What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 09:46AM
I started a new thread instead of posting on the dyno thread since this covers cheaters and cheating in general not specifically related to cheating a dyno. So, What does possess one to cheat? What kind of a person does it take to feel like they need to cheat just to win, in many cases only a trophy or very little payout? In my mind, it is a person who feels entitled to win at any cost without regard to anyone else who are Playing by the rules. It is one who cannot stand to be defeated fair and square. Cheaters in my opinion are no different than one who robs from others, be it monetary or personal belongings. A cheater is nothing more than a thief and a liar at heart. So that being said why would anyone want to be put in that same class of people as thieves? I probably will never understand that and I am sure it will continue as self proclaimed cheater from another thread claimed they would continue to try and cheat. Fire away folks!

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 10:21AM
My opinion is --- the ones that cheat are self centered and lazy, they want a shortcut, don't want to put in the time and money to win legally, its been going on as long as i can remember, been doin this for 36yrs and cheating has been going on longer than that im sure.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 11:37AM
Cheaters never win it just looks like it .But what a low life and just think of money it would save



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2020 11:47AM by Lewis Conner.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 11:41AM
Great question. I know this may sound dumb (not my first time), but first we need to define cheating. Going against specific rules in the rule book is clearly cheating. Things like doctoring fuel or water, traction control or computer controlled engine or traction parameters, over cubic inches, drawbar, weight, etc... are all pretty clear forms of cheating. However, it's not always so straight forward though... looking for grey areas in the rule book is where it gets tricky. Especially when the rules are poorly written or poorly though-out. Often times the intent of the rules are clear but finding ways around them is pretty easy. That is where it can turn into a really sticky situation. Is it cheating? Well the unfortunate answer is: sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

So back to the question... I know some guys justify knowingly cheating by convincing themselves that everyone else at the top must be cheating so the only way they can win is to cheat. Some guys might cheat because they disagree with the rule so they just ignore it. I think there have been plenty of guys who have cheated because they sell a product, or maybe plan to sell a product and if they don't get caught it will be money in the bank if they find the winners circle often. I don't think it's a great business model because if their customers don't get similar results their business is unlikely to survive.

Personally I don't understand how you could feel good about yourself with a tainted result.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



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Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 02:10PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
Great question. I know this may sound dumb (not my first time), but first we need to define cheating. Going against specific rules in the rule book is clearly cheating. Things like doctoring fuel or water, traction control or computer controlled engine or traction parameters, over cubic inches, drawbar, weight, etc... are all pretty clear forms of cheating. However, it's not always so straight forward though... looking for grey areas in the rule book is where it gets tricky. Especially when the rules are poorly written or poorly though-out. Often times the intent of the rules are clear but finding ways around them is pretty easy. That is where it can turn into a really sticky situation. Is it cheating? Well the unfortunate answer is: sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

So back to the question... I know some guys justify knowingly cheating by convincing themselves that everyone else at the top must be cheating so the only way they can win is to cheat. Some guys might cheat because they disagree with the rule so they just ignore it. I think there have been plenty of guys who have cheated because they sell a product, or maybe plan to sell a product and if they don't get caught it will be money in the bank if they find the winners circle often. I don't think it's a great business model because if their customers don't get similar results their business is unlikely to survive.

Personally I don't understand how you could feel good about yourself with a tainted result.


Very good post Jake. I have never cheated though I have been accused of it and was protested "incognito" by some one that was "bigger" than me cubic inch wise years ago. The people that protested couldn't believe that a 301 motor could beat a 505. It was a weight thing with them and yet I weighed the same as the "incognito protesters" when I went across the scale. I REFUSE TO CHEAT because I am not a CHEATER.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 12:35PM
Very good topic for the recent political events.
Oh sorry, I should be in the Off Topic Forum Grinning

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 01:04PM
As Jake stated that how some rules are interpreted. I have questioned the 1%over /under rule for cubic inches. Say our class is 410 , so if you build for this rule you can be 414 , but if the rule is for wear on the engine , so at the year your should be over cubed right ? So is the guy cheating for building to the rule where the limit is 410.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2020 01:24PM by David Runkle(earls dream).

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 04:37PM
well we are all born with original sin and free choice, - so how many speed, lie, don't pay all taxes required,do you always yield ?, ect. and so on and on, the real test of "Man"is what he does when no one is looking or has no chance of being caught,we all need to look in the mirror, be honest(THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE HARD PART),REAL HONESTY COMES HARD AND WITH MUCH CONVICTION, PRIDE AND MUCH MORE THAN MOST HAVE THESE DAYS. TO ANSWER THE WHY PEOPLE CHEAT, -- PSYCHOLOGY WOULD NEED TO BE UNDERSTOOD COMPLETELY AND THAT AIN'T HAPPENI'N.Every thing in Life is a choice, and all choices made are not perfect.Is putting more weights on the back to weigh and then moving some forward after,Judgement call, - is that cheating.Is pulling forward on the scale to have a liter number show, than back more or in the middle cheating, we all look and interpete rules differently,cheating,the word is not politically correct, it makes me uncomfortable, -- why not say ,to arrange things for my convenience???????

