09:52:24am, Sunday, May 12, 2024
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V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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I really do not understand the new ruling banning the v-8 in the LSS class. They have never dominated in the OSS or the LSS before. I guess some guys are just plain scared.
Below is an idea that Dan Dunham had. I think they had a V-8 back a few years ago. It is an excellent idea and one really worth considering. The class would have more tractors, more color and a separate point system best of both worlds.
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Posts: 744 |
One problem I see running together like the idea stated is if there is 2 separate classes with the lss now and a few v8's, what promoter is going to pay for 2 classes that ultimately look like 1 to everyone sitting in the stands? COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Depends on tractor numbers. The promoter would get a lot better show with them running together than without.
As to the fan's, it could be billed as a grudge match. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
AV.....Yes, we are aware of that and this is definitely a stumbling block. One thing that comes to mind is... That if we took the initiative and got others involved and really wanted to do this bad enough, spent the time, effort, knocked on enough doors and had the support of the other V-8 guys and some of the I-6 guys, I think we could get some sort of sponsorship/contingency etc. to cover most of it, if not all of it. and maybe even have some to share with the inline 6 guys, so we all would have better purse money....Basically it is just a matter of doing it, but it would not be easy.
I have also been thinking about a way that we could get diesel LSS tractors re-involved in the class again with us. There is no reason that we can't figure out a way to get the diesel guys back in the game with some sort of handicap, (Ex. extra weight etc. and tweaked until they become competitive etc.), if need be, to help get the numbers back up to where they were a few years ago. This would also help any efforts in procuring sponsorship / contingencies a fair amount I think. Of course this would all hinge on the fact that we get the go ahead to even pursue this. If we can present this to some of the promoters and get enough interest, that may go a long way. If anyone has some creative ideas, please speak up....This what these forums are for Would like to hear from you Diesel LSS guys whether you have one or would consider getting back in, especially if you could compete with the alcohol tractors with the thought that you had as good as chance as anyone to win Having some limitations may be good for this class also....There are some good turbo limitation ideas that would have to be considered, ie. maybe inlet turbo size and limit to 3 turbos on alky tractors etc. before we lose the LSS class completely. there is effort in change is effort, but The name " LSS Open" is beginning to sound more and more like the appropriate name, as it is "OPEN".... to V-8's, 6's and Diesels, which will bring a wide variety of color and fair opportunity for all... Bottom Line....We need numbers and longevity and the only way we can do that is by getting all the LSS guys involved with some common sense rules. There has been enough division in Super Stock in general over the years, now it is time to bring it back together. Nay Sayers, can express how stupid this idea is all you want, but we are just trying to find out what the interest level would be and the possibilities of doing it, really are...Could be like old times where alkies and diesels pull together on a competitive level. Who knows...in the end, if we were to get the chance to pull it off and it became reality....LSS Open, could be the only LSS Class left, down the road! Dan Dunham |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Posts: 744 |
We are building one we hope to get into the LSS class. I would like to weigh 6400 or 6500 just to get more weight on the nose. WIth an extra turbo, injection pump, water it would be nice to put that weight up front like the alkys get to. I am for the weight just for safe ride, not for winning advantage. We would be behind the eight ball from the start, but it would be a fun class to compete in when possible. And we haven't given up the ghost on the grease just yet. But with the advancements with ignition the alky guys are making the diesels have a tough road to hoe if they want to win. Now I know there are things not tried with diesel electronic injection, but I won't be paving the road on that any time soon.
I hope a happy medium can be reached to get everyone on the track. COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Well
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Looks like the light or limited pro class is going to be the death of the light SS class. Face it, the LSS will never be a big class as it was in the old days. |
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Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,348 |
As a fan of the sport, I disagree with the NTPA's recent LSS rule decision. As has been pointed out, there are significant differences between the LSS and Open SS classes that would make it more challenging for a v8 to dominate. I do not know the truth about threatened boycotts, but if that's true, it's a black eye to both the pullers involved, and the NTPA as an organization.
