10:12:48am, Saturday, May 18, 2024
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Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Mike Sandefur
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I want to warn my fellow pullers about LSM systems engineering. I have used them for several years to heat treat and grind camshafts. That being said i sent in a new round core from the same material that we have always made them out of and had a camshaft ground for a customer engine. I paid extra for their "fast, jump the line service". Not only did it take LSM systems engineering 4 months to finish the cam that i paid extra for It also came COD with no warning and about $300 over the quoted price. After only a few short test passes this cam developed deep wheel tracks rolled in the lobe surface, some where .030 deep. I called LSM and could never get in touch with Steve Lowe SR. Apparently he is the only one who can talk about getting anything worked on up there. I sent it to them and called every day for a 10 days before anyone would tell me they received my cam and then waited about a month while they were supposedly fixing the problem. Then i called every day for about a month trying to talk to Steve SR about what was taking so long to fix this cam when it was obviously not correctly hardened the first time. I left my number and messages so many times that all the reception ladies knew me by the sound of my voice and quit asking me to leave a message for Steve. I was always cordial with them and still believe that they did what they could do and the problem was higher up the ladder. Today , three months later I received a package COD from Fed ex. $682.33 to harden and regrind a cam that had only a few light runs on it. I immediately called LSM and asked why i was getting a COD for a cam that should have been covered under some sort of workmanship defect warranty. Imagine this....Steve Sr himself managed to make it to the phone to tell me that it was my fault and there was no way he was responsible or going to do anything to try and make this right. He even said to me "am i supposed to lose money grinding this cam for free?" I said yes i believe it to be your fault and you should fix it. He said that they tested it and it met all their specs for hardness. Then why did they harden and regrind it? Why did it fail the first time? I will never again recommend LSM to anyone or ever do business with them again. I urge all my fellow pullers to join me in this boycott. I dont feel like i can forward one dime of this cost on to my customer so i guess ill chock it up to a lesson learned. I hope that my friends can learn from my costly mistake in dealing with this company. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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I know
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exactly where i would deposit that camshaft
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Seems like these days, the bigger and "more successful" companies get, the customer service that got them there, falls away! |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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alright
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Did it ever occur to you that maybe the way you set up your timing might of been wrong and fked up the cam? |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Anonymous User
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I would question how his timing would have f'd that up? If the cam was out of time he would have seen some obvious damage to other components wouldn't he? I would think that pistons, valves, push rods or lifters would have seen damage. Or possibly a lobe or two on the cam would have been "knocked off" due to the interference?!?!?!
If you could enlighten some us who may not be for NASA employees, we would appreciate it. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Kip
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The damage described has absolutely nothing to do with timing. Brush up on your mechanical skills before u post |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 496 |
Do you even know who you are responding to with that comment. Look at some of their work and then make the comment that the cam timing was off and ruined a camshaft. Geez! JW |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Mike,
If your looking for a new supplier, I would like to invite you to give us a try. Your comments are exactly why I started my own business, making billet camshafts, regrinds for cams, sleeves, and other parts. Our goal is to give great service to industries that get little attention from the big companies. We can definately do better than 4 months and because we work with ISO companies, we have a quality system that should prevent your problem from happening. We are working on an inventory of billet cams to speed up delivery. We are not an engine builder. We are a company built to service engine builders and some do it yourself racers. We make billet camshafts, reground camshafts, engine sleeves, billet lifters, billet maincaps, and more. We have products for the tractors, as well as the trucks. I would invite you to look at our website, but it is under construction. If you or anyone would like some information just give me a call or email me, and will send some to you. Eric Staab No Limit MFG Phone: 715-384-4422 Email: nolimitmfg@yahoo.com |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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He may have meant cam lobe timing events, such as opening and closing rates on lobes. Not much use throwing good money after bad, just go somewhere else. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Call Bullet Racing Cams 662-893-5670. They will make the blank and send it ready to install. No ego's or B.S. Ask for Sonny Daniels. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Registered: 10/22/2011 Posts: 16 |
Yea Bullet only took 10 months for my last round lobe!!! Its tough getting anything done these days!!!! BTW no problems with Mike
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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BAP
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So LSM did not provide the core. You provided that! Could it be that the core was of inferior metal??? |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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puhleeese
