components cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 02:14AM
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Love the class, however having a hard time believing the "2000 HP myth" ! Dyno parameters are a moving target at best . With that said the class is making excellent HP and a component chassis should be considered in the infancy instead of later. The mentality of the lower HP classes is that components are a bad thing, couldn't be farther from the truth. At 9500 lbs with the limited turbo charger rule 4.1 and small injection pump P-series this class won't see a competition benefit from a component chassis. Simply put they don't make the HP or torque to ! Now some will disagree and say that maybe some day they will but the fuel and air restrictions are too great. The class has great tractors and great competitors however the chassis , engine, fuel and air rules need to be set by the sanctioning body. Whoever that may be, please somebody step up and take the bull by the horns so to speak. Components are cheaper than cast at these HP levels and that's just a cold hard fact that some refuse to accept. Scrap the cast and start bending some pipe! This sport needs to expand into the future not keep retreating into the past with trying to legislate perceived economy into it! Sometimes "pullers" need to look farther down the tract than their own hoods. Good luck to this class I'am sure it will be a success ,........how much of one is the real question though.

hard to believe either of the 2 of you have ever built or sucessfully pulled a component or an ag rear, so how do you know the cost?

Re: components cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 02:47AM
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gas is 99 cents again
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Love the class, however having a hard time believing the "2000 HP myth" ! Dyno parameters are a moving target at best . With that said the class is making excellent HP and a component chassis should be considered in the infancy instead of later. The mentality of the lower HP classes is that components are a bad thing, couldn't be farther from the truth. At 9500 lbs with the limited turbo charger rule 4.1 and small injection pump P-series this class won't see a competition benefit from a component chassis. Simply put they don't make the HP or torque to ! Now some will disagree and say that maybe some day they will but the fuel and air restrictions are too great. The class has great tractors and great competitors however the chassis , engine, fuel and air rules need to be set by the sanctioning body. Whoever that may be, please somebody step up and take the bull by the horns so to speak. Components are cheaper than cast at these HP levels and that's just a cold hard fact that some refuse to accept. Scrap the cast and start bending some pipe! This sport needs to expand into the future not keep retreating into the past with trying to legislate perceived economy into it! Sometimes "pullers" need to look farther down the tract than their own hoods. Good luck to this class I'am sure it will be a success ,........how much of one is the real question though.

hard to believe either of the 2 of you have ever built or sucessfully pulled a component or an ag rear, so how do you know the cost?


What? Umean everything on this site isn't true? Confused

Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 03:41AM
Actually, I've help build a few component tractors. Go the photos page and look at Project Photos and you'll see pictures of a tractor that I helped design and build. I took most of the photos so there are only a couple of pictures of me, but you can see myself and Craig Smith bending some tubing for the roll cage. You can also see a few shots of Dick helping out on a cold Winter day.

I spent countless hour helping build that tractor and I know it inside and out, I still feel a connection to it when I see it pull.

So I have a pretty good idea how much work it takes and how much it cost to build not only the chassis, but the complete tractor.

So that's me... what exactly are your experiences?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 04:29AM
ag vs component chassis cost

I have never built an ag chassis rear end just purchased a roller.

But considering the full tube frame, cage, and tranny being equal. What is involved cost wise to make a 706 rear end a puller vs getting a rockwell housing and adding all the compentents to it to make it a puller? Just figure this for an 8000 lb class.

I am just having a hard time thinking the component will come out cheaper. Not that it isn't true just curious where the savings is gained?

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:04AM
Salvage yard cost (706) plus Profab carrier = a wash! However resale value is greater on a component so don't forget to look to the future. Eye Popping Didn't you just sell a ag rear roller?