Nevertheless, there may be a way to make lemonade out of lemons, but you guys need to get organized to make it happen. Here's an idea. Please provide feedback, perhaps it can work. Now, I'm not in favor (normally) of adding classes. There are plenty enough as it is. The BEST solution would be for NTPA to rescind it's decision and let the chips fall where they may. However, the fact is a number of guys have already spent $$ and more have ordered parts. What if you guys went to NTPA with the proposal of adding a LSS class. It could be called Light SS Open, except the gist would be to NOT open it up hemi heads, etc. It would be a place for the Light v8 SS to pull, and it would have to be a Grand National class out of necessity. To make it work, seems to me the following would have to occur: 1) Get organized quickly and present something to NTPA. 2) Speak with promotors. For example, you guys from Wisconsin, talk with the promotors from Tomah, Waupun, maybe a couple other Wisconsin venues, perhaps even Sandwich. Perhaps the Knapps would consider adding the class to New Hampton. Ron Bultemeier, you are from Ft. Wayne. Call the Arcola promotors. Call the Lagrange, South Bend, and some of the Michigan promotors. Robbie Crutchfield, get in touch with the Saluda promotor; perhaps Pinetops would sanction a GN class. Mike Novinger- You get the Missouri and Illinois promotors. And... Bowling Green is hopefully going to add a Thursday session (maybe 2??). Someone speak with them about the possibility of adding the class if NTPA will approve it. Here's another promotor idea as well: The last weekend of July has 3 GN events simultaneously- Ionia, Ft Recovery, and Brandenburg. Perhaps one of these would add the class as well: Ionia would be the best bet. Brandenburg already has LSS and LLSS; The Fort has SS Open. This class, should it get off the ground, would be a nice addition to the Ionia event. 3) Which ones of you would be willing to commit to a GN series or maybe 6-8 events, hopefully most of which would be 2 hook events. Going off Dan Dunham's post, it looks like next year there could be a possibility of: 1) Dunham 2) Bultemeier 3) Neumanns 4) Crutchfield 5) Mike Novinger 6) Pierre Angers 7) Scott Eberhardt 8) Scott Whitworth 9) Lustik's building one for someone?? The thing is, this is as many tractors as were at many of the NTPA GN LSS and PPL LSS hooks this past summer. Any "regular" v6 LSS would be welcome to run for points and compete as well. If this is unworkable, so be it. However, if there is a chance that enough guys could support it, then now would be the time to get the ball rolling, get organized amongst yourselves, speak with NTPA and promotors, and make it happen. Any feedback, especially from y'all who have already spent $$ building one of these, is appreciated. This was also posted on Fonda's board. Thanks, Michael Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2012 03:43PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
Not a bad idea by any means....I will talk with these guys to see what they think. I am not sure what the process is to starting a class for sure with NTPA or anyone else, especially for next year, but I will check with the powers that be to see what would need to happen for them to consider it. I like your thinking...Outside of the box...Are you sure your not building a V-8?
I owe you a beer! Dan Dunham |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
After I posted to your Idea Michael...I had another thought to expand on your idea. What if the V-8's were allowed to run with the inline 6's at all events, but there would be separate Points and Money...Everybody would be happy, while at the same time adding more competitors to the soft numbers now in the LSS classes around the country...It would make a heck of a rivalry, which would be very appealing to the fans, yet at the same time it would not effect the 6's winnings and points races.
It would be almost like having the rivalry of the diesels and Alky's like in the early to mid-nineties or even better! Would like to get more feedback from everyone to get some brainstorming going...Thanks Dan Dunham |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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I like how you guys
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I like how you guys have this all figured out and who the POSSIBILITIES could be. But I have yet to see either one of you mention what the weight of the class will be. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,348 |
I would suggest either the current 6,200 lbs, or no more than 6,500 lbs.
