New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 09, 2011 04:51AM
I hope the WPI board listens to the divisional committee on this. So far the track record of WPI taking the advice of the divisional committees hasn't been to good. Allowing the OEM 24 Valve heads makes sense since there are a few brands out there running them now. Can anyone explain why it has been 12 valve heads for so long, is that just complacency and a such a strong desire to remain status quo? I thought what made this sport great was the willingness of people to try new things, kinda hard to do if it hasn't been allowed all these years. Hope it passes, would allow alot more color in that class.
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 09, 2011 06:35AM
what color are we missing that can run a oem 4 valve style head, sounds like deere guys wanting an advantage to me but i dont know what engines have 4 valve heads. and i did not even see the recomondation on ntpa site, or are you privy to that info before rest of us. if you allow that update then i want to run common rail electric controlled fuel systems
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 06:37AM
had to change my subject line
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 07:53AM
Stupid idea. The light Pro calss is great like it is. If it ain`t broke dont fix it!
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Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 09, 2011 09:49AM
Particularly the 8.9 ISL that comes with roller lifters in it that are bigger in diameter than anything in the tractor classes right now. It has a 24 Valve head on it. The 8.3 and 8.9 cranks are interchangeable. Anything that came with an 8.4 Sisu Motor in it. WPI/NTPA has let a guy in Mid-South run an 8.9 Litre Block in front of an Oliver Rearend and put Oliver Sheet Metal on it but god for bid he run that 24 valve head. What is the fear of the 24 valve head? The rule allows newer technology into the class since when is that a bad thing?

JAKE Says
Four valve heads should be allowed when they are OEM for tractors. Tractor pulling rules need to keep up with current tractor technology. The rules should not disallow something that is pulling a plow in the fields. Tractor's with 3 and 4 valve heads will most likely be commonplace on farms across this country pulling plows, manure spreaders, and everything else under the sun. Pulling rules should allow new OEM technology whenever possible. October 9, 2009.[www.pulloff.com]
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Re: Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 09, 2011 03:40PM
I believed that then, and I still believe it now. I’ve personally always believed that current OEM tractor technology should be allowed. I wrote the following Opinion in 2008 and posted it here in 2009, and I still believe it today: My 2009 post

I’d make a few minor changes to include recast (aftermarket) heads. In my perfect world I’d change the Super Stock, Pro Stock, Light Pro Stock, and Limited Pro Stock rules to read:

  • ALL aftermarket heads (including billet, recast, and even recast aftermarket heads that accept OEM manifolds) are limited to:
    1. Two (2) valves per cylinder
    2. Push rods only (no OHC)
  • Stock OEM tractor heads (tractor model must be equipped with the given head) are limited to:
    1. Stock number of valves as factory equipped (3, 4, 5 etc… valve heads legal)
    2. Overhead cam heads legal if factory equipped

I’m NOT infavor of aftermarket 4-valve heads, but I think it would be good for the sport to encourage the use of new OEM technology whenever possible. I'm also NOT infavor of just throwing any 4-valve truck head on a tractor. This is tractor pulling, and we need to put the tractor parts back in the tractor classes. If the tractor came with an 8.3 and a 2-valve head then it should go down the track with a 2-valve head. If a differnent model came with a 4-vavle head then they should update the hood to match the block and head combo. Just my opinion


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


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Re: Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 09, 2011 03:49PM
Jake the 8.9 Litre Cummins comes in tractors and has a 24 valve head. The newer versions of the 8.3 come with a 24 valve head also known as the ISC. One has Roller Lifters (8.9L and over 1.2 in diameter) and the ISC (8.3 still has a flat tappet cam) The cranks are interchangeable between the 2 blocks. The bore spacing is the same as is the bore. The 8.9 Comes stock 540. These 2 particular Cummins motors came in every brand but a JD. Question and maybe the die-hard IH guys can correct me, but the roller lifter blocks they use in the IH tractors, weren't those originally out of trucks?
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Re: Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 10, 2011 01:51AM
Yes, I know, that's why I think they should allow the 4-valve heads on the tractors that came from the factory that way in stock form.