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 04:42PM
Quote
David Runkle(earls dream)
As Jake stated that how some rules are interpreted. I have questioned the 1%over /under rule for cubic inches. Say our class is 410 , so if you build for this rule you can be 414 , but if the rule is for wear on the engine , so at the year your should be over cubed right ? So is the guy cheating for building to the rule where the limit is 410.

If you build for 410 when you build new then it better be 410 and not 414. With that said who checks the cubes on a new build? If some one was to build NEW at 414, then yes that person is cheating in my opinion but it has to be checked when it's built. If it is protested at the end of the year and found to be 414 then no the competitor has not cheated because they are still within the allowance for wear. If it is 419, then yes, clearly cheating. There's much more I could say but I won't.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 04:42PM
Dad had motto that he taught me.
Every honest man thinks that every man is honest. Every dishonest man thinks every man is dishonest. Some were entitled brats as children and never grew out of it.. Some suffer with a very inflated ego.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 18, 2020 04:58PM
if you are all worried about a few ci over, -- you are all in the wrong place in Life,many bigger fish to fry, like 540,680 in the 466 class and so on, technically four is over, but who measures that close.Please don't fool yourselves into believing many don't cheat.it all depends on how you choose to read the tape, scale and interpretation of the rules.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 01:55AM
Its like, I know you are cheating because I'm cheating and you beat me so you definitely have to be cheating!

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 01:56AM
Quote
xxx
if you are all worried about a few ci over, -- you are all in the wrong place in Life,many bigger fish to fry, like 540,680 in the 466 class and so on, technically four is over, but who measures that close.Please don't fool yourselves into believing many don't cheat.it all depends on how you choose to read the tape, scale and interpretation of the rules.

Before that allowance for wear rule came into effect, I saw a single engine modified get protested and then kicked out for a year and 10 days because he was over cubed by 5 cubes and that's not even 1 cube per cylinder.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 02:06AM
I dont think that the wear rule was intended for actual wear per say. I believe that its to allow say a .010 clean up so you don't have to buy a new block or back sleeve it. Example, say you have as above a 410 rule and say that you can clean up to say 416 max. Then what I see is the max allowed is 416. If it measures 417 you are out, because 416 is The Limit. So if one wants to push the bar and take the chance on being over, then that's the gamble you take. However in my opinion if 6 inches are why you are getting beat then I believe that you have other things standing in your way not just 6 cubic inchs.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 02:32AM
Technically One over would put you out, but I think that the purpose of the rules are for fair competition, not nitpicking, in the interest of fair playing level field, we implement rules for the intent to control blaintaint cheating.Even when they use a "pump" to check, some error is known to happen.Yes, the wear rule is not actual wear, but rather a lite clean up new size, to freshen said engine bore.Cheating is part of motorsports -- period.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 03:04AM
Cheating is Cheating -plain and simple - 1% is more than enough, and it needs to be enforced !!! No exception !!!

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 03:28AM
right and mr. wrong, - have you ever lied,misappropriated,sped, overlooked, not done the right thing, crossed the line, - Oh Yes to all the above, - or else you would be perfect, - most likely we are all guilty, of many indiscretions, - be honest, -- don't tell me, TELL YOURSELF.Hitch height is a perspective, if the scale surface is bend rough, not made level, has imperfections, dents, overlaps, each and every tractor is measured differently, and if the person measuring does not bend down level to see the accurate view, all hitches will be off 1/4 to a 1/2 inch or more, no one sees the same.many scales are made with a curve to the surface, - position makes all the difference.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 03:01PM
No disrespect to your dad, but I don't think any man , (or woman, for that matter), who tries to be honest , in every area of their life, would think "everyone else" to be as honest as they are trying to be.
Integrity is disappearing more and more as time goes on.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 19, 2020 04:17PM
Just look at the rude bully drivers, -how they push, crowd and drag and slide from one light to the next, -it shows more every day how pride, integrity, and self control is vanishing fast, I credit the electronic devices for much of the decline, less and less personal contact and it is easier to be crude and rude on the text,email, crap,=just call a business and you will see how it is failing as a friendly to use system.Our society is plunging rapidly to very dangerous levels of positivity.

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 20, 2020 12:51AM
Being a puller and a ex national assn tech Inspector this is a touchy subject.first remember pulling is a mechanical sport,that being said mechanics is in a constant state of evolution,every minute of every day,doubt me ?,visit any racetrack on sat evening.that being said theres small unknown men/garaged looking for a better part,be it engine,trans,rear,tire,chassis.when a better,different idea/way is found,a distinct mechanical advantage is found,and usually not for sale on the internet,but to a select few for a short time,till the next better idea/way is found.this is how it some view others as being cheaters,cause the accusers are always one step/season behind.thats why builders are rising to the top,they're not afraid to scrap what didnt work to thier expectations and search for a better way.prove me wrong ??????

Re: What possess one to cheat? December 20, 2020 01:10AM
Many yrs ago, I was very surprised to hear that getting the water rate set was extremely difficult on a national pulling team semi, the lowest man on the team changed out the bent rods, LOL, and so they figured out that a person sitting in the stands could change the rate via a laptop as needed, problem solved, I just shook my head.Now electronics controls much more, (traction control) and ect.Common rail EFI is another great example.Progress is amazing, -however some old school stuff is just fine,I am entering my seventh decade and still want to feel viable and needed.

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