South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 16, 2011 11:03AM
Looking for more interested LLSS Pullers to come join SCWTP ( South Central Wisconsin Tractor Pullers ) and pull in our new #6250 LLSS class for 2012. See attachment for our rules. Please call Scott cell 920-538-0642 with any questions.
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Attachments:
open | download - SCWTP 6250 LLSS Rules.docx (18.6 KB)

Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 16, 2011 12:08PM
Those are neat rules. Interested to hear how that works out for you. Winking
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 16, 2011 03:17PM
yha hope you guys have lots of fun with that 3 pretty separate rules for diesel 315 twins 410 intercooler 470 no intercooler just a little to complicated simple and neat 470 3x4 intercooler or not like that
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 17, 2011 12:14AM
Is it unlimited RPMs?
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 17, 2011 01:18AM
Yes unlimited rpm's.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 17, 2011 02:31AM
I'm confused by 11-2. The way I read that all diesel & any alcohol tractors under 310 can run MAF Enhancement, but pretty much everywhere else says no MAF Enhancement. I have a pretty good idea what it's supposed to say, but don't think it does.

Maybe "Single turbo tractors under 310 CID (alcohol & diesel) can run MAF Ehnancement."???
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 17, 2011 02:38AM
Looks like the took BSTPA and ORVTPA LLSS rules and put them togeather! Im just glad there going to let some spark in the class up there!! Good luck with it!
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 17, 2011 05:11AM
Yes, Single turbo tractors 310 CID ( alcohol & diesel ) can run MAF enhancement. For our class we are utilizing a lot of ORVTPA rules. They have alot of success. Keeping Uniform rules so tractors can travel more to us makes more sense. The more good competition the better. That makes it more fun for all.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 18, 2011 01:40PM
These rules look like a realy good step toward a national rule for the LLSS class. I know the ORVTPA rules work great because we have over 30 tractors running. The best thing about these rules is no one running a true LLSS tractor is excluded. In my opinion 410 intercooler diesels are equal to 470 w/o intercooler and badger state has proven that the small cube twin turbo tractors are just as stong. throwing in the 370 alky will bring numbers and good variety to the class. Something for everyone. Can't wait to see how this goes for 2012, maybe we can come up and play. Its always fun to meet new people and find new competition.
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Mid South to offer LLSS for 2012 December 19, 2011 02:24AM
Mid South will offer a LLSS class for 2012 as a NTPA Member State class. The rules are attached. The rules were written to include both ORVTPA and MTTPA.
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Attachments:
open | download - 6000 LB LIGHT LIMITED SUPER STOCK TRACTOR.doc (25.5 KB)

Re: Mid South to offer LLSS for 2012 December 19, 2011 04:11AM
Mid South adding the class will just thin out the ky guys. and i think that 360 twin charger is to much. Should have went with 310 that way the rules would have been more uniform. But you might see some old lss come back out int he LLSS class. What will it cost to get a llss checkout to be able to pull with them?
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Re: Mid South to offer LLSS for 2012 December 19, 2011 04:25AM
the 360 is already in the Mtpa rules look it up and see for yourself, looks like a chance for the class to expand to other venues; hopefully this want kill the middle tn or any of the ky associations since there are several tractors in the class now
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Re: Mid South to offer LLSS for 2012 December 20, 2011 01:29PM
i like to see this class at retreat june 30 and boaz wi spring pull first wekend of june its a great class and alot of different color
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot December 20, 2011 11:18AM
What exactly does the MAF Enhancements include? Could someone define what that covers exactly? Thanks
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SCWTP New LLSS Class for 2012 Meeting January 02, 2012 12:13PM
We will be having a meeting on 1/28/12 @ Nora's on Hwy 12/18 to go over rules for the LLSS class.
Please attend if your intrested in joining this class.