What I don't think they should allow is taking an Agco that came with a 2-valve head and sticking a 4-vavle head on it. If the sheetmetal came with a 2-valve head under the hood, then it should have a 2-valve head under the hood. If it came with a 4-valve head under the hood then they should be allowed to run the 4-valve head (with the corresponding hood to match the head of course)


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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To a point I somewhat agree September 10, 2011 02:01AM
I agree and disagree to an extent. The problem being that NTPA has let it go on for to long the mixing and matching of sheet metal. In my opinion, from a purests perspective, a majority of the IH guys are not right if we take what you say as the measuring stick. A good many of them are running the 706 or 806 rearends Which would be the D282 or D361 and we have put a DT466 in front of them. Then if Engine and sheet metal are supposed to match anyone running the MX series sheet metal and probably even some of the Case sheet metal should have a Cummins under the hood. Then they have allowed the truck blocks with the big roller lifters. The powers that be have allowed the convalusion. I personally don't understand why guys are against this, other than a 4 valve head is something different. Hypermax hasn't developed one for pulling, but I agree if it came in a farm tractor from the factory with 4 valves, OHC, whatever, those OEM parts should be allowed.
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Re: Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 09, 2011 03:51PM
I think recast heads have been running all year in the light pro class.
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Re: Anything that runs a Cummins, SISU, and to quote Jake MorganThumbs Up September 10, 2011 01:44AM
Yes, the Light Pro class has plenty of recast heads, so does the Limited Pro and so does the Super Farm. It's been that way for a few years now. The rules are both poorly worded and poorly enforced in many organizations. The term recast (aka aftermarket) is why I amended the wording of my 2008 opinion to include more than just billet.

Limit the aftermarket (recast, billet, Hypermax, etc...) to 2-valve heads and let the true OEM heads (the ones actually made by Cummins, Sisu, etc...) run however many valves they came stock with, and let them run an OHC if that's what the tractor came stock with.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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AMEN Jake! September 10, 2011 01:46AM
If it came from the factory, allow it!
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 09:40AM
Cummins also comes to mind...

I don't think it would be a change for the good either. I think it would be a step in the wrong direction that would eventually lead to less color in the class. Which is just the opposite of what makes it so good! What engine could realistically be used that isnt with the 12 valve rule? Deere can run a 12 valve and so can a cummins.

Class is awesome just the way it is. I hope the WPI realizes what a good thing they have going and doesn't mess it up.

Also seems like if you change that you are penalizing the competitors who stepped up to the plate and supported the class from the beginning.

Just my two cents...

I can see a poll on this subject from Jake coming in the future Winking
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 09:43AM
do it like Europe... they gave the 4 valves a lower cui limit to compensate for more flow.
Anyhow.. question is, which engine is not delivered with a 4 valve head anymore and what are you going to do in 10 years?
It is ridicilous if you can't take parts from the production line to a tractor pull.

The Sisu (Agco) is 4 - valve, so is the CNH Iveco and also the JD... what else is left?


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2011 09:44AM by Sascha.
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 12:01PM
the class is gaining numbers, popularity and hooks so lets change it? why am i not surprised
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 02:25PM
I like the idea but then again I dont compete in that class so who am I to talk. I agree its time to modernize, not just in this class either. All the new 24v heads and common rail system are so effecient its not hard to make alot of power with them. Maybe like someone suggested limiting cubes on 24v motors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2011 02:27PM by horsinaround9.
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 02:43PM
The almighty 466 IH does not have a 24 valve.
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Thumbs DownRe: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I dont like it Thumbs Down September 09, 2011 03:56PM
12 extra valves, 12 extra seats, extra parts for the rocker bridge, more stress on the cam, high dollar late model heads. Has any of you guys priced valves lately? Then you want all the ih, ford, case, oliver, massey etc... to have to switch out their chassis to make their tractors legal to use a late model engine with 4 valves. If it was a component it wouldn't be that bad but still not needed, just extra parts, and alot more money to do the same thing.
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That is the most logical reason I have heard yet Thumbs Up September 09, 2011 04:07PM
Great point! That makes a lot of sense to me. Finally, a voice of reason.