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:20AM
A 38,000 Rockwell can be gotten pretty cheap at a junkyard, infact you can probably get it for the cost of scrap or cheaper. (the scrap cost for an empty tractor rear-end and transmission would be huge compared to a Rockwell) Planetaries can be found the same way, the planetaries on the Project Photos page were from a Trojan 204a loader. If you don't care about an aluminum center section you could probably leave the junkyard with all three for not much money. Engler and a host of other can make the necessary internal parts and axles at a reasonable cost. Rotors can be waterjet-ed or laser-ed from a local machine shop. If your're planing on running aluminum rotors and you were an extreme cheapskate you could make a pretty decent set with ordinary hand tools and it would only cost you the price of the aluminum. The entire rear-end could be built very reasonable.

The transmission only has to fit between the rails so really it could be just about anything, no need for a special Profab or SCS to fit an ag housing. No need to machine the housing to fit the transmission. Some great old mods used truck transmission with great success so that's also an option. With so many more options you have a bigger market to find cheap parts. Also there is no need for no custom gear sets to fit that ag housing.

Chevy or Hemi clutch cans are a dime a dozen from the car guys so that's not much cost either.

There's also about 1/10th as many fastners since the wheelie bars and hitch assembly are all welded to the chassis so not as many custom parts that must fit the ag bolt holes.

You have a bigger marketplace for parts and you have fewer custom tractor parts.

Sure you can spend a fortune on a componenet chassis, but you can spend a fortune on anything if you really want.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:39AM
what are actual numbers? (Not that what you wrote isnt true, but still just opinion, and I don't expect you to know these numbers right off the top of your head)

I have headed into alot of projects that seem they wont cost much, then a couple bucks here, couple more there, all DIY and from the scrap yards and you got 5k wrapped up into something. Even though on the surface it seems the project wont set you back much.

706 rear vs rockwell rear ready to go pulling cost? Even if comparing what a supplier would charge turn key for either what would just the rear ends cost?


Now granted resell down the road I would see the component as more valuable.

With so many hot farm, super farm, lim pro and other tractor classes out there right now it does seem the ag chassis does have many possibilities yet for value.


If you aren't going to do any of it yourself and just want turn key, 15k will go alot farther for an ag type chassis with tranny and sheet metal then it will for a component that is built properly for a class.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 06:45AM by AV.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:47AM
If you sold ur roller for 20K you could easily get a component for that,...... IF you do it yourself, now if you wanta turn key that's way different,...... because of a lil' thing called labor!

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:57AM
the ag chassis was turn key too, and came with sheet metal, tranny, dash, gauges, radiator, tanks - insert motor and tires and go pulling.

That 20k isnt going to get you very close to all that if comparing that to a component and doing it all yourself.


To me if I can get turn key ag chassis roller for 20k or with out rear tires, to me that is cheaper than me spending 20k on materials and doing it all myself and having a component. My time is worth something and with the ag chassis already done the time that I am not spending on the component I am now still out earning money offsetting that ag chassis purchase.

And in all reality a component built by me wouldnt be worth much to anyone else if I did sell just because I am not proven as a chassis builder. I know I wouldnt pay as much for a component built by me vs one from engler.


Now value is a whole different story and not being considered I was just considering initial out of pocket cost.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 07:08AM by AV.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:07AM
what value did u put on your sheetmetal?

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:13AM
never thought about breaking it down just had price for all to go.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:15AM
Just guessin that it would be a very small percentage of total roller value.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:20AM
does it matter? you can't run a component SS with out it.

The important part of any sale is that the buyer finds value in it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 07:22AM by AV.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:31AM
Did you have any trouble selling your ag roller? Was it built by a "known" builder? Why are cast pullers so hoodwinked on a component chassis? Have you ever seen one without sheetmetal or a engine it's really not that scary!

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:47AM
Had the roller listed for probably 3 months and it was gone. I think there were a few rollers or chassis minus motors and tires that were for sale too making a few options out there. There seems to be a number of guys building light pro and lim pro tractors. The rear was done by engler but I dont know who put the full frame on it. Mears or Roberts had that done.