Questions about the class call Scott 920-538-0642

Questions about the meeting call Brian 608-219-0358 or Jaimee 608-209-2835



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2012 12:15PM by Jaimee.
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Re: SCWTP New LLSS Class for 2012 Meeting 1/28/12 January 26, 2012 11:27PM
Reminder to all of our LLSS Class meeting this Saturday 1/28/12 at 1:00 at Nora's. I have been enjoying talking to a lot of you interested pullers already.
Looking forward to getting as many of you together as we can on Saturday to firm up a few things as a group. For the ones of you that can make the
meeting Saturday and want to come alitle earlier ( 12 - 12:30 ) I will buy you lunch. Thank You Scott Spiegelberg cell 920-538-0642
Can also call Brian Mikkelson 608-219-0358 - Jaimee Linnerud 608-209-2835 if any questions.
At 3:00 we will be having or NA Class meeting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2012 11:28PM by ScottSpieg.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 28, 2012 01:59PM
These are the same rules that the WNYPFP run in NY @6500lbs. with MAF for all, for the last 3 yrs., works great with alot of color. At a PPL grandnational event we pulled at we had 7 tractors in 7ft. out 13 entered. We also had 5 different winners during the year(15 hooks), all with different setups according to the rules.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 28, 2012 03:40PM
My opinion on the weight is it should stop at 6000 lbs . Used to be 5500 , add a roll cage , and it went to 5700 , add front skids , and the weight went to 6000 . I dont think parts today are heavier now than what they used to be , and for the midsouth rules the 360 two charger rule needs to disapear ! yes it is a rule for mid. tenn. but there is not a two charger set-up currently running with them ! and also letting the gas only run an intercooler is Bull ! No intercoolers period !!!!!CoolCool
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 12:28AM
Wow, you must know everyones setup, question is are there any with being built or sitting that might return with this setup. I don't have a problem with gas tractors with coolers that would be the least of my worries. Btw, maybe you should walk the pits and look real close.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 02:06AM
George who is running the set up? Mid south should have took orvtp rules, made a copy and put them in, if they wanted to run twin charger set up copy bstpa rules and add them, those are the 2 sets of rules that WORK and haveWORKED for years it is prob the fastest growing class in the US. 360 twin charger is to much and is a big reason the class won't grow in TN like is has in other states. Sit back and watch.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 03:31AM
well there was two originally and then another was brought out of storage and was ready to go, however it was sold and I know of one currently being built in accordance with this rule. As for growth it seems that is another misstatement, their are several llss in mtpa and more in the process from what i hear. I find it curious that someone with the name "a real puller" is not a name I have heard at any pull.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 04:40AM
was not able to make it to the meeting. just wondering if anything change or what the rules are. thanks in advance
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 06:52AM
Hey George ! I will post my name and i will agree that the 2 charger 360 is too much ! In the right hands $$$$$$$ it would mop everyones butt ! and the intercooler rule was just snatched out of the air ! the tractor that builds to this rule can only run midsouth , not orv, not ktpa, not bob , nor mttpa . Who was in charge of over-seeing the rules and who was involved in the rules for the new midsouth llss class ?
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 07:44AM
Yeah, maybe so jeff, but with those kinds of dollars why pull llss, go ahead and make a mean lt. super. Remember the 2 chargers can't be unlimited but rather 3in on both max. Slade had his last setup from FVP and it was their secondhand stuff. With two my next junker might have a chance and the last one i had was competitive with two and just made to be a filler with one. I don't know who came up with the gas intercooler rule?, someone from Missouri? Keeping the same charger rules as btsp might make the dsl competetive but this is already a alky class down here. I don't remember anyone dominating but kept it close. Btw, see you in M'boro next week hopefully. Until someone does build one with the big money it is only speculation.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 08:05AM
360 will get out of hand fast with the rite pocket book like jeff said! really dont make since to build a tractor you can only run in TN anyways, if they were going to add the class i wish they would have let people know that they were thinking about it so that some of the pullers could have went and talked about what should have been in the rules, ill have to say i think it is a step back for a set of national rules!
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 08:15AM
Look me up at the Boro ! i think you owe me lunch ! just kidding .sounds like good weather and lookig forward to seeing you and all of the tn. guys .
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 11:14AM
Maybe i do, i can buy dinner just not much else. I will continue to disagree on this, but it doesn't matter until someone steps out and tries. Brad, I would build for here just because I can't get the time to go elsewhere. With things the way they are here barely get time to run local much less travel. Hope things are going well. Btw, the new tractor really looks sharp. Hey Jeff you get any paint on that rig yet. What is it about a dsl winning that bothers you fellas so much, I still don't believe the results will change with a good alky tractor still out front. It would be fun to have a big enough checkbook to find out though, if it dominates I am sure adjustments can be made.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 02:03PM
The gas w/intercooler rule was adopted for my two cockshutts since I commited to run them with Midsouth before I even got them home... However, with that being said... one of them has since been sold and the other one is getting an update so we can run it other places. If nothing major happens, we still plan on running the one I have with ALL of the Midsouth events that host a LLSS class and it will probablly find its way into a couple LSS classes too!!