Thanks Curt.
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Why do they have to switch chassis Curt? September 09, 2011 04:08PM
NTPA tech is allowing an Oliver Superfarm in mid-south to run Oliver 2050 sheet metal and an 8.9 Cummins Block? How I spend my money and what I spend it on should be of no-one's business but mine. If I want to take the time to develop a 24 valve motor and it takes me a little more time and a little more money that's my business. Are we all supposed to run the DT466, JD466, Genesis Motor, etc for the next 40 years, by your logic that is what you are arguing, since more valves cost more money lets not allow them, lets just ran the same old stinkin SHI+ we have run since the dawn of pulling. I don't know if you have put your hands on the 8.9 Cummins block yet, but I personally believe there is a ton of potential in that motor. I believe you will have to have a custom set of roller lifters made because I don't think the brass roller in the stock lifters could take the abuse, but there is a company out there that already has a custom set on their computers ready to produce, and they are bigger than anything currently running in pulling or NHRA, pretty sure they could take the abuse.
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Re: Why do they have to switch chassis Curt? September 09, 2011 07:50PM
Does an Oliver use a clutch can or does the engine bolt into the tranny housing???
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Re: Why do they have to switch chassis Curt? September 10, 2011 05:28AM
All of the Olivers I have seen (old antiques, 1850, 2255) use a clutch can and a shaft with a coupler to connect to the transmission.
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Re: Why do they have to switch chassis Curt? September 10, 2011 06:23PM
Because the cummins will not bolt into a ih, ford, case, jd oliver etc... without a spacer plate. Just because NTPA allowed someone to do something doesn't mean its right. I guess if you want to spend your money to build a 24 valve cummins go for it, wouldn't want to deny you of your rights. I don't know where your going to pull it but its your money do what you want. So if we go with your logic you must think its somehow more fun to go to vegas and gamble at the $100.00 table over a $10.00 table when in reality its the same just cost more. I have a brand new 9 litre sitting in a crate but I don't think I am ready to start chopping up a $15,000.00 engine to pull with. The genesis came out in 1991 and we didn't have one to pull with till 1998 because they where to expensive, had to wait till a customer drove one into his pond.
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Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 10, 2011 06:48PM
There are alot of guys running spacer plates now that shouldn't be according to the rules, but when was the last time you saw an NTPA tech pull a clutch scatter blanket off to check for them? Second in my argument, I didn't say a thing about my rights so I don't know why you got off on that tangent. I know I can buy the 24 Valve Cummins head cheaper than what you can buy the Hypermax OEM Type pro-stock heads that are in the class now.
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Re: Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 11, 2011 12:00AM
And then you will want to recast your 24 valve head and on it goes
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Re: Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 11, 2011 04:31AM
It's pretty simple, write rules now that don't allow aftermarket (recast) heads with more than 2 valves per cylinder. Tractor pulling has gone too far to the extreme in many classes, make this a class that puts more "tractor" back in tractor pulling by allowing true OEM parts to be used. As for anyone who thinks that this will cost more money, I'd be willing to bet that the OEM 4-valve heads will be much cheaper than the recast heads, and they will probably flow just as well.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 11, 2011 05:34AM
Jake you got things right!!!!!
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Re: Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 11, 2011 04:56AM
Yeah I can only tell you I have never seen any NTPA official look at anything I don't pull with NTPA. I guess if NTPA allows spacer plates and recast heads I wouldn't imagine they wouldn't care if you run a 24 valve head so if thats going to make you happy do it, I really don't care what you do. You didn't have to say "rights" it was implied when you said it was your money and you could do what you wanted to do with it, or in other words it was your "right" to do what you wanted. If in fact they are allowed to run a hyperhead in Lite pro and you are not allowed to run a 4 valve head it really doesn't matter how much the price difference is does it? I don't know what the rule means, I know what it says but apparently if they are allowing recast heads you can read into the rule what ever you want. My dad always said one turbo one headache, two turboes two headaches and I would imagine it would be the same for the heads, 24 headaches.
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Re: Alot of guys running spacer plate now September 11, 2011 05:37AM
Quote
BuckeyePuller
There are alot of guys running spacer plates now that shouldn't be according to the rules, but when was the last time you saw an NTPA tech pull a clutch scatter blanket off to check for them? Second in my argument, I didn't say a thing about my rights so I don't know why you got off on that tangent. I know I can buy the 24 Valve Cummins head cheaper than what you can buy the Hypermax OEM Type pro-stock heads that are in the class now.

