02:04:10pm, Sunday, May 19, 2024
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Sleds
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Tractor race
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Just wondering what some thoughts were on the sleds we pull these days. To me it is a totally diff ballgame from the big dogs to the hot farm classes. We pull some sleds around here in the hot farm class 3000 rpm 8500 466 3lm turbo. Sleds these days are sitting behind alot of high powered machines these days and we can't pull like they do. When it going down the track 12 to 20 mph and the pan slams down and the bars dig in your done. So if there's 10 tractors in the class they r all within 2 ft or each other and the 1 that went .5 mph faster is the winner. There is no lugging these days. It's all about speed. What's other pullers think? What's it like in your area/ association ? |
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Re: Sleds
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Speaker
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That's how they're all getting. Talk to someone in charge and tell them to tell the sled operator to turn the pushdown off for your class. It's not the pan dropping thats killing you, or the bars under it, its when the pushdown kicks on you all pile up in one spot. That will make it like the old days of pulling if thats what your class wants. |
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Re: Sleds
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Pushdown
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What do you mean by pushdowns? What exactly happens? |
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Re: Sleds
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Anonymous User
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ill try to explain this as simple as i know how to, first off sleds are very complicated! people just think that when they move forward that the wheels turn and that drives the box forwards and makes it harder and harder to pull, which is true but theres soooo much more! when the box tops off on a sled today there are switches and air clutches and about 20 other things happen to disengage the transmission thats moving the box forward so it don't break the box drive chains. what this person is talking about when they are talking about the push down on a sled is when the box is about all the way forward on a sled it flips some micro switches that drops the back of the pan on the ground (if you watch a pull, only the front half of the pan is touching the track when the sled leaves the line, which make it easy to pull) once the box is all the way forward it hits some more micro switches that pushes down the back of the pan into the ground picking the back wheels of the sled off the ground. when the push down comes on all the weight of the sled is on the pan and really pushes the back of the pan down in the ground. The felling these guys get when they say they get nailed at the end is because the back half of the pan on all pulling sled has bars. when the push down comes on it push those bars into the dirt...... and you stop!!! FAST! lol. Now im sure i probably messed up somewhere explaining how a tractor pulling sled works, and all sleds are different but this is what i usually tell people when they come up to me at a pull. I know most farm stock or antique pulls dont even use the bush down on the sled. they can put pins in that holds up the back of the pan so it dont come down. that or they have the back of the pan come down but the bush down dont come on to bush it into the ground. hope this bit of info helps ya out. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 11:25AM by headtechofficial. |
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Re: Sleds
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Anonymous User
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The sleds have to have the bars to stop high power fast moving tractors. One of the guys we pull against is turning the tires 100mph when he gets hooked in the sled has to have this to stop him. A few years back at a pull in Wi., the sled did not work right the tractor driver did a great job, but sled still hit the tractor cut a tire bad and did some minor damage to the tractor. The whole thing could have been much worse. Without the bars digging in the tractor was over 30 mph at 300 feet didn't get it stopped till past 400 feet and the sled pushed the tractor the last 20 or 30 feet. The better sleds or I should say sled operators know what it will take to make a good show and can control the way the sled stops the tractor. |
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Re: Sleds
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I agree the sled operator has lot to do with sled set up. I have noticed that lots of tracks in Mn and western Wi seem to be too dry. I think that better job of preparing track would help. I properly built track would allow tractor that are built to lug preform in my opinion better. Great discussion. |
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Re: Sleds
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It's like that around here too, except the pan drops even with slower speeds, say less than 6 mph. It's rediculous because this sled doesn't have to be set that way. So everyone is within a foot or so in those classes. I say it doesn't have to be that way because a few times in those heavier classes some tractors were able to lug it out those last 25-50 feet. Another sled in the area works the best for both the slower classes and the faster ones. I'm not sure if it has the grousers on it or not. But it works great with the right operator. For instance, for a 5500 pound farm class, the pan doesn't need to drop at all, the front weighs enough to stop them. But for a 7500 open farm class, the pan should come down to stop the turbo'd 4020s and such. When you get to 9500 in a farm class, set the pan to drop, but have it drop within the first 100 feet or so in order to still make the sled easy to start. With the pan down that soon, the box shouldn't need to come up as fast. This setting provides the lugging type of pulling on the guys that are still running close to stock, which provides a better show for that type of class. Then when 9500 open starts, just change the sled back to a later pan drop and a faster box speed to stop the hopped up 1066s and the Deeres. |
