12:26:34pm, Saturday, May 11, 2024
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Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Fritz
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I looked at the list and there are alot of guys that signed up and don't make many hooks |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Mn fan
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Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything, never really did. NTPA should just make a list of those who bought a license and leave it at that. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Fan 2
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Well it actually means something to many of the pullers. Hopefully you realize many of them try to make every hook because they signed up to do so. Sometimes they are unable to do so due to breakage or whatever but I have spoken to many over the years who try to keep what they committed to. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Precommitt
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Things happen, pullers break stuff. These are people who run businesses and do the best they can to support there class. This has nothing to do with it being NTPA or PPL. The show looked pretty good down in Kansas for a 1st year event. Yes there could have been more pullers but if all you worry about is who doesn't show up your looking for a problem. Pullers always have big plans to not tear stuff up and keep things together but @#$%& happens. Gibson had both ends of the tractor tore up, kielmeyer had a family emergency he had to deal with. Those 2 tractors would have helped the class but all others had a good showing. Rockwell will be a great show. So will Rock Valley and Freeport and many other pulls this next weekend. Have we really gotten to the point where there should only be one pull every weekend? All this complaining over nothing. Pulling is thriving and the nit pickers want problems. Fans are coming in groves and all organizations have solid numbers. Some events may be down in pullers based on the location and competing events but how many pulls are in that part of Kansas? Looked like a nice facility and the promoter has the option on what class he wants. Hope he can have the show again next year! |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Gregk
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Precommitt. How can you say pulling is thriving and all orgs have good numbers There were 6 mods at a GN pull. 2 were within 53 ft of the leader. Is that what GN classes have become ? It appears that is what the Lt Unl and Mod classes are going to be outside of a couple venues until NTPA does something to reduce number of modified classes. There simply are not enough competitive mods to support 3 mod classes with divergent blower rules. I dont care if the pull is in Kansas, Ohio, or Siberia something needs done to fix NTPA pulling. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Pre committ
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Greg K, you are the problem with pulling. No skin in the game but expectations over the moon. Once you get done having your hissy fit NTPA, OUTLAW, PPL will still be thriving. Maybe not to the expectations you have set but to most others standards. If NTPA is not making you happy then move on. You don't know what it takes to put anything pulling related together. No pulling organization is perfect, end of story! |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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Another management decision by NTPA that makes no sense. If you know you need to bring committed pullers to all their class hook and that your precommit program does not work why not fix it. When they announce who had purchased GN license and who was precommit they put it on website and underlined the precommits. Now that was some real marketing genius. Did they assume the East Coast SSD tractors would actually show up to pull this year. Your mod class has Berg and Rose who have ran mods class for years along with Doc. Pathetic. Did Ross, Raymond, Peterson, Gibson, Super Bee, Admundsen, Corzine, 3 SSD from Pa/Maryland, and others tell NTPA they would not attend all class hooks. Did they expressly tell NTPA that they would not be in Kansas. False advertising by NTPA |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Posts: 1,164 |
Sounds like you have the solution, so how about you go to the NTPA and suggest it to them. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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neutrality
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Greg k, what you are beefing about is exactly how PPL has always operated their PreCommit. I don't read where you are stewing about that.
But, of course, in today's pulling environment sentiment, why NTPA can't do anything right whereas PPL does everything properly. Get real. They each have pros & cons. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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I give the NTPA credit for trying to expand their turf, but the closest competitor was the Red Horse with a 900 mile round trip. Next closest was a 1400 mile round trip from Mandan ND. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Interesting
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Well that puts a little more perspective on it for Greg K. Hey Greg where are you from? Wanna drive 700 miles one way to support a pull by attending if all precommits show up? Put the shoe on and see how it fits. You have basically become the nay sayer of all things positive |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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We are talking about GN classes not LLSS |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Posts: 1,164 |
Well get your own pulling vehicle and let's see you at every national event without you missing one for any reason. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Moderator Registered: 02/21/2012 Posts: 797 |
Let's try to keep the discussion to the NTPA "Precommit" program and not have it devolve into just jabbing at each other. (: John Murray Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama. Watch LGP on YouTube Like LGP on Facebook 
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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Sorry John. He gets under my skin really fast. I try to ignore him but Im weak. I feel strongly that the NTPA precommi program is an injustice to fans. I realize it is a long way from Maryland or Ky to Kansas. But the distance is same as it was when pullers precommitted. If pullers told NTPA they would not travel to Kansas then that should be public knowledge. Having a program that is so abused does not help NTPA in any way. So make it useful and reliable or discard it. If Big Jack and Gibsons had personal or vehicle issues they understandably were absent. I sense many were absent because pull was in Kansas and it is not that important to pullers to support the entire circuit anymore. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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People who are involved in the program, who run for points, who have the time, money and luck to appear are the backbone of the sport.