Personally, I'd recommend keeping maximum ci at 505 for this reason: Guys have already spent the $$ building their v8's for a 505 ci class. Plus, if the rule is rescinded, then everyone is running the same size limitations. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2012 05:37PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 133 |
They wanted components in the lss so they could have more movable weight. So why are we adding weight?? Lets move back and say alky run 5800 and diesels run 6000. Make those guys drive the tractors. Maybe they will have to lower the draw bar,run the throttle alittle differently. Then maybe we might have a fighting chance. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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ohhhhhhhh
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686, where is the like button for your comment? And I am alky just not component. Now wait, I heard in December of 2011 that once you move "forward", you can't move back. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 133 |
They might lose a couple of tractors. But could gain alot more. What I like is when you ask why not they say I drive it. So then maybe you should move to a heavier class. Dont ruin this one for two or three tractors!!! |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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wicked
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spoken like a true chicken @#$%&. Thats the way to do it run compition off that will solve the problem. Here is another idea put your 686 in the class it belongs in which is lls. Our quit crying. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 133 |
I can see why you may think im crying but the truth is I am having lots of fun pulling. A far as a chicken $@#@. That I dont see I aleast post my name! What I dont understand is why you are attacking me!! |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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wicked
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I'm 99% for sure we pull togather. If I'm right U know who I am!!!!! Sounds alot like the feedback I heard last weekend. Take the wieght from the 504 boys maybe the won't show up or maybe they will and have a wreck and then we have a chance. Nevermind safety. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 133 |
So do u have any solutions. I would like to see at a state level the class stay diesel and alkys but if we dont find way it will be all alkys. Maybe you dont want any diesels thats fine too. |
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Re: proposed class weight & ci limit
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wicked
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honestly I have put alot of thought in this becuase it going to take all of us to make this work I agree with that. But no I do not have a good answer. My answer on my own setup is to update it and change some things and try to lock it to the track. I realize they have a clear advantge But I like smoke and I made that choice. I just hope to close the gap and maybe every once in awhile out pull them. The challange is what is fun for me. |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
We don't have anything figured out yet...The idea was just presented tonight.....We are just tossing ideas around that may have some POSSIBILITIES.
As far as weight goes, if we were to have a LSS Open as a separate class of some sort, but open to 6's....I vote to the run the same that it is now in LSS. If we were able to run with the 6's together with separate points etc, somehow.....we all run the same weight of course. Now we just need to figure out the best way to work the beer drinking trophy in! Dan Dunham |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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r u kinding me!!!!!!
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so let me get this a whole bunch of guys are gona build v8 Lss and show up and force the promoters to have your new 10 tractor class....this maybe the dumbest thing I;ve read on this board in a while, the Lss can't get more than 6 to any pull as it is and now there gona be 10 v8s there ,,, the v8 rule has been in the books for a couple years and nobdy built one and now they have taken the rule OUT of the rule book and 10 guys are gona build them,,,,,makes perfect sense to me??????? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,348 |
I suppose it would make perfect sense to a person with elementary school reading comprehension skills. A few points regarding your post: 1) Read Dunham's post of a few days back. There are already 8-9 built or in the process of being built to see the track next year. I have no reason to doubt his information. They guys ALREADY have spent $$$ building to the rules that were in place. 2) Nobody is going to "force" the promotors to do anything. If they guys can get together, go to NTPA, and speak to various promotors, they can voluntarily choose to add the class (or not). If NTPA tells the v8 LSS guys to pound sand, then it's a moot point anyway. 3) Look at the #s for BOTH NTPA and PPL LSS classes last year. Most of the time there were 10 (or fewer) tractors anyway. Why would one poke fun at a possible LSS-Open class when the current LSS classes have low #s? In a perfect would, the rule would be rescinded and the class opened back up, but that could be a longshot. 4) Regarding nobody building one- Hasn't Eberhart from Wisconsin had a V8 IH 1468 for a couple years already? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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Who said anything about force?
Why ban them than if no one is building them? The class needs the tractors, so now why is making a ban a good thing? There have been several built and several have run. Just because there has not been any last year or even the year before does not mean anything. Times are kinda hard, maybe you haven't noticed? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
If I looked at the points right in OSS for 2012 in the NTPA, 1-2-3 were 903 cummins V8's. That seems dominant to me, and what would suggest that that dominance would not continue unless those 3 tractors don't run next year? The argument that the V8 isn't dominant in OSS is true, only if you look at 2011 and prior. Bryan Lively - 
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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We are talking about the V-8 that came in the 2 wheel drive tractors. NOT the ag block that came in the articulated.
Now with that said, all the inline 6's now run 50 cubes less than the 903 cummins. That is about 400 hp less. Which one do you think would win? Is it the V-8 guys fault that the inline 6 crowd does not build a ag type larger block 6 cyl? No it is not. I will repeat, the 2 wheel drive V-8 engines have NEVER dominated. So, now explain why they outlawed it in the LSS class. |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea) It won't work!!!!!!!