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Re: Sleds
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tractor race
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I agree with you Oliver, but if its that easy then why do the sled guys do it to the slower classes? Are they just lazy, or they dont care if the slower guys put on a good show? How hard is it to change a setting on a sled? We have one sled guy in our area that is really good about making it fair for every class no matter if its a slow tractor or a high powered one, and the other 2 or 3 we pull just stop us all right togther. Its not fun for the puller and deff not fun for the crowd. What gets the crowd going is when a tractor that may not win all the time or has the most money dumped into thier rig ends up in the #1 spot because they had it weighted right, hit the right spot on the track etc. not because they were flyin down the track 5 mph faster like money bags does. |
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Re: Sleds
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Northeast puller
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I pull the same sled at different tracks in the Northeast. The sled setting seems to be determined by the operators mood. This sled always starts hard and comes down on you hard. I have seen drivers in the light farm classes getting slammed against the steering wheel at the end. Some places have not had this sled back. I like the Decision Maker,the Bushwaker sled and the sled from Vermont. They let you get a nice start and a gradual stop. I think the out dated sleds are the worst. They have to improvise to stop the high Hp. tractors and that hurts the rest. |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 07/14/2011 Posts: 59 |
Hi, I've been around pulling since the mid '70's, mostly as a spectator and photographer, and I would agree that I don't like they way sleds are set up now-a-days. Last year I was at a local pull (state level organization) and for almost every class the sled dropped the back of the pan, lifted the rear wheels up and stopped almost all the tractors within 5-10 feet of each other. I was very disappointed. If that's the way it is going to be done, they might as well start the sled at the 275 ft mark with the weight box all the way forward and the pan dropped, and then just bring the tractors out and let them see if they can move it another 5-10 feet and call it a day. Now, I realise that it is very difficult to make a single sled that works for all classes, but I prefer a more linear resistance done with weight and box speed. Tractor pulling vs tractor racing; I prefer tractor pulling. Later ....... |
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Re: Sleds
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Time is one reason I've heard of the operators doing it like that. They might want to go home early. Between that and fewer tractors around pulling at some places, it's becoming rarer to get home from a pull after midnight, when years ago it was the norm to not get back from some pulls until 2 or 3 a.m.
The other reason they might set the sleds like that is there might be another event coming in afterward if it's an afternoon pull. I've heard of that happening before because a demo derby (ugh...don't get me started on those) was running that evening. There wasn't a tractor that made it past 200 feet until they got into 9500. That's not doing the spectators or pullers and justice. The funny thing was, the pull was done long before (3-4 hours) the derby was in any danger of postponement. Additionally, has anyone else noticed the lack of adding weight to the box on sleds at local pulls? I can't remember the last time I saw weight added to the box at an unsanctioned pull. That could be part of the problem too. If weight was added to the box, you might not need to rely on all the push downs and drop pans as much and consequently, put on a better show. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 06:31AM by Oliver1655. |
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Re: Sleds
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4250
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I've been to pulls with 18 classes from antiques to semis with over 200 hooks and when the promoter has to be done at midnight or the cops are coming to shut it down. Classes start at 6:30 pm where they run heavy to light heavy to light all night but it's always the sleds fault it wasn't perfect for every class. Maybe try less classes and less up and down. Check with the promoters to see what they wanted. Maybe it isn't the sleds fault. |
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Re: Sleds
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one thing
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one thing to consider is that most of the newer sleds don't have much flexibility in their box speeds. they run the 5 speed pro fab transmission, but only about 10 feet of difference between each gear. low gear still tops the box out before 300 feet. to drop the pan sooner and let them "pull", they would need to slow the box way down from that for some classes. just not a lot of flexibility built into the newer sleds, they've gone for durability which I understand. |
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Re: Sleds
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midwest puller
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Tractor pulling is all about speed! who every can get the sled moving on the starting line will pull it the farthest at the other end. every sled is diffrent. if they didnt nail ya at the end they would have to have the sled set heavy so they could stop ya and you would never get any ground speed!