The program started and was aimed at promoters. Who can they put on their t-shirts or use in advertising? That list gave them the STARS of the NTPA. Same holds true for today. Some of the best in the business where at Dodge City Kansas and I can truly state: They will all be back. Promoter is looking at TWO TRACKS next year. The pullers that made the trip supported an event that has the great possibility of being on the NTPA schedule for YEARS TO COME. He was impressed with the quality of the vehicles, the competitive spirt and the professional way that the NTPA BRAND enhanced his RaceTrack. Not once did he complain about numbers of competitors. He realizes the special competitors that came to HIS place for the weekend. The commitment of the Blagraves and Yantzer travelling to his track was impressive. They were not on a list....they showed up to pull and support the Association. The promoter always has the decision to make on classes. If they didn't show up then the class probably gets dropped. GREG K: What do you change with program? |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Face in crowd
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I've been to all sorts of pulls from all sorts of organizations- ATPA, PPL, NTPA, Outlaw and numerous local clubs. Quality is the name of the game. Regardless of class or level. I'd take a well run 2 1/2 hour pull over a marathon pull that goes 4 1/2 hours every time! I've heard it said many times that one awesome pass made by top notch vehicle is "worth the price of admission" and I think that is very true.
And from a fan's perspective, at some point the law of diminishing returns comes into play. Seeing 10 in a class is a hell of a lot better than five. Seeing 15 better than 10. But at some point, a lot of fans are ready to see something else especially when their favorite class is coming up at the end. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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Doc, all is just perfect with NTPA. Why mess with perfection. 6 mods, 4 Light Unlimited mods, 0 Open SS, 9 precommitted minis, no shows galore of precommits, low purses, high membership costs, pullers leaving organization in droves. I cant think of any needed changes. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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The advertising for dodge city said 60 pre-commits and then 36 were actually there. That shouldn't happen. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Posts: 1,164 |
He's not saying everything is perfect with the NTPA. There is a lot that should, and needs, to be changed. He's talking about how do you change the Precommit program. You don't like that people precommit and don't show up, but don't say anything about PPL's precommit which has several pullers that aren't showing up either. Also, 0 open supers, where have they ran? Let's see how many show up this weekend in Rockwell before discussing this. For Mods, Jostock/Douglas aren't pulling this year with Billy not being able to get to the US yet, there's another mod in the works with a team that's currently competing, Corzine's are on a select schedule after missing the first pull, you still have Tedder who I am sure is focusing on work more than pulling, Les Korpal just built a tractor, Bollinger goes to select events. The class will be just fine. I do agree that something needs to happen with the Light Unlimiteds to get more numbers in the class or pulling to plug on the class will probably be in the near future. I also agree that there could be a better purse, but that either falls on the promoter and raises the cost for them or getting a lot more sponsorship dollars to fund it. Lastly, membership is higher than PPL, but I don't think that's affecting numbers. Not sure what you have against NTPA, but having both NTPA and PPL around is good for everyone so let's just help support both so we can have two thriving national organizations. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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It was in a newspaper article. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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I would say NTPA Precommit would be NTPA version of PPL Champions Club which may or may not still exist. I think anybody that follows PPL CT knows their precommit list is list of who bought CT license. Its only way to pull at Hillsboro and couple other pulls. 8 SSO tonight in Rockwell. After Rockwell zero SSO till BG. Was their purse increase this year with addition of Angry Farmer and Summit ? I like the idea of doing away with the Precommit program. Problem with giving top 10 free entry following year is that not all GN classes have 10 who bought GN points license. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Fan 2
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The 8 Open Supers that were here in Rockwell put on a VERY good show as did all the classes last night. Mod class was exceptional to end the night with a first time winner on last hook of the night. The track was taking all the lower they had. As for Greg K worried about rest of year, I would say Who cares? We drove 650 miles to be HERE, and I'm sure the Lions club is happy with the show they paid for and saw last night, HERE! Spoke to a couple of them and can tell you they liked the show!! |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Grubby was that radio or TV advertising? Or interview?