I have seen components built and have been around many with the motor out and sheet metal off. You are right they aren't that intimidating but some people aren't into welding and machine work like some. I am one of those guys, I would rather be doing something else than building a chassis. I think one of my down falls in that department is that I don't have the patience. God bless the guys that do though.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 08:06AM
I agree some people like to just assemble bolts into pre-drilled cast holes, my point is that component's are way better from a builder's perspective . Seriously how can anyone favor building a castiron rearend/transmission setup over a component ? The word glutton for punishment comes to mind. It's really funny to hear the hysteria in pullers when you mention allowing components, uneducated people I guess.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:33AM
I have priced all the materials for a component LSS several times and if anyone thinks they can build a competive LSS component cheaper than an ag chassis they are very mistaken. I would say that by the time you are complete with both you will have aprox. double in the component. I am not bad mouthing either way but I KNOW that it is not even close in cost. I am also compairing top of the line in both examples, not a cast rearended component vs. the best in the ag chassis world.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 08:48AM
The Light class is a very different beast, you are paying for weight loss. As weight decreases prices rise exponentially. I'm pretty sure that a component chassis is substantially lighter than a cast chassis of equal strength, and therefore more expensive.

Keith Bontrager, an engineer, designer, and mountian bike pioneer coined a famous aphorism that applies very aptly to the Light Super Stock class:

Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick Two.

As you extrapolate any two of those out the third remaining variable decreases at an alarming rate.

To AV, as for actual numbers... they're not mine to give. It wasn't my tractor and I'm not comfortable giving them out in a public forum. It's also a little like real estate, and location and availability play a huge part.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 09:35AM
I can appreciate not giving out someone else's numbers on a tractor you helped build.

Wasn't trying to direct the question at just you, sorry if it seemed that way. Was hoping someone had a few projects going and could add to the discussion and help expel some doubt.

Had to find a 34,000 Rockwell and seems they are a little harder to find and I definitely know what you mean when it comes to the weight savings in relation to cost. The housing is just the tip of the iceberg.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 11:30AM
I am not familiar with the 4.1 Prostock class but up here I run in a class that is a 7000lb pound Prostock we allow alcohol and diesel for fuel .

Now that we have allowed them a new component is in my plans for the future.

I sat down with pen and paper one day and figured I could build a competitive tractor for the class as a component for 30 k. That figure that I came to doesn't have magnesium planetaries or billet aluminum carriers but as Jake stated out board planetaries are reasonably priced and you'd be surprised what you can find. We were able to purchase 3 complete sets with aluminum stock housings very reasonably priced you just have to know their applications. A 38 k Rockwell can be found very easy and the ratios are endless.Obviously the building would be done by us as well.

Just saying that we have a ag type tractor in the same class as well and we have more in that tractor than we figure for a component.

Just my 02 cents.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 02:18PM
May I ask what in your current chassis required the extra cost vs the new one you have planned? Best of luck on your new project.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 12:07AM
I don't think in our case that a component is a necessity as we are not making the horsepower that will out surpass the ag chassis. The reason I like components is the ease of working on them .I could drop my clutch in 15 mins with a component as apposed to 3 hrs with splitting stands on my current tractor. I would have a approved bell housing 6.2 or 6.3 with rotational pins that will contain that clutch 360 degrees and will not expire provided it doesn't receive a blowup. Gear ratio's can be easily changed in the rear if needed and now I would have a chassis that can change with me down the road if I ever decide go into another division.

I look at the cost in this way as this example. I had a puller tell me about the trouble he had one weekend grinding the inside of his ag transmission so he could fit in a new profab box. That is eliminated with a component and now the structure holding that box is is your frame, tube or channel.

