10:46:47am, Friday, May 17, 2024
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What is stock appearing
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I am referring to natpa div 3 and up but I'm sure you could insert sanctioning body here, but where is the line for "stock appearing? I was at a pull on Saturday where a pair of gentelmen were selling fabricated front ends for various antique tractors, which is great I'm not against it in any way, but you can spot one from across the track. I have also heard more than once of people fabricateing axle housings for tractors, I have yet to see one on a tractor, but haven't really looked. I am not a Deere guy, so I wouldn't know a power block from a Deere block if you dropped it on my toe, but I can see a Murphy's manifold across the track. I am not knocking anybody's quality or craftmanship, or trying to insite a color war, just looking for clarification on what is stock appearing, or replacement part. I suppose where is the line? |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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jonny
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even in Div 2 they allow TSC and similar parts for manifilds and such,mine looks very different but is allowed. Div 3 is even more open with chassis mods and parts,not stock looking when we add gas and battery to the front,weight brackets,tip bars.And several over sized tires on most.Div 3 you can make aluimnum parts,not in two,but some of three's rules go over to Top cut 2 classes.Call the tech guy if you want the real answers. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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You are absolutely correct about the weight brackets batteries and fuel tanks, I wasn't even thinking about that. I suppose my question was more along the lines of how does an individual or a company make a part that is considered stock appearing or direct replacement, when that part is clearly intended for performance? Again not knocking it in any way, is there a vetting process, or do you bolt it on, as long as the holes line up, and tell people " oh yeah it's legal." I have read the rules, not that I can recite them in my sleep, but I don't see where that is defined. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 12/21/2010 Posts: 38 |
These are the reasons I have never pulled natpa. I didn’t build my tractor to conform to anyone’s rules, I just built it to have a good time. Natpa is very picky on a lot of things, so I’ve never even bothered going to one |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
There needs to be some clarity here about the intent of the divisions:
Division 1: The "restoration class" in the NATPA is pretty close to stock save for the wheelie bars and kill switch. Truly stock appearing Division 2: Division 1 with weight brackets and fabbed hitches, uncut tires Stock appearing to an extent Division 2t: Top cut tires, division 3 engine rules. Second-most popular class in NATPA. Division 3: full cuts, 4mph, engine rules have been loosened up per the wishes of the membership and as of June 2019 the only thing not kosher in Div 3 will be MM 800 and HD parts through the OEM lines. The most popular class in the NATPA. If you can win a 4500-5000-5500# Championship in the NATPA at 4mph you can go anywhere and win at 4mph. Division 4: 8mph class, It's been opened up in a similar vein to Div 3 beginning in June of 2019 and the HD parts for Molines are legal in June of 2019, which is when the first pull of the 2019-2020 season is held. Division 5: 12mph lots of creativity while maintaining engine lines pretty close to the OEM fitment. Division 5t: 5t is open to 1961 tractors, 12mph. This is where things get blurry as the RD Internationals and the 135 Wauks are legal here, and that's just scratching the surface as to what's legal. The membership in the last 2-3 years has been very open to change and to allowing different combinations in. I find that there's some that think they're not legal for NATPA when they can be with some changes. Most of the changes I see on non-NATPA tractors are safety related with regard to hitch design and wheelie bars. In the end, you watch speed, tire size, AND rpm and the rest takes care of itself. So to answer the OP's question finally, You'll see by observing Div 3 and up there's room for interpretation; you really need to attend an event and look at some of the tractors to see what flies in one division and what doesnt in another. MfSuper90 you need to pull that blanket off the top of your head and actually attend a NATPA pull before you pass judgement. Please don't think I'm picking on you but I think there's this undercurrent of opinion that still exists from 10-15 years ago that has given some a bad taste about the club. When I first started attending events in 2010 that bunch wasn't having any fun. In the following years things have changed. People ARE having fun, being competitive on the track and leaving it there so they can have fun off the track. It could be said for some pullers, some very good pullers in fact that hauling the tractor and pulling is a good excuse to visit with friends. I invite you MFSuper90 and others to the Summer Pull in Berrien Springs Michigan in June to see how things really are. For rules, schedule, and info on NATPA visit www.natpa.club Bryan Lively - 