What were the entry fees per class? I don't feel that spectators make decision based on a show lasting over 5 hours. 3 hours is about what people will sit. Having 50 plus in a class was a badge of excellence back in the day. Times have changed. Back in the 90's very few PS GN hooks. FWD's were the big number class. I'm amazed that PS tractors now are the top paid class. That occurs over time and is not the "vision" of a sanctioning body, the sport like other business/entertainment goes in cycles. NTPA is not perfect. Don't maintain that it is. But this year was a first for me in over 30 years. 3 out of 4 events at racetracks started off the season. 2 of them first time NTPA GN events with a future to grow. The other in it's fourth year and growing to become an event larger NTPA event. Atwood TN is a great place to grow. Several fans were glad that another GN came into their state. Many are Chapel Hill diehards. Those fans will continue to go to the Super Pull of the South and they knew the NTPA brand and were attracted to the Clayhill track. Dodge City was a great event from a competition standpoint and a fan standpoint. Ticket buyers from Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Iowa and Minnesota. Single track in a little over 3 hours with Winner's Circle interviews. Does there need to be more money to pullers? Yes! NTPA attracted Angry Farmer and Summit into the sport. Every little bit helps. And stop with the nonsense about over paid or HQ raking in all this money. It's absurd and very far from the truth. Events that start on time, have close competition and end in a reasonable amount of time are the way to show off pulling. Add to that good competitors and reasonable food and beverage and good facility bring first timers back for more. Do away with PC program and bonus pullers who finish in the top ten get free entry at the event the next year...How to replace that lost revenue? When Dave Banter retired from pulling it was going to be the end of the mod/unl class.... |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Very well said Grubby. That's 60% of what was advertised. I can't think of many times that ANYONE on this page would be happy to receive 60% of what was expected. Yes, we can ALL agree that it's better than nothing (a terrible strawman argument by the way), but that doesn't mean it couldn't be better. After all, does the promoter get to only pay 60% of the fees to the NTPA? Do the fans get a ticket discounted to 60%? Yeah, I doubt it. Both fans and promoters have an expectation based on the NTPA's pre-commit list but it seldom lines up with the true numbers these days. I know there are numerous factors for vehicles being absent but it's clear that the pre-commit program is in need of some tweaking to better represent the show people can expect at any given event. So lets hear it, what changes should be made? Should the list be a one and done sign-up? Should the list be updated weekly? Should there be higher non-refundable fee to pre-commit (or should there be a deadline to receive a refund)? I'd love to hear actual ideas and solutions to the problem instead of just complaining with no constructive ideas. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Page out of history???
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OH1979er
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There was a point in time that you bought a membership you collected points wherever you ran. There was no regional or grand national license, just a license. Maybe you scrap the pre-commit and go back to that. Maybe the underdogs show up at the local national event and have some success and think they have a shot at making Enderle so they run more of the circuit. That system worked in the 80’s what many of us consider the golden years of pulling. Guys are going to run what their budget allows, to be honest. Guys coming from the east let’s use Ohio, from NTPA offices it’s about 14 hours out there. The guys further East add a few hours. The investment from a tractor will never be won back, there was a time that if it stayed together the beast could come close to paying for itself. It’s roughly 1000 miles from NTPA offices and if your hauler (being generous) got 7mpg it would be a little over $900 in fuel to get there and back. That doesn’t include if your puller breaks, semi breaks down, food for the weekend, etc. The problem is much larger than just the pre-commit program. Pulling vehicles aren’t getting any cheaper, purses don’t cover travel costs anymore or even make a dent. Not sure what the solution is. |
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Re: Page out of history???
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oldironsides fannatic
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What year did NTPA become insolvent and had to go to a select few with the idea of a $10,000 dollar cost per share that would start a holding company that would then assume NTPA's debts and forever control NTPA? That fundamental change in the make up of the first and currently oldest pulling association is why NTPA pullers payouts have not kept up with the times,........ |
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Re: Page out of history???
