine and dandy the problem comes into play when you slip on that p-pump and your tractor makes 2000hp instead of 1500, so now we need a billet crank and a 4.4 turbo and some new gears $$$.

So limits are placed on tractors to try and keep the competition close and affordable. So yes if you could limit any class to a 13mm p-pump with a stock cam you could have a great performing tractor and you could do it cheap but thats not realistic for alot of us.

I am not sure why you Europeans are having a-line pump issues we have been running them here in the east coast of the US for over 20 years with very little problems, I am talking about 70-100 tractors with a-pumps in interstate and fpp combined. I would imagine the problem comes from putting the barrels and plungers in on an Smiling

angle and moving the camshafts would proably be the problem.

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 07, 2010 09:43AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

There is not a problem with the A pumps here. Very few are running them, because they are allowed to run Ps. There is some guys running As with 14mm because they could fit them on the engines better than a P and there was no need to build a different drive.
We run with following limits:
68mm air inlet limit (HX 50), 2700 rpm, free choice of pump, 7 litres at 7700 lbs and 9 liters at 9900 lbs.
Cheap 550 to 600 hp and extremely colorful. No bitching about limits and quick and easy tech inspection of the engines.

Others have choosen to set the pump as limit (A or Simms) - classes are all blue, don't perform much better, but cost a lot more.

If you don't have something in place besids the pump to limit the power, of course you can and will spend more money with a P limit.

When the first 15 + As are out this season, we should maybe talk again Winking

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2010 09:47AM by Sascha.

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 07, 2010 04:30PM
Curt Forrester	That class with the simms and a pump limit that is all blue sounds like a great class haha.... Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 09, 2010 11:53AM
americanpuller	2700rpm?? 550-600hp?? sounds like farm stock Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 10, 2010 03:31AM

Anonymous User

I just dont understand why an organization (for a suppose to be low dollar class)
would want to make an individual spend more money on something less reliable.
Most A pumps require alot more maintenance than P pumps and the longevity of
the A pump is far less than the P pump. Whether or not most guys would admit it
everybody has had trouble with an A pump no matter what color they run. Let the guy
run the pump he has on and just limit the turbo size and RPM , dont make him spend
more money on something thats not going to last for him. Why cant we just forget about
the idea that (whoever spends the most money should win) and just get back to the basis
of just pulling and having a good time so more people could afford to get involved with the
sport and keep it alive and growing. Thats what it was meant to be, (Fun) Wasn't It ?

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 10, 2010 05:19PM

Curt Forrester

Thanks for your two cents, I wish you would have enlightened us 20 years ago with your wisdom. I still don't know why this keeps being an issue the guys that are running them aren't crying about them just all the folks that don't even own one. So whats up do you guys sale p-pumps?I guess to make you guys happy we are going to need 75-100 pumps to get all of us idiots in here that don't know whats good for us some new pumps, Can we get 100 pumps for half a million dollars?

So what do you mean let them run with the pumps they have, does that mean if your tractor came with a p-pump you can run it and if your tractor only came with a rotary your stuck with that? That would be a great deal as long as your the guy with the p-pump.
The classes in here where designed by the pullers not the organisation, they where voted on by the pullers not the organisation and every new class that has been added since 1990 has choosen to run a pumps the last class being formed in 2003 with a clean slate with no tractors even being built they chose a-lines.

We get it, there are those that think running a-lines is foolish, thats fine don't run them if you don't want to. We happen to run them we don't have issues with them they have been a great limiter of horsepower for us they are dependable and affordable and anybody in here would rather limit the horsepower by restricting the fuel pump then going back to a smaller turbo.

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Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 10, 2010 08:47PM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

I think this topic started out with somebody who had to change from P to A....
Which made me think they are talking something in the "under 1000hp" range.
To make 1000 hp a P is always cheaper than an A.

If you want a limit at let's say + - 1500 hp and don't want to put anything else in place, an A pump limit of course sets the power lower than a P-Pump limit.

And in general who said "fix something that ain't broke" has ever been a good idea?

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2010 08:54PM by Sascha.

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump February 24, 2018 12:04PM
Guess things have changed	Guess you decided to restrict on both ends. Why the change of heart now? Sand box getting to big again? Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 10, 2010 04:35AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,145	correct - what else are we talking about here? Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2010 04:46AM by Sascha. Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 03:09AM
fordtractorpuller Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 256	Sorry I would rather have a P Got mine from Columbus last year every time I changed the oil it looked like the day I put it in. No need to send back and have it checked out. I just ordered 2 more Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 04:10AM
Puller A	The key point everybody seems to miss here is that it is a "LIMITED" class. You can either limit cubes,pump, turbo or a combination of them. The only one that is easily checked and identified is the pump. You can visually inspect it quickly without a hassle. Cubic inches and Turbo's are much harder to inspect. Sure does make a limited class easy to police. Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 04:33AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,145	Inspection time is another reason, why we didn't go for pump limit but a 20mm long, 68mm inner diameter air restrictor. Takes us just "hood off - test plug goes in or not" time. Our neighbours with the pump limits have all kinds of trouble going on with "cheater" elements .... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 04:59AM
americanpuller	Yeah we got a plug rule over here to. 2.4 restrictor plug 540ci A pump. tractors make around 900-1000HP. plugs rarely get checked so that leaves the pump rule bein the easiest to police as most anybody that knows anything about pumps can tell the difference. Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 05:47AM
just enough Registered: 04/10/2008 Posts: 56	I could be wrong, but it seems hard to believe you can get that much hp out of that setup. Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 07:04AM
puller 66	Yeah your wrong, it is possible Reply Quote

Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 08:24AM

Sascha

Moderator
Registered: 03/27/2008
Posts: 1,145

How long is your restricted area?
We did several dyno tests and figured about 550 hp with the 20mm set up we have. 20mm long (25,4mm = 1 inch).
I know you can make a lot more power with just a "plate".
Buddy of mine here in this town is running a 540 cui Perkins V8 with an HX 50, Intercooler and "give what you can" Minimec and that thing sure is "out of air" with that restrictor now, even though it's a pretty smooth device with a slight funnel shape on the input and output side and about 5 inches long in total and the required 20mm in the middle. I won't doubt it's possible to figure out a better restrictor design, but for now he's way ahead of the rest anyways.
Anyhow - if it's possible to get over 600 hp we will have to rework our safety rules (put a smaller restrictor in place).
Any info woul be appreciated!

Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]

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	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 08:30AM
americanpuller	restrictor plug only has to be 1/4 long & be no more than 2" from compressor wheel. there are also housing restrictions on the turbo. check out interstate pullers website 11,000 profarm class Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 09:04AM
Anonymous User	I believe you Interstate guys are makin 900 to 1000hp. I've been down to watch you run. Not to change the subject of the discussion but what turbo is the majority of the class runnin? I've been thinkin bout comin down to Ketstone but I need a different turbo. Just wonderin! Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump May 11, 2010 09:09AM
Sascha Moderator Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,145	ok.. that 1/4 inch explains it... I have read through your rules before. Thanks for the input! Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Reply Quote

	Re: A series pump versus P series pump February 24, 2018 01:24PM
HWKnight	So why is the Interstate Light Limited Turbo class now allowed to run either an A pump or a P pump? Just noticed that in the rules this year. Reply Quote