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 12/21/2010 Posts: 38 |
No harm done. I haven’t been to a natpa pull since I went to Champaign, MI probably 8 years ago or so. Me and my neighbor were just joking recently about attending one, but we are both turbo’d so we didn’t think that would fly. I wouldn’t mind spectating or pulling our old MH 44 sometime if there is one near SE ohio. It’s good to hear they’ve loosened up on the rules. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Ok allow me to try to cut some of the fog from my original question. I attended the mid Atlantic Super Pull, as a spectator because our tractor is in pieces. While at the pull walking the pits and such I saw some things that I am not against however I would not consider "stock appearing" or direct replacement. I realize that this was not a NATPA pull and that the rules were very loose, but those tractors all came from somewhere, and in my mind NATPA would be a good barometer when casting a wide net as far as bringing tractors from out of state. Which could be wrong. I believe that I have the means and ability to make some parts, when do they become accepted as replacement? The way I read what the rules are part must be available to the public, so if I put something up for sale that makes it all good? Is it a legal until someone said it's not? Long and short I want to be the best I can within the rules. My next step is calling the tech guy listed in the Hook. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
Let me save you a step Pondering. The Harrisburg event is a large regional event that is the largest 1-day pull in antiques. To your point about stock appearing there are some different combinations represented at Harrisburg and in the context of stock appearing there were examples there that did not pass that test---they are neither right nor wrong but satisfy the rule sets applied at that event where speed limit and tire cut/size are the limiting factors and it works. You must be doing something right if you can get enough tractors to get 825 hooks in one day.
The sniff test to be able to pull just about anywhere in the country lies within the NATPA rule set. Build a division 2, 2T or 3 style of tractor and you can find a class to pull in anywhere. Email me at editor@hookmagazine.com and I can get you contact numbers for some folks with the NATPA who can answer specific questions about replacement parts and such. They can likely save you some headaches before you devote any level of time sweat or equity into a tractor. Bryan Lively -
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Re: What is stock appearing
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So we circle back to what is "stock appearing?" If money wasn't an issue and a guy wanted to build a div 3 because as you have said should be able to show up and have a class most anywhere, what is considered replacement part? Can I recast a block, make a billet block,make my own axle housings and manifolds so long as they are available to the public? Who has the say on what is or isn't legal? What is stopping a guy from dumping a bunch of money into R&D and somebody else puts the kibosh on it because something doesn't "appear" correct. Inversely what enables a guy to stand at his table of wares and say "yes it is absolutely legal." |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
Again, to your question, I'm happy to provide you some names and numbers to get you the answers you need NATPA-wise. Email me at editor@hookmagazine.com and I'll be glad to help. The names I can provide can help you, in order that you don't throw money at something that might not be legal once you have completed it.
Outside of the NATPA rule set we are seeing combinations in places that are not at all factory appearing. Thats not to say they're right or wrong, just different. Speed, tire size/cut and rpms cure many ills, I'll say that until I'm blue in the face because it does work. By the way: the "recast" ship left the port decades ago when powerblocks were cast and are used today. That's only the surface of it; improved heads are available, some recast blocks are out there as are jugs for Molines. There's other stuff being done to this point and like every other sort of pulling the question has to be asked, "where does it stop?" Bryan Lively -
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Re: What is stock appearing
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I know things get approved that go totally against the rules as written if the person doing it ask the right person.