I get it with the purists who want to keep the tractor stock ag in construction but for me unless one of the ag companies want to pay for me to run their brand I want something that makes my life easier.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 12:33AM
I have built two JD ag chassis for super farm and two component wedge chassis for Super Stock. The ag chassis was less expensive than Component. But like someone posted earlier, depends on how high tech you want to go. Ex... Billet diff, mag planatries, micro master cylinders, engler brake calipers, SCS 3 speed gear box, 2" DOM tube or 1 1/2" chrome moly, steel wedge "C" channel, Clutch can or blanket, aluminum center section, and the list goes on !!!!!!! I would get about $30k in a chassis with stock type sheet metal and no rear tires and rims. That include all drive line parts, engine mounts and Pro bell clutch can. That was using mostly the less expensive parts.

AV ---You are right about who built the component chassis when its time to sell !!!!! It's hard to sell a componet chassis that was ran on the track for a few years and was built by a no named builder, unless it won a championship. Been there !!

Yes the cost of a component is a little more, but you will enjoy working on the component alot better. It's great to be able to adjust the clutch without lying on your back !!! Good Luck with your new tractor. You will be happier with the component than the old cast ag chassis.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:25AM
Magnesium planetaries vs weld on hubs = not a wash. Resale future is bright for both styles of chassisWinking

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:35AM
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More
Magnesium planetaries vs weld on hubs = not a wash. Resale future is bright for both styles of chassisWinking

Franklin 4:1 CAST planets are cheap.....compare apples to apples there driver! 2 chassis for sale 1 in ag cast the other is component both equal in asking price whose future is brighter? Me wearing shades Cool waiting on that answer!!!!

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:06AM
That's easy! Cast. Much bigger market and most component lookers are high end buyers

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:10AM
Back to school young'n ......why are you sayn high end buyers?Confused Are you more comfortable working with cast, maybe you need to broaden your area of expertise?Drinking

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:28AM
High HP = high dollars spent = high end user= not going to buy cheap planetaries or salvage yard eaton

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:34AM
So are you saying the 4.1 Lim-Pro is a low HP class?Tougue Out

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:43AM
No but it is still within the limits of cast. And 4.1 owners won't bother with a cheap component chassis either

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 07:53AM
So it's a high HP class with low HP chassis's full of primma donna's? Eye Rolling

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 06:26AM
yeah it went south for the winter

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 01:19PM
I have built plenty of both tractors in various setups. You can not build a component as cheap as a cast tractor. Assuming you r building both yourself, the component still costs more. U need a lot of tools to build the chassis. Just the line up tools to jig up the rear are expensive. Mill lathe welder bender raw materials all adds up. shure you can use the tools again but u need them to build the component. If not all the machine work and welding would be to expensive
A good example on cast tractor cost is buying the parts from haslag.
Binderlite hood 3000
Cast rear and trans 1500
Hubs 250

Haslag parts
Tube front frame 4600
Fenders 400
Hitch 500
Cage assembly 1500
Aprox 1000 of other parts u can buy from them
So for aprox 13000 you can bolt together something resembling a tractor in a weekend. No its not done or ready to go but its a long way towards getting it done Try that with a component

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 01:24PM
Don't think they where talking about a t04 tractor!

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 04:51PM
Quote
$=hp
Don't think they where talking about a t04 tractor!

HP=$

Not the other way around

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 01:53PM
I've assumed the builder would have basic welding skills and basic machining knowledge. If building 100% from scratch tooling costs would be identical for either chassis. Yes, you can build expensive jigs, but with some serious thought you can also build very cheap and accurate jigs to put a rear-end together. If you can weld the framerails and machine some scraps you should be able to weld a simple jig together.

My original post on the 4.1 Limited Pro Stock thread that started all this discussion was regarding a high performance stock chassis. Something that could handle +2000 HP. What would need to be done to a stock rear and trans to take that power?