I'm also pretty sure the 360 w/ twins was put in for some current Midsouth tractors. I think Midsouth has done the right thing to try accomadate the tractors that are committed to running with them instead of hoping others will show up.

I also believe in due time, the numbers will grow like it has in other classes.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012 January 31, 2012 02:32AM
I know of 2 cockshutts in West TN that would be able to run this class if the guy has time to get them out to compete. 1 is an Alky and 1 is Dsl with twins do not know what it will take for him to get them out
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot February 09, 2012 09:38AM
how many hooks is it looking like theres is going to be for 2012
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 29, 2012 09:07AM
Will also agree with 360 with twins is too much. However the 315 twins could certainly use the inter coolers like BSTP.
Greg
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012 Meeting Thank You January 29, 2012 11:56AM
SCWTP would like to all of the pullers that were able to make it our meeting and that talked to me before that couldn't make it for your input !!! We had a good group discussion with input on the rules, weights, etc. Together we talked through it and all were good with the rules as written for LLSS #6250. We are excited to add this class for 2012. We have a lot of interest in this new class. We will have a good amount of tractors running for the start of the season. I wish all of you that are building for this class or making a few changes to fit Good Luck to get your tractors running soon to enjoy the pulling season too. Let's go and Have Some Fun on the Track !!!!!! Scott Spiegelberg
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012 Meeting Thank You January 29, 2012 01:20PM
I will say this (in my opinion) if it were an Allis Chalmers (for example) with twins, the 360 without an intercooler vs. the 315 with an intercooler would be very close to equal in HP and ft lbs of torque. In this hypothetical side by side comparison all things would be the same other than the cubic inches and inercooler. The same turbo, cylinder head, fuel system etc and tuned the same. It';s really no different than how the 470 non - intercooled diesels compare to the 410's with an intercooler at Gordyville. Obviously this is a LLSS class restricted to a 3" inlet.

Now, what the 360 limit will do is allow the DT 360 Navistar, the 359 Cummins and others to jump into the class. This is may very well be a different deal as these engines are more efficient in many areas. If the idea of the intercooled, 315 twins is to enable older tractors with 300 ish inch engines to compete, then the 360 with twins rule defeats that purpose in a way. I don't think it's a terrible idea to try it. It may be just fine. As always, time will tell. Bottom line is there is another association adopting the LLSS class, and thats a good thing.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012 Meeting Thank You January 29, 2012 02:47PM
Color man brings up a good point. In order for LLSS to continue to thrive, I feel you need a Diesel option for the engines that he listed along with the Manheim Deere engine. Seems like there are two options to do this, 410 with single intercooler and 360 with twins. I am curious if there is any hard data to support the comment that the 360 twins will dominate. The answer should be out there from all the R&D that has been done on the Cummins for the truck guys.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 30, 2012 05:21AM
How much difference in power is the single 470 diesel and the 370 alky vs. the 360 with twins? As much as I have seen the class in KTPA/ORV/BOB go down the track this year I believe balance, track reading, driver skill and yes---sometimes hook number---determine victor. Horsepower and torque are of course very important but getting what you have to the ground is far more important.

I've been acting like a street corner preacher about the importance of 360, which is 5.9 Cummins territory. I have been told that 1200 reliable horsepower is realistic for less than 30K with a 5.9 with twins. The 5.9 is the modern-day Small Block Chevy, Big Block Chevy, 400 Series IH. The speed at which performance gains have been applied to the 5.9 have been exponentially faster than any other engine in motorsports history.