Spacer plate allows u to not have to grind out your clutch housing, ie safety issue. Adapter plate makes mating a John Deere engine to an ih rear possible ie performance issue, which one do u think should raise the eyebrows of the tech's

By the time your cheap 24 valve heard is ready to go down the track it will cost every bit as much or more than that hyper head u r squealing about
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 10, 2011 08:36AM
Where did you find this agenda item from the Light Pro Stock Divisional Committee. I don't remember seeing anything on it. JW
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 10, 2011 08:41AM
By the same logic I guess intercoolers should all be allowed now as well since they coome on pretty much everything built these days stock over 100hp.
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 10, 2011 09:01AM
I think it was in the puller magazine.
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Re: New LIGHT PRO Proposal, I like it!Thumbs UpThumbs UpBeer September 10, 2011 01:39PM
LEAVE THE CLASS ALONE. Seriously you gotta draw the line somewhere. Go pull the big pro stock class. Why bankrupt this class like the diesel superstock class.
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They bankrupted the class with the vague rules from day 1 September 10, 2011 06:40PM
A 10,000 dollar turbo from CDS, and an OEM Type head has yet to be clarified.
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Re: They bankrupted the class with the vague rules from day 1 September 10, 2011 11:57PM
You are absolutly correct.Is anyone running the new 10 grand Charger fom CDS . I know there are some larger than OEM cast heads out there
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Do what you want September 11, 2011 02:31AM
You guys do what you want....... I am still going tobust my butt so my guys can kick yours.
Becareful of what you wish for.
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Re: Do what you want September 11, 2011 02:33AM
Where is them junked Fendts; now that would be different around here.
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Reactive "fear-based" thinking will have its way... again September 11, 2011 11:51AM
Jake's idea seems logical and would be a smart thing to consider moving ahead in most (if not all) of the "hooded tractor" classes. However, we all know logic is scarcely found in this sport, and decisions are typically made reactively. This class, the Light Pro (not the Limited Pro) is a rare example of a proactive decision made by an organization. Kudos to the NTPA for forming it.Thumbs Up

The good news is this division will be fine if they do absolutely nothing. However, there are some enhancments that might make it better... and Jake's proposed head rule might be one.? If it's too early to consider a rule like this then I am in favor of leaving things "as is" until this class really gets going. No doubt, Curt F.... as usual, has some intelligent thoughts to consider.

This might be a smart thing to do... but it isn't a "feel good" rule (much like letting them run any head). Not a single person in the class that I've spoken to wants billet heads (in fact, most of them just cringed by me mentioning billet heads.Winking) However, they are ok with virtually any head that is cast/re-cast. A liberal OEM head rule just feels better to them than running those evil billet headsTougue Out. My guess is the same logic will be applied with the number of valves. We'll see.

Thanks to all you Light Pro pullers for putting on great shows this summer! Your class was AWESOME and I wish I could have made more events.
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Re: Reactive "fear-based" thinking will have its way... again September 11, 2011 01:46PM
I only have one question to ask on the head issue. Having been around some form of metal working for most of my life all I need to know is if you are in favor of allowing "recast" heads why not allow billet heads? Whoever is casting the heads can do anything while casting them that is possible with a billet. Heck, quite a few of the guys that are recasting them (or porting stock heads) use CNC equipment to do it anyway. They can be casted taller or with different ports just as easily as machined.

One of the benefits of a billet head is how easy they are to repair. Smash a valve through it. Just weld it up and machine that spot back down. Repair on a cast head is much more complicated.