What are the costs for a Rockwell housing, center section, and cast planetaries?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 02:42PM
Leave whats left of the real tractors alone or outlaw all tractors.And start log skidder classes if ih jd ac wanted to build conponets they would have they didnt must not have been cheaper

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 02:44PM
amen buddy

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 21, 2012 03:21PM
I agree that there are more than enough component classes right now. I like the component classes that are currently out there, but I don't think we need any more. (At least not now... in the somewhat distant future when CVT's are the norm... well we'll see)

I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree about chassis cost. I know of at least one component that was minimal cost, maximal manhours.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 02:12AM
All cast rear only classes must have operational 3-point lift system and one power take off shaft fully functional..................bahahahaha. This rule is for "570" and" Sully" the 2 best cast class fans inthe world!!! Grinning

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 04:20AM
I have just one ? For sully/570. When ur sitting in the stands what kind of glasses do u wear that makes that cast stand out to you? My guess is ur watching the firestone,firestone,firestone class, so they must be rose colored!

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 08:25AM
A puller who who always has top notch stuff will be able to have a component cheaper than a cast chassis. Pullers who are pulling beyond there means but still think they should be on the top will never be able to relize that componets are not as expensive, because they will never have enough money for the initial purchase. Yet they will spend even more over time on their cast set-up trying to keep up with modern technology.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 09:28AM
no i am watching T-bone or carrosels old 6030 lay the law down! I have nothing against them and as i said in a earlier post you the component chassy is obviously proven itself. i simply feel we dont need any in the lim pro.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 01:08PM
I would like to know who the crybaby loser or losers are that think they can bring their Pro Stock tractors that can't beat anybody to the Limited Pro Stock class if they were allowed to run their already built component chasis.

Re: Yes, components can be cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 03:05PM
Bottom line is that not everyone has the resources or ability to build their own component chassis, at least one that will hook effectively . Right now it is very easy to go to a number of vendors buy bolt on parts and put an ag chassis tractor together with very little machine work and welding expertice needed. To get a component chassis from a repuitible chassis builder right now I understand is quite a lengthy waiting list. It was easy for me to put together an ag chassis lps tractor together,I just called these vendors up ,ordered the parts and put the tractor together. Took about 8 months of after work and weekend sessions. Been pulling with this tractor for 4 years with no problems.

Re: components cheaper than ag rearends. January 22, 2012 04:18PM
Gee whiz. A man steps away from the page for two days (I knew I'd regret leaving the laptop at home) and all hell breaks loose.

Dear Jake: brother, friend: you're right, and you're wrong. But honestly, this is all apples vs. oranges going on here to me.

Basic parameters here: If you're above 2500hp and/or weigh less than 7500lbs, Component is the cost-effective choice LONG TERM.

Under 2500hp and above 7500 (with a rear end and tranny housing that hasn't had it's structure corrupted) Cast is perfectly acceptable in the long term, cost-wise.

We have two classes that need a component chassis at opposite ends of the spectrum. LSS and PS. LSS is fighting to get as much weight on the nose as possible. A puller recently remarked to a group I was in that he would have never dreamed that a 1000lbs on the nose wasn't enough because of the advances in tires and chassis. Builders are getting very creative in their efforts to get rid of weight on the back end and put it on the nose, and the cast chassis would soon be compromised beyond its limits.

PS is a mass/torque issue, but I do not believe that a cast rear is obsolete yet in PS.

Both of these classes have a class similar to them but have a distinct difference. For PS of course it's LPS 4.1; LSS its LLSS. Unless LPS finds the holy grail of torque with their current specs---not saying they're slouches---and with slightly less mass, they don't need a component chassis. LLSS doesnt need them either, their power level will need to jump substantially also to warrant a chassis change. Remember most LLSS began life in LSS and have had in some cases over 1000 hp removed from the chassis.

Of course none of what I have said is gospel just observation. Each chassis has their place in this sport and getting snarky (which I confess I do sometimes, see above) to an extreme about this stuff is unnecessary. Im sure there's some way to extrapolate into a graph the risk/reward on this deal but honestly I'm not smart enough nor do I have the time to find that "sweet spot" where there is no grey area, where one philosophy ends and another begins economically. Stuff breaks, no matter what it's made of. It's just up to the end user to examine their rule set and let their conscience (and their checkbook) be their guide.



Bryan Lively -

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