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Anonymous User
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I think it is an extreme over-simplification to say that the top 3 tractors in the OSS points race are there simply because because they are V-8s. It seems to me that they have put the effort into finding the right combination of technology to put winning machines on the track. The tractors at the top of the LSS points standings came out of the same stable. It would appear that they have the 6s figured out too? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Um, what's the weight now? Kinda obvious isn't if your going to run them together isn't it? |
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Re: ? for Larry Richwine or NTPA official?
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,348 |
Larry, this may be a question outside the realm of Tech Services, but in the past, what has been the process for a group of pullers to get a new class off the ground with NTPA? Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2012 04:18PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: ? for Larry Richwine or NTPA official?
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Posts: 756 |
Just to clarify, What V-8 engines are we talking about?? Ag based engines or automotive? I assume AG engines, I would aslo assume problems matching up performance 6s to 8s.. |
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Re: ? for Larry Richwine or NTPA official?
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We are talking ag engines that came in a 2 wheel drive tractor, not the ag based engines that are allowed in the OSS class. Those can be from articulated tractors.
The proof is the inline 6 as dominated over the V-8 in the OSS class, so there is ZERO reason to think it would dominate in the LSS class. Just some guys run yellow. |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Um!
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Where were these guys who have or are building V-8 lt. supers at the NTPA meeting. They certainly weren't at the meeting. The pullers who pull this class now should have the voice. Their money, their voice. You guys are sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. Neither one of you have a dog in this race! Why not get on the NASCAR board and try and tell them how to run their org., which makes as much sense as what your trying to due here. |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
Um......We were not at the meeting, but we submitted a letter to Greg Randall, who was kind enough, to get it in the hands of all the board / committee members for the meeting at Enderle.....We used to have a V-8 in this class and are in the process of building a new one and may continue to do so, just to hear you bitch! Dan Dunham |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
didnt all the six cyl teams have the opportunity to build a v8 too,looks like they second guessed thier own decisions in what brand they chose to build..this is a big joad of &*$%..... |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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i agree
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No v8's is really a stupid idea especially if ppl are building them or already have built them. Y is it in pulling when sumbody figures out how to go faster and farther down the track most of the others just pout cus there getting beat....did it ever occur to anyone that if ur getting beat then u need to step it up dont shun a person for kicking ur butt becus he had more smarts to build a machine with more sac than yours....just my 2 cents on this whole deal |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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puller 12000
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The people that actually show up at the lss events said they did not want them, These are the precomitt guys that travel the whole curcuit not just show up when a GN pull is near by, their opinion should be respected |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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They already showed they bow, so what's your point?
Oh I see, your one of those that to see things banned instead of trying to make things work. Why don't you show us all where a V-8 has dominated the LSS? or even the OSS class? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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What opinion is that? That they are scared or ignorant? There is ZERO proof that the V-8 will dominate. Just another nail in the coffin of the LSS class.
What about all the guys already building, the future of the sport, shouldn't their opinions be counted? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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puller 12000
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The NTPA has trough the years has lost most of their states and has primarily become an organization to promote pulls, Mostly Grand National/Region National events, and to do that they need a committed group of pullers in each class to provide the promoters with a class they can count on to show up, If a group of these pullers say no to a new rule the NTPA will listen with in reason to them, Sorry but a few guys saying they will build V 8s is NTPA betting on the come, and they would be dumber than a box of rocks to do that. And as far as a two color class, 1. you can put any sheet metal you want on the chassis and engine. 2. All the component chassis are about the same so whats the difference? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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still stupid ideat
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So what your saying is as long as im a regularnever have to worry about someone building something that may just beat my regular ride??? |
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Re: Attention: All pullers building a LSS v8 (idea)
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Don't you have to worry about that now or are you Chizek/Blackburn team?