Its easy: nail ya at the end and let you get a good amount of ground speed and have a fun pull! OR set the sled really heavy and you have to lug the dam sled the whole way down the track and get no speed! boring! |
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Re: Sleds
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OK
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Go to Pullingworld.com, The European sleds seam to let the pullers go and they don't seem to hammer them at the end. the back wheels of the sled aren't dangling in the air either. even on the indoor tracks pullers seem to get moveing good before they stop them. I thought the sled association had a rule about how high the wheels come off the ground, I've seen the front wheels on some sleds high enough you could almost slide a 6x6 under them. |
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Re: Sleds
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challenger
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Profab is building a prototype gearbox for both of the crouse sleds to top the box with 15 gears. Similar to the box he had in the oj 4x4 but on steroids. Should work well . |
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Re: Sleds
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abner
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Not having much split between gears on the sled is yet another great reason for adding WEIGHT. Years ago, before what's now called tractor pulling became an aborted derivation of drag racing, it was commonplace for weight to be added between every other if not between every class. Nowadays, you may see weight added once during the entire show. While I will agree that light, high horsepower tractors that have to rely upon ground speed need an easy starting and easy pulling sled to put on their particular version of the show, a sled set in this manner will be the death of slower, heavier, lower power classes. And before you crank up the "tractor pulling is all about speed" and the "nobody cares about slow heavy classes" soundtrack, you are dead wrong. There are plenty of people out there who like to see a tractor WORK, an old school tractor pull, in other words. One that is decided by weight placement, reading the track, paying attention, and knowing what you are doing, as opposed to which trust fund baby spent the most of his inheritance over the winter. The sled operators, however, are not to blame for this, at least not in most instances. Sure, there are occasions where they are just trying to get the show over with or they just plain miss their settings, but all are capable and most are willing to make or adjust their settings to whatever the promoter or class wants. Now we come to the real problem - what does the promoter or class want? Especially with regard to the aforementioned heavier, lower power classes where there usually exists more than one mindset and exponentially more opinions. The big money guys will want a drag race so their checkbook will be sure to put them out front, where the old school crowd is going to want a heavy, hard starting sled with no pan drop/pushdown that will make the event more of a chess game, leaving the sled operator stuck in the middle. Which sled the class ends up pulling usually boils down to politics. |
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Perfectly stated
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Well said, abner. I, and I'm sure there are plenty of other that feel the same way, love it when the underdog wins with far less horsepower and money against the high dollar machines. That's not to say everyone that spends a bunch on their tractor is dumb. It's just a statement that it's a greater accomplishment to win with less power, as long as the sled settings allow it. But with the sleds set on kill like that, you don't see it as much these days. In the old days, I remember watching as a kid the perfect example at a local fair. It wasn't much of a class with only two or three tractors, but I recall seeing a 9600 Ford blowing fire down the track but only got 250 feet or so because it didn't hook up to the track. But then a 90-hp Oliver 1755 walked it out the end at a snails pace for the win. Once in a while, brains and hard work can beat a checkbook. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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abner
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Brains and hard work can easily beat a checkbook on a level playing field, and the checkbooks know this. Fortunately for them, the checkbooks also know that politics care infinitely more about checkbooks than brains and hard work. Not necessary for either party to know any more than that, sadly enough. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 496 |
Boy, I am not sure where you guys are watching these pulls to say the the transfer machine doesn't get reset between classes (when needed to). I attend mostly NTPA state, region and Grand National events and the operators (Nearpass, Singer, Bauer, etc) do a fine job with settings. And normally between classes, there is always a weight block change (a time consuming task where fans get restless). I don't notice drivers getting hit in the nose with steering wheels and such and this is from a perspective as a driver, flagman, and spectator. There is a place for lugging transfer machines down the track--at antique and farm stock county fairs. Modern day tractor pulling is still about reading tracks, weight placement and putting the power to the ground and there is a lot more horsepower in today's modern pulling machines. If the show wasn't popular with the fans of today, don't worry, it would be changed.If you don't like aparticular kind of pulling, put up the money and build a sled and promote slow lugging type events. I don't think they will be very popular on the long term. Today's modern transfer machines are a lot more complicated than the one poster said about different speed combinations. There are many more than 5 or 6 speeds. A modern sled can stop a vehicle at box top in as little as about 90 feet and as far away as about 6-700 feet. Transfer machine operators can make and break a show, I will grant you that. JW |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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I was talking about more local type, fair pulls. But at national levels, it's not the weight changes or the settings, it's just the nature of the physics behind the sled. It jerks everyone, from what I've gathered in talking to a few pullers in those classes. But the class that stands out to me is the Super Farm class. I'm all for a tight, competitive class as much as anyone. But it's how they get to that result. It bores me to death watching 65 of those 72 at BG race down there only to snuff out. This class is a perfect example for needing a different setup on the sled. A 15-20 year old sled design (in terms of how the pan drops) would be perfect for this class. It won't happen, but I'd like to see one session with the same sled as before, but try the next session with a sled that drops sooner with the box not topped out or one that doesn't have grousers on the pan. The other classes don't suffer from this as much, so I'm not counting on seeing these events try to cater to one class. But, if they are looking for a better show, it's something to look into. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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abner