I have 3 tractors and not one of them are allowed in the class they belong in. I see things allowed that are not in anyway stock parts. But I have 2 tractors that are bone stock moline tractors and neither Are allowed in div 2. But yet I see some tractors with parts that were not made by the manufacturer but were after market parts for that tractor allowed. Sometimes I think it depends who you talk to. NATPA is definitely biased as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. There are many people that feel that way. As a matter of fact about half the people I talk to feel that way. All three of my tractors are more stock than 90% of the tractors pulling NATPA yet they are not allowed where they should be pulling. There are things that have recently been approved that are totally against the way the rules are written. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
Get a deere.been that way since the ntpa was started,I was there that day !! |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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I will be in touch |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 03/18/2012 Posts: 4 |
I was at the Princeton pull and watched a few classes, I was shocked at the RPMs a few of the tractors were running. The was no way in hell the were even close to stock plus 30% and that was a Div 3 class. I did not see anyone checking RPMs. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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plum krazy
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another know it all,many tractors can run 2000 pluse rpms at 30 over |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 03/18/2012 Posts: 4 |
There were a few tractors that were way over 2000 RPMs. A couple of them were 2 cylinders John Deeres. I was standing next to a NATPA board member and he even agreed that these were way over on RPMs. That way so many people won't pull NATPA. In stead of checking tractors, they insult and belittle the person that points out the problems. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Joey
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Matt,put on your own perfect pull,perfect tech,perfect rules.I have been to a dozen or more NATPA pulls and hundreds of brush pulls and other high end venues,all,most and many have a set of rules,put the fun part is go,share friendship.action,participate or not,travel,enjoy,compete,run what u brung,hope you were ready.I have seen the tach out checking at Pulls like Princeton,come volunteer to do it,members were helping flag,drag,register,grade and organize,we need positive helpers,not complaners.The fact that you can be teched at any time on rpms keeps many folks honest. Some not some much,-- life in general,suppose you did not speed on the hyway over to the pull,signalled and were a perfect driver,citizen and person.Live and let live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was told that by an 90 yo ,good advice. Nothing in life is perfect,rules,politics,church,friendships or health,work,nature or ourselves,don't throw a good thing in the trash or under the bus.Bring your "A" game and play by the rules you can live with,enjoy,be Happy,Play,make friends and hope for a good ending.Matt,-- look at all the bitchi'n on the forums in all classes,mostly also most OPEN classes with few rules,still complainers. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Joey
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Matt,put on your own perfect pull,perfect tech,perfect rules.I have been to a dozen or more NATPA pulls and hundreds of brush pulls and other high end venues,all,most and many have a set of rules,put the fun part is go,share friendship.action,participate or not,travel,enjoy,compete,run what u brung,hope you were ready.I have seen the tach out checking at Pulls like Princeton,come volunteer to do it,members were helping flag,drag,register,grade and organize,we need positive helpers,not complaners.The fact that you can be teched at any time on rpms keeps many folks honest. Some not some much,-- life in general,suppose you did not speed on the hyway over to the pull,signalled and were a perfect driver,citizen and person.Live and let live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was told that by an 90 yo ,good advice. Nothing in life is perfect,rules,politics,church,friendships or health,work,nature or ourselves,don't throw a good thing in the trash or under the bus.Bring your "A" game and play by the rules you can live with,enjoy,be Happy,Play,make friends and hope for a good ending.Matt,-- look at all the bitchi'n on the forums in all classes,mostly also most OPEN classes with few rules,still complainers. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 03/18/2012 Posts: 4 |
So somehow I'm the bad person that need fixed. Because I am sharing some insight on how the NATPA might get a few more pullers to show up at their pull, I need to change. OK, I get it. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Agree
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Matt you are right...don't beep the horn now is the rules and pull whatever rpms, engine configurations, etc you want...looks like they are copying USAP's way of doing things..USAP does enforce rpms though. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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rules maker
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All rules are open to interpretation, realavancey and perception,some have no clear answer, just personal preference. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
Heck i saw on of them big continentals in a mh so that little motor would have no problem |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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101 Owner
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I pull a 101 Massey with a 427 Continental flat head that I put in it...It sure looks good in there..For now I have to pull the open classes as the classic pulls. |
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Re: What is stock appearing
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Ben Crazy
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I have a question regarding a Massey Harris. The 101 super had a flat head Chrysler 201cid 6cyl and the 44 had a continental flat head 226 cid 6cyl. Chrysler continued to manufacture a 242cid inline 6cyl however it had overhead valves through 2005. The local Dodge dealership says that is the factory replacement. So my question is would that be legal. I would think it would be without a doubt for the 101 but what about putting it in the larger chassis of the 44? I don’t see why it would be an issue if it would be legal in a way lighter and smaller chassis. Any thoughts? |
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