If not, you cannot beat Chizek now, so what's the difference again? |
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Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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In The Dark
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How come up to now no one has ever built a V-8 Light Super? I had no idea 8-9 of them were being built.. |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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I think
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Instead of everyone worrying so much about the light superstock class and v8's, maybe everyone should worry about the heavy superstock class and their numbers being short! |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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I know nothing
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I think most people want to run lighter.Its cheaper to haul also one of the most popular classes as of now. Just wait the light mods are going to take off to but thats mostly because it will be cheaper. Im not talking about the GN. I think the RGs will be adding them because of short numbers. Just guessing though. |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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I think
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The people that want to run lighter know they can't compete in the heavier class so they want to screw it up for the people that made the class that they want in. Here's an idea, LOWER THE WEIGHT OF THE LIGHT SS CLASS! |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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Registered: 02/10/2012 Posts: 17 |
I AGREE DROP THE WEIGHT TO 6000# OR 5700# REMEMBER IT USE TO BE 5500#
THAT WOULD MAKE FOR SOME REALLY GOOD WILD RIDES. NOW THATS WHAT FANS LOVE TO SEE. |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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I think
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Thank you tcm, but we all know if that happens the "wrong" tractor might win. |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
Upon further thoughts, I can place 4 or 5 that I have seen, Coles built a v8 binder but that is in ny, I actually sold Scott a block at l'ville a couple years back still have a pic of his somewhere in this computer and I have watched a Mf in il with a dsl unless it was sold, it was for sale on this page back in the spring. Dunhams old tractor is in Mo I believe and isn't there a Cat on dsl in Ny. So these folks all are now illegal and basically told we don't need u in our organization. This type of activity ruined an active class a few years back on a separate issue now once again it has happened. I don't know the correct answer but I can see the wrong one. |
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Re: Why All The Sudden Is Everyone Building A V-8 Light Super
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counting
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I KNOW two that are listed, one is being built for unlimited SS, (NOT light) and the other is a dreamer. I'm not that well connected, but would guess most the ones "being built" are mostly imaginary. The v-8's need to run unlimited anyway. Pretty simple actually. |
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The more things change the more they remain the same
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Registered: 12/17/2010 Posts: 54 |
Attached is a letter circulated around 1990-1992 (when my brother Ernie and I were campaigning "Bad Medicine") and I want to point out that I do not have a horse in this race; therefore this is just for your information. These debates (and heated ones at that) have gone on for decades, I do not profess to have the answers to these long fought battles nor will I expand on my opinions on the internet, but I find it humorous that opinions change so drastically when the shoe is on the other foot.
Sincerely, Bryan Conner PS. I will attach other entertaining letters pertaining to this as I find them as there were several reams of paper spent on this very subject. |
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Re: The more things change the more they remain the same
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Anonymous User
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Bryan, this is hysterical. We want more. |
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Re: The more things change the more they remain the same
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Bryan, I cant resist--------BUSTED-----------!
BB |
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Re: The more things change the more they remain the same
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Registered: 12/17/2010 Posts: 54 |
Bob, that's funny I don't care who you are! LOL |
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why is it pretty simple?
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No v-8 has dominated in the light super class since it's conception. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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bats
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You need a new bat to beat that dead horse with?
What is easy to see is that the v-8 WILL dominate the lss class. It is so plain, that even Ray Charles can see it. Or maybe those that can't see that need zippers in their belly buttons so they can see out? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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No one is beating a dead horse save those of you that will not make a case why the 2 wheel drive V-8 would dominate the Light Super Stock class. It has not dominated in the OSS class, so why would it do it in the LSS class? The 2 wheel drive V-8 has been in and out of the LSS class for 20 years or so and guess what, no domination. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Shell answer guy
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That is like saying turbines don't dominate in the LSS class.
There are none running in the LSS class. There are no and have been no consistant running v-8's in the lss class to even get a chance to dominate. Good way to spin some "facts"! It would be the same thing as promising tax breaks to those on welfare. They don't pay any friggin tax. Hey, these tractors that have never competed, they have also never dominated. No kidding! Maybe NTPA should have just put in a rule for LSS, that no de-cubing of engines would be allowed to make 505. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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thank you now, has the 2 wheel drive V-8 dominated the OSS class? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Yes it did |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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okay, when? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Early 90's |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Seriously? It won for a bit and the 6 cylinders came back and they have pretty much won since then. Your talking 20 years ago. So now explain how the V-8 will dominate in the LSS class now. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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2011, 2010, 2009, 2000, 1997, 1995, 1992, 1991, 1990 NTPA champ.