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The dog ate my homework, I had a flat tire, my pet snake had an anxiety attack, blah, blah, blah. The piece was soft. Shouldn't have been sent out that way, whether it was the fault of the basemetal or the hardening process. It's called quality control. Another concept, lost to the business world these days, is called customer service. Abysmal failure on both counts. |
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Re: Beware of Mike Sandefur
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I would like to reply to Mike Sandefur's comments about LSM. Mike is not truthful and is disingenuous in his statements. His comments about me, my company and my assistants are simply false. I will address a couple of his false staments. LSM has never overcharged or charged a different price than what was quoted to Mike. His timelines are not correct. I always received his messages and my associate never said she would not give me any messages. Mike did not call everyday as we have records of every call that comes through our company. Mike was given status updates and it sometimes takes awhile for special projects to get through the system. The camshaft had wear marks, however they were not .030" deep. We ran his camshaft through the furnaces with many other camshafts and have had no issues with any other cams from that batch, leading us to conclude there may be a material issue with HIS core. We are always leary about processing other peoples cores because we cannot guarantee any cores other than LSM cores as we do not know the origin of the materials. I told Mike from the beginning that we were uncomfortable finishing a non LSM spool that had no material certs. We simply were not sure what grade it is, what material band it falls in, what the chemistry is, amongst many other things that are important to know to process correctly. Mike just told us it is 8620. Mike was aware of our concerns of processing non LSM material. I wanted him to use our cores but he refused. Our test coupons were certified good after the heat treat batch that his camshaft was part of. I did not put all of the blame on Mike. I told him we should split the cost and I would work with him on cost of the next camshaft. LSM has always done everything possible to accomadate our customers. When issues arise we do our best to resolve them. We have been in business since 1990 and have been very successful in not only making the worlds finest camshafts, best block machining, the finest billet blocks as well as many other things. We have satisfied customers all over the USA and around the world as well. LSM is on the cutting edge of technology with one of the most technically advanced manufacturing and engineering facilities serving all types of high performance and O.E.M. needs (website is lsmeng.com). We regret that Mike has taken this unwarranted negative action against my company and myself and regret him not working things out like a gentleman. As I mentioned earlier, his statments relative to me, my company and my assistants are untrue and slanderous. Thank you for reading. |
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Re: Beware of Mike Sandefur
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Registered: 03/13/2009 Posts: 220 |
Did you carburize the 8620 camshaft? 8620 will never harden sufficiently without carburizing it. The carbon content is too low. If you just ran it through a furnace with some other camshafts of different material, they may get hard if the material had a sufficient carbon content but the 8620 will not. 8620 has to be carburized and then heat treated |
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Re: Beware of Mike Sandefur
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Registered: 01/29/2011 Posts: 95 |
Mike
I ran into the same problems with Lsm cams and the tracking problems. It has been many years since i uesd them, so i cant remember all the problems. The story sounds similar except the money issues. Uesd their core. They machined the block and used their lifters and bushings. The lifters were good for about 10 runs then would break the rollers. Really they just were not heavy duity enough for our application. I would not blame them for all the issues. They just dont really make parts for our application needs |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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taking up for lsm, we have had custom cams with firing order swaps to us in as little as 48 hours and have no problems in ten yeas of using this company, if you don't trust the man your dealing with then don't use the service ,I don't tell the cam grinder how to build cams and he don't tell me how to build engines, but he does need to know all the reqirements the cam need to do to tell you what you need, so junk info in means you will probley have bad result! |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Cletus
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Sandefur - Here is a tip -deal with your business in private, take them to court if you feel so wronged but don't cry on the web. The shoe can easily be on the other foot and some dunce can come on here and tear you and your work apart with one side of a story. A lot of people subscribe to the "i sawed it on the interweb so it must be true" method of information gathering. LSM has a fine reputation among many major engine builders. Seems pretty apparent the issue was centered around your core. If I had one of your cam cores in my engine i'd be a little nervous now - Keep your dirty laundry off the net, it can come back to harm you. |
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yeah, but
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Anonymous User
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Spreading hate and discontent is what makes the net so popular!!!!!! |
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Re: yeah, but
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Wow
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Firing order swaps in 48 hrs vs 4 months on a single cam? Special projects take time you say? No mention of returning any messages, but you got them. Things that make go hmmmm! |
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Re: yeah, but
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Black Bart
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Two sides to every story. Say what you want on the web. Belive what you want that is on the web. |
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Re: yeah, but
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Peter T.