So my questions are:
1) how far off base am I with the about a 1200hp cummins and how it would mesh in LLSS?
2) If the 360 twin scenario, regardless of engine type, is beyond the 470/370 group, whats a setup for a 360 to keep the playing field level? 360 single with a cooler? twins with an inlet restriction?

I have always been a supporter of the current LLSS rules and the pullers who pull under that rule set, and that will not discontinue; those folks have been good to me and I sure as heck won't forsake that. I am just looking at the greater picture as to how a 360 diesel could play and compete equally.


Thanks


Bryan Lively -

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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 30, 2012 02:04PM
In over simplified terms, within the context of the diesles in the LLSS class, there are two things that "fool" and engine into thinking it is bigger than it really is in displacement:

1 - A good air to water intercooler. Arguably the equivelant of 50 - 60 C.I. more with than without an intercooler. If one believes that a 470 single without is equal to 410 with, then this would be accurate.

2 - Twin turbo's. Again, arguably the equivalent of 75 - 100 C.I. due to high air pressures and improved volumetric efficiency. If you believe that a 315 twin is equal to a 410 c.i. single, then this would be accurate also.

So, if you use 470 C.I. single as the baseline and work from there, a twin 360 without and intercooler should be very close to a single 470 without an intercooler. A 315 twin with an intercooler should be close to a 360 without which should also be close to a single 470 without. There are several combinations you can come up with, but to me this is a good "theoretical" way to calculate which displacement, turbo, intercooler combinations will have a good opportunity to compete. Of course, theory's are often proven wrong.

With all of that said, the 3 " inlet still 80 - 90 percent of what dictates the available hp. I have heard that a well tuned, single 5.9 Cummins with a good fuel system, good 3 x 4 turbo, and intercooler will come close to 1200 hp, so I would believe the twins with no intercooler on the same engine would be there also.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 30, 2012 02:56PM
My IH 301 can't stand 2 go bigger so do I get a innercooler or tiwns maybe!!!! see this will never stop keep the rules simple just like orvtpa has got
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 30, 2012 11:56PM
I will be starting the 2 year tech school you can send your tech man to so that he will know how to check of all the different set ups, and with no cube checks who is going to be the first one to punch a dt360 out to 410 and twins, its always an option! You guys are taking this clas and trying to let every old super from 20yrs ago in. Take the 2 sets of llss rules and make one (ORV and BSTPA) Mid South went about this the wrong way, Blast away george...Spinning
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 31, 2012 12:43AM
you asked, with your logic whats to keep a dt466 from being 540 then, oh wait it could have already happened, what to keep a case at 470 heck 504 is simple and lets not make this only dsl, who knows if there isn't someone somewhere with one at say "401" very simple for a ford . Just about didn't respond because the thread suggested that everyone is a cheater. I hope that there are plenty of options for each puller in this class. No one knows , but if you or anyone else thinks this is happening then by all means open the billfold and pay for the protest. Some can't see the forest for the trees, let it play out and see what comes from this and btw, this class started with old supers that no longer were pulling. Sipes, Billy Longs old tractor that Tim Fox runs, heck the revenge ford is one of Wilhites old chassis, the insane is Larrys old super. There are several more from this lineage, by no means does this make every old super have a place to pull, but it does give some who have left the sport a chance to return without mortaging all they own. Several years ago on this site, it was explained to me how mixing all the rules at Gordyville would be disastrous and never produce a good show, no one has come on here and apologized for being wrong about that; wonder if they will when this isn't a train wreck; my guess is they will take the credit and say they helped promote the class.
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Re: South Central WI has New LLSS Class for 2012Hot January 31, 2012 01:50AM
If an association were to run all of the above listed combinations it most definetly would be a nightmare for the tech officials. That wasn't my point at all. There was a question asked about 360 C.I. DIESEL engines in the class and I gave what I thought was a reasonable comparison between them and the other DIESELS competing at a LLSS level.

To add to George's point for those who are suggesting that someone with a diesel would cheat by have too many cubic inches, how do we know that some of the "decubed" alky burners are really "decubed" or are running at the 370 limit? I truly don't think anyone is breaking the rules here, but the original comment about it was pointless.
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