All that being said I personally think that it should be stock OEM heads only. And the thought of an OEM 4 valve head is VERY interesting. I would love to see how that would shake out.
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Re: Reactive "fear-based" thinking will have its way... again September 11, 2011 01:50PM
Wayne you hit all the high spots for sure. Here's my thought and its already been said before: If it aint broke, dont fix it. The class has been able to run in basically one region (less travel) with a pretty good rule set (friendly for either building one or moving a PS down a notch) and with very good action (good wheel speed, wheels up, and rpm's---crowds love motion and noise). Keep the billets out (though I think they're not a huge issue, likely cheaper in the long run) and keep the 12V style motors as the engine of choice. However, that 24V 800lb gorilla in the corner of the room will have to be explored, and the question is simply who is gonna be the guinea pig on this deal.


Bryan Lively -

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24 valve = less color September 11, 2011 02:00PM
I have to think the variety of color in this class will dwindle over time if the 24 valve heads are allowed. What alternatives do the blue and orange tractors have? Allowing 24 valve heads does not help to include any additional colors than already can run with a 12 valve head. 24 valve heads will give certain brands an advantage I would think.

Don't ruin one of the best classes on the track. Keep it the same.
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Re: 24 valve = less color, HORSE APPLES! September 11, 2011 03:31PM
The 8.9 Litre Cummins has been used by everything but JD in the past 5-7 years. The Sisu 24 Valve motor is also available for anything in the AGCO line currently. Seems like that opens up a lot of color opportunities as opposed to just JD and Hyper motors.
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Re: 24 valve = less color, HORSE APPLES! September 12, 2011 12:32AM
Find another dragon to slay Buckeye. Put your 24 valve heads in the big pro stock class. Be a tough time making 8500 with these tractors anyway.
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Re: 24 valve = less color, HORSE APPLES! September 12, 2011 02:36PM
The question is, will the 24 valve head give those running it an advantage. If it does, which I suspect, you will limit the potential for numbers and color in the class.

If you believe the class was intended to draw 100% newly built vehicles, then this rule may fit. If you believe the class was intended to draw some of the pro stocks running on older set-ups and super farms looking for something more, then this rule will would definately be a step in the wrong direction.

Look at the tractors in the class and tell me which segment they come from, and you will come to the conclusion I stated above.

By the way Buckeye, which color head do you have sitting in the corner of your shop? cummins or deere?Grinning
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Re: 24 valve = less color, HORSE APPLES! September 12, 2011 03:12PM
A portion of the Light Pro class is already running an aftermarket head (either cast by Hypermax or some other company recasting heads). These aftermarket (recast) heads aren’t cheap and they aren’t OEM other than the fact you can bolt the OEM manifolds to them.

So will the true OEM 4-valve head outflow an aftermarket head? Yes? No? Anyone?

Do we really want to ban actual tractor heads, but allow custom heads?

The truth is that it’s not really a question of IF, but rather a question of WHEN! It’s only a matter of time until 4-valve heads are legal in tractor classes. You can drag your feet kicking and screaming into the future, but you can't stop it from coming, so we might as well just go gracefully. I know pulling has historically gone kicking and screaming or burying their heads in the sand and pretending the clock isn't moving, but it's time to plan for the future, it's coming sooner than we think.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: 24 valve = less color, HORSE APPLES! September 14, 2011 11:44AM
Leave the class alone it's the best class in ntpa since prostock years ago & they are just now getting the tractors & sled settings right & there is new tractors being built as we speak so dont make them change their game plan before they get them done as they already have parts for the rules now. Look at superfarm they have been useing the same rules for at least 10 years. LEAVE IT ALONE.
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Re: 24 valve = the future September 14, 2011 01:18PM
I agree that Light Pro Stock is one of the best class in the NTPA. I’ve been one of its strongest proponents/advocates since its inception. In fact, I’d argue that this page was one of the greatest advocates for the Light Pro class and its rules. I’m fine with leaving the class alone in the short-term, but these issues need to be discussed and addressed at some point. 4-Valve heads are the future of tractor classes and they are coming whether we like it or not, and they are coming sooner than some pullers think.