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I was just thinking of how funny it was that Mike received a response so quickly on the web, but couldn't with ma Bell. I would tend to side with Mike on this one. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Anonymous User
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I have used LSM for block work and it has always been excellent quality and timely. I have used them for cams and have never had any issues with tracking out of there cams and many are with well over a 1000# open pressures. Always made good power too. I have seen issues with several other cam manufacturers though, no matter how big the company was.
Bret |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Really? 1000lbs? Pretty funny that my Sprint Cup valve springs are only 560lbs. And they turn 9500 rpm all day. You have never seen anything close to 10k!!!!!! |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Anonymous User
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Actually, you apparently have no idea what is in pulling motors. My personal motor is a BBF 470" motor, it sees 92-9500 regularly and has seen more. I can guarantee the lift and valve sizes are far beyond what your sprint motor is and that is with a class limited OEM iron head. When/where was the last pull you were at?
Bret |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 27 |
1000 pounds at full lift may seem like a lot at first glance, but there are a lot of other factors in addition to rpm to consider. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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IH-SSD
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Your sprint motor does not run 100 to 300 psi of boost nore the horses beeing made. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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With a 2" valve @ 300 psi boost it would take 942 lbs of seat pressure just to keep the intake valve closed. MACK |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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4x4 Puller
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Your sprint car isn't opening the valves 1.25" at that RPM like the big injected engines in pulling are. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Bill everts
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Sprint car guy don't have a clue.Most N/A single carb super stock trucks are between 900 and 1200 lbs open.My truck runs between 9200 and 10,000 rpm and another truck I know of is consistently over 10,000 rpm.Sprint car guy don't have near the valvetrain weight to control.Sprint car guy is on the wrong forum! |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Anonymous User
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Sprint car guy,when you can make over 1200hp and 9500 rpm out of your springs and 358 cui motor N/A single carb,you can join in on the conversation.Funny sprint car guy,don't ya just wanna put him and his lil motor in your pocket and carry him around. REALLY what you running over 10,000 RPM? I think he said sprint cup I'm pretty sure that is a SB2 motor which will run about 850 to 900 hp out of the little tiny motor. Most sprint car motor are 410 that are around 1200 hp. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 08:28AM by mod 7. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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bill everts
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Sprint CUP guy,sorry for the confusion.So all are 358 cubes and make between 800 and 900 hp.Thats a long ways away from 1200 hp.Would like to see this 1200 hp N/A single carb [on gas] 410.There are DOZENS of trucks 530 cubes or less running 10000 rpm with well over 1100lb of spring pressure.Big block fords [with cast iron heads] and chevys on gas.Cup motors [built by real shops]make great hp per cube but no torque [600ftlb?].Put your cup motor in one of our trucks on a good track and watch it fall on its face.Like I said your motors tiny and it wouldn't compete well in truck pulling.Sorry guys,I just hate NASCAR.
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Registered: 12/31/2008 Posts: 101 |
Either way he should of answered the phone and worked with his customer to resolve the problem. LSM would of been better of to keep Mike as a customer by working with him. Mike if you say beware then OK man that's good enough for me. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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crawford stanley
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Sprint car guy,when you can make over 1200hp and 9500 rpm out of your springs and 358 cui motor N/A single carb,you can join in on the conversation.Funny sprint car guy,don't ya just wanna put him and his lil motor in your pocket and carry him around.
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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Thanks guys!! All it took was one BS post from me to get you guys to share info that you wouldn't tell your best bud in the tavern!!! Thanks again!! Now I know half of you that responded don't have a clue and just wish they could make 500 hp let alone the numbers thrown around in this thread. The other half passed the test!
Back to the main subject. When a builder tells you something he better do it!! If not, I'm done with em. LSM had more than one person complain which says to me, NEXT!!!!!! Thanks again, Rubes "Sprint Guy" |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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HEART BT
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Hey you got us! Dang your good.You received a WEALTH of info by tricking us into it. ROFL
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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I had the same problems with them. It took ten times longer then I was told and it still wasn't done so I picked it up and for the work that actually got done It was more than the quote when I asked questions they all just point fingers till you stop. Worst customer service I have ever encountered. I'm taking it somewhere else to get finished and i will have to get what they did double cheked because I don't trust them. |
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Re: Beware of LSM systems engineering
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out of parts
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I had the same problem,no words from Steve,person answering phone is nice,takes number but no Steve,no returned call,no response like the person answering phone says,no nothing,was told several weeks,now four mos.Proof is in the pudding !!!!!!!! |
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