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I will wholeheartedly agree, and further state that this is the case because these sled operators, besides being highly professional, hook these same tractors numerous times at numerous events over the course of a season and have their settings optimized for this level of competition. However, I believe the OP was calling into question applying these same settings or theory of operation to, for example, the local out of field class that may happen after the big show is over and you are probably on your way home. If a lugging show ain't your thing, that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. I disagree, however, with your assessment of the lugging show's popularity and longevity, as that brand of tractor pulling has been around since there have been tractors to pull, and continues today, just maybe not in the mainstream. Funny though, I don't see near as many people packing the grandstands today to see "mainstream" tractor pulling. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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One reason for less people attending is easy to find. There are less farmers today, therefore less people that have a connection to tractors and pulling. When the stands are packed, the majority consists of people that just want to see some smoke fly and couldn't tell you the difference between a suitcase weight and a wheel weight. |
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Re:sleds
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Anonymous User
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has it been considered have the tracks have changed from years ago |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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Pullinfan4255
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Boy do I have one hell of a deal for you all!!!!! I will trade you even up...all of those "drag race" sleds for the OL busch sled. That is obviously what you are looking for, hard starting, hard pulling, no speed! God forbid if a tractor might actually gain some speed up to out run your M farmall. Or maybe even bring back the step on sled and pace tractor? The basic principals of pulling are still there. Read the track, place the weight, get hooked into the track and you will be right in there. It sounds to me like some of you have not been doing your homework and have been getting beat and just want to cry that it is because of the sled that you can't win. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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I never said anything about a step on sled, and who said anything about whining when you can't win? Everybody pulls the same sled, I was just stating my preference of what I'd like to see. Will it stop me from coming out to pull? No. I do my homework every time out and know what my tractor will do at certain tracks with certain tires at a certain weight. All I'm saying is that a sled designed to stop Unlimited and Super Stocks should be used for those type of classes. When used with lower horsepower classes, they detract from the show because they don't have the flexibility to run that range of classes. Some sleds have broader ranges of classes than others, but it comes down to how the operator sets the sled with box speed, pan drop and box weight.
I enjoy the high horsepower ag tractor classes as much as anyone, but believe it or not, there are those of us that pull other classes that don't get all the attention. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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Tractor race
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Very well said Oliver once again. For all you guys talking about ntpa they r a total differnt deal than the lower up tractors as Oliver said. For the small organizations that still have the little more than stock tractors we still pack the stands there are still plenty of fans and pullers out there that enjoy the local pulls. What makes it not enjoyable for fans and pullers is when the sleds stops every1 in the class at a dead hault. |
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Re: Perfectly stated
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Registered: 07/14/2011 Posts: 59 |
Hi, Getting back to the spirit of the original post, I would very much prefer to see a sled that starts easy and stops the tractors with weight and not a pan drop. Some of the postings lead me to believe that a sled has to either start easy and need a pan drop, or start and pull too hard to make a decent show. To that I say, I don't believe it. The physics are pretty simple: you have a point of contact (pan) and a pivot point (rear wheels) tied together with a long lever (box rails). If you put the weight over (or even behind) the wheels, the pan is light enough to get moving easily. Then, as the weight moves up the rails, the pressure on the pan increases until it is too heavy to pull any further. To me, slamming the back of the pan down to stop a tractor seems like a desperate measure. It's like admitting that the sled can't do it's job without tossing out an anchor at the 250 foot mark. Now, I understand it is not that easy to build a single sled that will do this for all the different classes. And, I also understand it is less expensive to bring one sled to a pull, rather than two or three. But, maybe the sledbuilders of the world could put a little more effort into designing a sled that only needs a pan drop for the most powerful classes? Or I could be way off base on that and the builders do try to make 'em that way but it is much easier said than done. If so, so be it. I'll still be going to the pulls because I am a big fan. And, I'll just have to remember not to look at the sled to see if the wheels are off the ground... 
ps Maybe they could come up with a more progressive application of the push down, instead of all at once...? pss Go Orange! And remember, if you're having trouble keeping your front end up, see Allis! 
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 02/09/2010 Posts: 237 |
I have seen the Terminator sled pull the big boys at 20+ mph, and still have a good show with tractors weighing 5500 pounds with less than 100 hp. Perhaps that sled is set up to be more adjustable, but my guess is that it comes down to the operator- skills, experience, and the desire to take the effort to do it right. |
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Re: Sleds
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TRACTOR RACE
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Perhaps that sled is set up to be more adjustable, but my guess is that it comes down to the operator- skills, experience, and the desire to take the effort to do it right.