You don’t start planning for your child’s college education the day before classes start. You plan, you save, the child studies, the child works hard, and the plan is moved forward and discussed for some time until it comes to fruition.

Pulling needs a plan to address 4-valve heads now so we can establish a ruleset for the future. We can’t just bury our heads in the sand and pretend like everything in the world around us isn’t changing.

As for the adage “it ain’t broke don’t fix it”… if that’s how the world worked we still be pulling stone wheeled carts with donkeys. Technology is improving, tractors are changing, we’re already watching updated antiques in many classes, and while some parts are new some parts are from the 60’s!

The truth is, nobody's even sure if the 4-vavle heads will be an advantage, or if they will just provide pullers with an additional option (and potentially more color in the class).


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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What color? September 14, 2011 01:25PM
You are likely right about the long term future of the 24 valve head. However, theres not a color out there that cannot run with the current rule set. I respectfully disagree with that statement Jake.
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Re: What color? September 14, 2011 01:37PM
actually there are several manufactures left out, but who in the states are going to pursue one. One other hindrance is the lack of junked out tractors from these brands, why go thru the trouble or expense to r$d an off color with all the parts available to the "american" brands
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Re: What color? September 14, 2011 02:02PM
the problem with the 4 valve head on a deere is { not sure how the sisu or cummins heads are done } they are high pressure common rail fuel injection and will not except a bosch style injector without a whole bunch of machine work so are they gonna really be that much more economical than the recast heads? still say let the class alone for a while till it starts getting boreing. last i heard there are 33 promotors wanting this class for 2012 seems to me i'm not the only one who loves this class.
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Re: What color? September 14, 2011 01:56PM
Okay I have been reading this since it was started. I have been thinking about posting for a while but have stayed out as I have no dog in the fight but decided it's time to post. My opinion is that perhaps it's time to allow the 24v heads. I personally think that perhaps they should be allowed in all classes that are Limited to a Ag chassis and Stock Head. I know that these rules have been loosely regulated but perhaps it is also time to remove the gray area from the rulebook. My thought process is if the rule says stock that means it should have come on a tractor from the factory. I know my opinion will not be popular but insert saying about opinions. I agree with Jake about bringing pulling out of the sixties. That just doesn't mean heads it also means other technology including injection and other areas. I am probably opening a large can of worms but I think it is time to update.
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Hypocrites! September 15, 2011 04:16AM
All these people that are against the 24 valve heads seem a little bit hypocritical to me. You don't have a problem allowing a P-Pump with 13, 14, 15mm plungers in them with a sigma cam driving them. You don't have a problem allowing a $10,000 pro-stock charger, you don't have a problem allowing the aftermarket OEM Type Heads, you don't have a problem allowing billet injectors that are 5 x.035, But you have a HUGE problem allowing something that comes from the factory with 24 valves in your class?
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Re: Hypocrites! September 15, 2011 10:48AM
I completely agree, there should be no OEM parts that are illegal. I talked with my father about this on my way home today, it’s a little sad when you can pull a new tractor that’s bone stock in farm stock events but yet you can’t pull that same tractor in any “enhanced” classes. It just proves how upside-down and backward the rules are in this sport.

OEM parts should always be legal and aftermarket parts should have limits on them.


Jake Morgan
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Independent Pulling News