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Under_Pressure
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This is the fundamental shift that has occurred in every form of motorsports over the past 50-60 years, and it has completely changed the way everyone has to operate. Time was, if you were good at your particular discipline you could break even and at least stay out there without a ton of sponsorship income. If you were really good you could make a good living to boot. Now, in essentially every form of motorsports from local dirt tracks to pulling to Formula 1, you can win every race and the championship and it won't come close to paying the bills. That completely shifts the reward structure- you can be the greatest engineer/mechanic/driver in your motorsport but if you can't attract sponsors to fund it at the necessary level or have sufficient resources to pay the bills out of your own pocket, it's meaningless. It's really unfortunate, but it's reality. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Registered: 09/25/2018 Posts: 78 |
Jake,
I agree that it would be a great thing to have some constructive ideas to help with the pre-commit issue. I have been reading through different topics about this for a while now and I am not sure I have heard anything other than it works or blow it up. Now mind you that I am what I would call a relative newbie on topics like these kinds of things, but have been a fan and around pulling for many years. My question is this...What do the pre-commit lists even do? I get that from an organizations perspective that it helps them promote their brand (for instance professional sports push their "stars" in marketing and promotional stuff i.e. Jordan, Brady, Messi). And I'm sure that it helps generate up front revenue for the organizations by the purchase of pre-commit licenses (gotta have some money to get started...simple business practice here). And from the pullers perspective a pre-commit allows them certain access to select events. Is that all that these lists are for? I guess I am trying to understand the thought process behind the lists before trying to offer any suggestions on how to fix it. Can anyone shed some light on this for the uneducated? And one thing I hate to reiterate but it needs to be stated again is that this year is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. As much as we would love to think that during the 2020 shutdown that our favorite pullers were just wrenching away and getting ready for the day that they could finally go pulling on a circuit again, in actuality most of these pullers most likely had their machines tucked away in a trailer or the corner of the shop. Some guys had parts coming or on the shelf but I know of many, many that did not. Why spend money on a machine if you can't go play? The shutdown started in March which was after NFMS and well before the summer season would have started. Teams were most likely not ready for this. I too was very hopeful that in 2021 we would see record numbers in all classes but the truth of it is that a lot of guys pull their stuff out in the spring along with their farm equipment and try to get it ready for the first hook of the summer. When that happens and someone who is used to getting pistons or a pump or a turbo in a couple weeks like in a normal year finally orders what they need it creates a supply issue...even in a normal year. This was made way worse this past year in that the supply chain (for example forgings for pistons, some alloy steels, bearings etc) was shut down too. And before you all come after me for saying this, you should know I am in the parts making business...antiques to pro stocks. Unprecedented supply chain issues that we were ill prepared for. Another thing that has many pullers staying at home is the fact that a lot of them rely on having help at their respective businesses and they are having to do more with less as far as manpower. If the businesses that support the pulling teams are not running then there will be a far greater impact than our favorite tractors missing a few hooks. I spoke directly to a recent winner of a major pull and he said exactly this was the reason they have not been out as much as they had hoped to this year. My reason for stating all of this was not to wander off topic or get political but more to state that judging the pre-commit vs. actual turnout in 2021 has many more variables than normal and it shifts the arguments of one side more than the other and that I think that it should be noted when discussing this issue. So to circle back...what does the pre commit actually do other than what I mentioned above (before my rambling lol)? Any info is appreciated. Paul Romack |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Buckeyefan
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The NTPA changed the precomitt setup. Normally if you precomitt and made all the pulls, unless you had an acceptable excuse approved before or at the pull, you would get your precomitt money at the end of the year. Now they took that money and put it into the points fund and there is absolutely no consequence for not making all the pulls and no incentive to make all the pulls. It screws the competitors and the promoters. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Registered: 09/25/2018 Posts: 78 |
Buckeyefan,
Thanks for the info. I really did not know what the pre commit list was actually for. When you say that the competitors would get their pre-commit money at the end of the year provided they meet the criteria mentioned, was there a financial incentive (i.e over and above what they paid in at the beginning of the year) or did they just hand you back your checks? Or do pre-commit licenses just make you eligible for certain hooks (invitationals etc...) Paul Romack |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Accounting
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Call for a forensic audit of WPI financial info. Follow the money and paper trail
You'll get the answers you've been asking. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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Greg k
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I will run up to Worthington in the morning and audit their books. |
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Re: Does NTPA precommittment mean anything anymore
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I think the bigger issue with Dodge City is having a tractor pull 450 miles away from the closest competitor. That's expecting a lot out of the pullers. |
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PreCommit
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
I hope people realize that the "pre-commit" program of the NTPA did actually get tweaked this year. So, you all are discussing the "old" precommit program. JW |
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Re: PreCommit
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Greg k
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The tweaked precommit program is not getting precommitted pullers to attend pulls. At least 3 unlimited not in Rockwell that were underlined on the precommit list |
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Re: PreCommit
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Billy Biers was here but had a bad motor and went home. One of the other two had chassis breakage from Tomah and chose not to come. |
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Re: PreCommit
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Greg k
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So Benedict/Criswell broke chassis ? |
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Re: PreCommit
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That's what i was told |
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Re: PreCommit
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learning
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"I hope people realize that the "pre-commit" program of the NTPA did actually get tweaked this year. So, you all are discussing the "old" precommit program. JW" bandit Jim, please educate us on the "tweaked" 2021 NTPA PreCommit program. What is different about it versus the "old"? |
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