Not to bad of a track record? Spark plug classes favor v-8's always has. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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But in those 23 years, a 6 cylinder won 13 times...that is domination. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Good point, of those 13 how many of them were won by the same tractor or updated version of the same tractor?
Also what was the ratio of 2wd v8's to 6 cylinders? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Several were won by Robert's and he ran a 6 cylinder that had 50 fewer cubes. several massey V-8's were run during that time period and also so was a few cat's. so what it shows you is it was the team that won, not the engine that was being run. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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What makes the v8 ( chezik, Campbell, lustik, etc) so dominant in the oss now? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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I didn't know Lustik was dominate now. He cannot push his block as hard and as a result he broke this year. As too the other 2, they are running the articulated V-8 block which is not allowed in the LSS class. That block can take a lot more abuse then the 3208 like Lustik's run or any of the inline 6 cyl blocks that the rest of the class runs. Please also remember that none of the inline 6 cyl pullers run an articulated 6 cyl like the rules allow. They are all running 50 cubes less, which is about 400 hp less. 400 hp is at least one full gear slower and that is a big difference, |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Will decubing give the 3208 block the strength it needs to be pushed hard?
Will the 903's baby brother be an optional engine? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Whose to say the 531/619 Deere can't be decubed? What about the Moline 585? Might be a big Sisu out there. What about a Deutz? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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ted dunham
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Decubing it doesn't strengthen the block really. Your just running a thicker sleeve. I don't think so. If it is not put in a 2 wheel drive tractor from the factory i don't think you can run it. All motors in the LSS had to come the factory in a 2 wheel drive tractor. One would have to see if it ever came in a 2 wheel drive to be sure. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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First off I am not against v-8's.
I do however believe they r more ideally suited to your application than an inline 8 The current barrage in the oss and the long term success of the 3208 are affecting this thinking Decubing a 636 should greatly enhance its reliability and still produce phenomonal power. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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ted dunham
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In my opinion the only reason they banned the V-8 is because the success of the 4 wheel drive ag motors, not the success of the 2 wheel drive V-8 such as the 3208 cat. Lustik's cat has been beaten more then it has won championships by far. The thing is though, the ag style blocks could already not be allowed to run in the LSS class. The other thing is nobody has tried an ag style inline 6 motor capable of running 650 cubes. I am of the opinion that if a top notch team would build one, it would be right there, if not slightly ahead of the current V-8 line up. As I mentioned earlier, decubing it does not make it any stronger. The weak points in the block are not the cylinder wall thickness. It will be the bottom end and that will limit one's rpms. However, yes, it should produce a lot of power, but not necessarily more then any top notch inline 6. This motor would allow a lot of color in the class, that currently have no motor that will hold up like the blues and the reds do. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
ted i find it strange that blocks that never came in a 2wd are legal,and blocks that actually did come from the factory in a 2wd are illegal,i guess whoever thought of the idea of using a v8 at oliver and mf were about 40 yrs ahead of the rest.....sorry i forot the ih guys too... Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2012 09:00AM by patches. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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specificator
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At least Oliver and Massey used "real" diesels, IH just took a gasser and put injectors sorta where the spark plugs were. At least it makes it so any monkey can build and alky IH v-8, just get some greasey old 549 heads and screw them on the DV550 (Imagine that, only 1 number different,,,,,). |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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I think that was done to encourage the inline 6 guys to get a block that could run at 650 cubes and hold up. I find it very odd that no one has built one and they totally rely on Brent Long to build them the smaller cubed motors and then wonder why they don't win |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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I totally agree the articulated v8 is influencing peoples opinions.
Alcohol means big rpm/less torque. Diesel means less rpm/big torque. This is why you dont see big cube 6cyl alkies. Its also why v8 diesels dont fare nearly as well against their 6 cylinder counterparts. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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ted dunham
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The only reason you do not or have not seen a big cube 6 is no one is willing to invest the money to build one, yet. Has nothing to do rpm's or torque. I can't wait until some one builds a 650 cube direct injection diesel. I suspect it would beat anything in the OSS class right now or at the very least be right there. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Prostock and super semi showcase 650 plus 2wd and articulated diesels.