I think that is what it bolis down to. the sleds are capable in most cases and it can be done, its just whether the sled operator has the no how or effort to make it right in the class that maybe he doesnt prefer to see so he thinks other ppl doesnt either. A good example in our area is the red rock sled. He seems to do it perfectly with every class. Ive seen non-turbo 5500 pd tractors pull it without a problem and it be a good show, 20 ft in between 1st aNand last. Then 4 classes later the 4.1 lim pro will back up to the sled and it will be the smae case. Very good sled and operator. I wish we could pull that sled at every event! Good job Gary |
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Re: Sleds
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Anonymous User
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While i am just a fan,i like the speed that they get,but like most real fans would like to see less "Bam....Gotcha" ( thats what the announcer would say each time the pan dropped and the tractor - truck stopped with todays sleds..I'd like to see a little lugging at say the last 15-20 feet of the run..I don't mean drive shaft twisting,clutch slipping lugging or anything hard on the tractor or truck,just enough to make them grunt a little..I am talking about PS,SS or Mod tractors of todays standard as well as the smaller County fair local club tractors..Thats just this long time fan's 2 cent's..
I remember back several years ago one Ohio sled operator would add 2 foot sections of railroad iron to the pan for heavier classes or pull offs..If i remember correct,this sled's weight box was solid weight with no way of adding weight to it..This was a nice sled until the late 80's - early 90's when the box drive broke and the box flew to the front and twisted the rails beyond repair..Luckily the stops were strong and kept the box from falling off..The sled was kind of heavy to start,but i only remember 1 time that any class had problems starting it..That was on a rain soaked track the starting line and sled staging area was really soft..They solved the problem by moving the starting line forward about 50 feet or so..Worked fine then and everyone was happy..I pulled the sled a couple times in the stock 4wd class,i would say starting that sled was about like pulling a 300 bushel wagon out of a field which i did a lot of ... |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 01/19/2010 Posts: 136 |
anybody know where to find some video of the old step on sled my grandpa talks of those days would love to watch a little footage. |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 12/19/2008 Posts: 90 |
In southern missouri we still use one of the old type sleds. Does a pretty good job. We do not add wieght at all, just change gears in 9 different classes, from 6500 hot stock tractors, to 9500 pro-field, pro stock trucks, and diesel trucks. Seems to stop them pretty well, takes off easy, has no pan drop, and can still run 20 to 25 mph. There is video of it on youtube under smttpa pulling. |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
My opinion is that the speed sleds make a 2 speed or TA a requirement in the lower HP classes. A D21 or 4010 doesn't have a chance against a 4430 or IH. |
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Re: Sleds
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Pulling Fan!!!
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Hey ford8000al, not to bash you, but that is not OLD TIME pulling. Old time is when the sled was a straight piece of steel or planks, and the usually men would stand about 10 feet apart from each other on both sides of the track. As the tractor and sled would pass the guys standing on the side, the men would jump on the sled. For the bigger more powerful tractors, they would put a lite tractor on the skid in addition to the guys jumping on. That was old school tractor pulling. Thanks |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 12/19/2008 Posts: 90 |
I know its not the old time pulling, I used to watch that as a kid, the old walk on sleds. But this sled is like the old STACO sleds. |
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Re: Sleds
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pan drop
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That sled does have a pan drop. it does not have a push down. big difference. |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 12/19/2008 Posts: 90 |
sled does not have a drop pan, thats springriver, not smttpa |
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Re: Sleds
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pan drop
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if you go to you tube and search for smttpa, the sled in those videos absolutely has a pan drop. you can see the back of it off the ground and then watch it drop going down the track. just no push down kicking in. here is a video, it's the correct club/association:
[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 12/19/2008 Posts: 90 |
it swivels were it is hooked to the main frame. it just dependes were the box starts the pan does not drop. we do that so it takes off easier, it is fastened in the back with chains, cant drop.on my tractor, its on the ground the whole time. |
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Re: Sleds
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pan drop
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I thought it may have been setup to where it worked like that from the video. it looked like the weight of the box and it being so far back was rocking the sled back, pulling up the pan because it would drop so quick after they took off. not a bad setup. |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 04/06/2010 Posts: 139 |
There were'nt too many video cameras in the stands back in those days..... |
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Re: Sleds
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Registered: 01/19/2010 Posts: 136 |
thats what sucks there is no footage of this style of pulling. i have searched for it on you tube and came up with nothing. We got to talking about it yesterday again and just like said above they would pull the light classes then throw an M on the skid and start the heavy classes. Listening to the ol boys talk about pulling is sure alot of fun. Be interesting to see what this sport is doing when I am the ol boy talking about what we are doing now!! |
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