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Re: Hypocrites! September 16, 2011 01:26AM
not saying to completely disreguard a 4 valve per cylinder oem head in time but as for the next few years of the lite pro leave it alone for the time being & let the class alone for now as it is again the best class in the ntpa. Congrats to Adam Biehel on an awesome season & his points championship.
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Re: Hypocrites! September 16, 2011 02:11AM
Nascar is exactly the same way. Carbureted, 2-valve, pushrod V8, with no electronic controls anywhere in the powertrain or suspension (I think they look the other way on the MSD boxes, those are getting pretty advanced). And yet Nascar is at the pinnacle of circle track racing. They aren't trying to advance the technology of motorsports, they are trying to put on a good show and make a lot of money at it. I believe that's the same dilemma we face here, do we want to be stagnant for the sake of close competition, or do we let kids be kids and accept it when one kid is a prodigy and puts 100 feet on the rest of the class (with an electronic common rail 24v head, for instance)?
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Re: Hypocrites! September 16, 2011 05:39AM
24 valve heads in the light pro will do one of 2 things.
1. Make any tractor that doesn't have one uncompetitive, and if only certain makes and models can run them then those will be the only one that are competitive.It is all about air flow to make power
2. Make everybody without one of the chosen few models go buy a $20,000 billet head, another case of making everybody pay for a few whiners that want something different, just like components in the pro stock class, if you don't have one you are not competitive
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Re: Hypocrites! September 16, 2011 08:12AM
Apparently you have missed all the conversations were Nascar tech is looking into fuel injection. I would bet that within 5 years it is on the stock cars. So why should we wait for Nascar to do something before we consider it for pulling. If you always are a follower you can never become the leader of anything.
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more downside to allowing them currently September 16, 2011 10:23AM
NTPA has a goal of putting fans in the stands and running successful events with good numbers in the classes. This class has become the premier class in RN2 and other regions are also wanting to add it. Promoters are lining up for it. How would allowing 24 valve heads improve these areas? There is no one out there that is not buying a ticket because they arent running 24 valve heads. These competitors spent money and put a lot of hard work into getting this class going. Why would you step on their toes after the first year?

I know some of you are purists, but sometimes the big picture and common sense have to come into play. Maybe down the road a 24 valve head rule will make sense, but there are just too many reasons not to allow them at this time.
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Re: more downside to allowing them currently September 16, 2011 02:52PM
Well I've got a question for ya. If it made the agenda for the rules meeting how many guys had to speak up about it before it got there? Maybe some of these guys wanna play with the cummins and the agco motor just to see what they can do. Personally i am interested in that Siusu motor as it seems to be a good piece over in Europe.
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Need input from the truck guys September 12, 2011 05:36AM
Brian's 800lb gorilla has already been wrestled with in the Diesel truck classes. I must admit I haven't been paying attention lately but it seems to me that a few years ago the Diesel truck guys had better luck with the 12 valve head than the 24 valve head on the Cummins???? If that is indeed the case, are we really dealing with a non-issue?? Just asking the question...
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Re: Need input from the truck guys September 12, 2011 06:00AM
The 24v Cummins head (5.9/6.7) will marginally outflow the 12v head if both are "ported to the max". There are other factors with the 24v head that deter most people from using it over the 12v head - injector selection and valve spring selection to name a few.
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hipocrites September 15, 2011 12:55PM
put your 24 valve head in the tractor it came in not some 1964 oliver john or ih how manny would there be you can put a cat hood on a 40 cockshutt whos to talk about rules go buy a new enough tractor to use the 24 valve rear end and what kind of fair rules could say no
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Re: hipocrites September 15, 2011 11:28PM
thats what i think if you want 24 valve heads the engine should match rear end and sheet metal
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Re: hipocrites September 16, 2011 02:53AM
what is the difference if the sheet metal and rear match as long as they are the same brand, ih to ih or deere to deere, most sbjd run 4010 or 4020 rear with 7820 or other sheet metal, 966 ih rear with puma sheet metal, or mx sheet metal
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Re: hipocrites September 17, 2011 07:48AM
i believe most rule sets out there for ag style chassis state that the engine should be the onethat that trans rear end combo was originally equipped with or a factory bolt in replacement that will drop right in ie no adapter plates which is exactly what a 466 deere, 466ih, a cummins in a white/oliver or a 456 in a ford all do. as for all of u arguing for a sisu engine they do make a 12 valve version also just fyi.
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hipacrit September 16, 2011 06:13AM
what kind of rules lets you take a 1936 model f20 put in a414 ad a 1066 hood what have you got might as well be all conponet ih made one with turbin i want one except ill use w9 rear end stronger and 5488 hood painted white
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