They need weight to get the torque hooked up. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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ted dunham
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I thought we were discussing the OSS class in terms of the articulated motors. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Cat and cummins both used in articulated as well as trucks. Super semi would be a version of articulated super stock |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Yes, am well aware. I wonder why no one has done one for the OSS class though? I do hope one is done soon enough to help quell the current storm. |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Answer
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Your point? |
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Re: why is it pretty simple?
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Question??
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Has there ever been a LSS V-8 that ran the NTPA circuit?? I know Ted dibble had a 1468 IH years ago but thats when he was in NY.. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Anonymous User
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Let's just say that theoretically the v8 builds 300 more hp than the 6cyls...what good will that do in such a light class anyway...the v8s are dominating uss because they have a new outside of the box head design...something the 6cyls could benefit from...from what I've seen I think gettingers has stepped up their game but it seems like a lot of the others keep flogging the same old tired stuff which will not keep you on top forever...case in point would be Roberts. What I don't understand is how a il LSs would want to outlaw v8s at the state level but it's been okay for him to beat the rest of the class by 30 ft for the last 3 yrs.. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ohhhhhhhhhhhh
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Benk, because it's a whining and attention thing. Don't EVEN get me started on that guy that ruined that class and you know what I am talking about! |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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If its a unfair advantage to run a V-8, maybe we should ban having more than 1 tractor in a class. If you look at the numbers in LSS. The team running two tractors at every event wins more often.
I think the rule is un-fair and penalizes inovation in the class. As for my team and me. We have a destroked crank and a set of billet heads for our 1155 Massy that do us no good. We were set to come out in 2014 instead we will sit at home and watch the LSS numbers drop again next year. PS we built the heads 2 yrs ago. Before the big cummins started running so well. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Um
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You built the heads 2 years ago and your still 2 years away from getting it done. Perhaps you should have built a light pro and be pullin for 4 years [ last year, this year, and the next 2 years]] and havin some fun. Dreams are ok but really, 4 years and still no guarantee it will make the track then. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ted dunham
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they banned all fuels but grease, so why run that class? no difference. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
Ted I'm assuming you and dan are the same team. I am one hundred percent in disagreement with this ruling too. To me this goes against the basic principals of tractor pulling. In hearing the comparison of the OSS and the lss classes I'm getting the idea that most think that lustiks can decube and hook in the lss. to me this is no different than the six cyl ally pullers telling the diesel guys" hey there's the sled have at it". A few of the diesel guys have changed to ally because it's better performance. Same as you v eight guys that just might be on to something, the some pullers will switch to v eights. Plus I believe that there is no hemi heads or och allowed in the lss like is allowed in the OSS. If ya knock 145 cubes off the OSS and add pushrods to them take away hemi chambers and I'm sure a few other things the trs would be a lot closer than we think.... |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Yes we are.
The thing that kills me is they banned them with zero evidence that the V-8 would dominate. Lustick's tractor did not dominate the OSS class year in and year out. When Robert's was running NTPA, he was winning and that with 50 fewer cubes to boot. So, based on the evidence, why the reason for the ban? You are also correct on the no OHC. The 6 cylinder block is far stronger than the 2 wheel drive V-8 such as the 3208 cat and can take a lot more abuse. The massey V-8 is a little stronger, but the push rods are a problem. As to the diesel vs alky argument, yes alky has advantages overall, but here too things could have and should have been handled differently. Diesels could have more weight or some limits on the alkies. To save the class the tractors should be run together with each given what is need or taken away so they all can compete together. As to it being confusing to the fans as one poster mentioned, why would it be? They just want to see who wins and that it is a good show. How much better would it be to have a diesel, a 6 cylinder alky and a V-8 be 1, 2 and 3...... and all 3 being a different color.... |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
being a oliver guy and seeing a few hercs split cyl6 off,your only choice is a cat if your staying loyal,i suppose a mm block couyld be used too tho due to the 2155-2055 but that just aint right either... |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Registered: 01/29/2011 Posts: 95 |
I believe that it is a shame that they got rid of the v8 in lss. I can understand giving into class pressure to do it. They are the people that make it happen at the pulls. I look at it like it limits creativity. That is what draws me to the sport. You can try and develop ideas that you come up with. Running the same engine for 30 yrs is boring. Thats why i sold my 6 cyl in the first place and went v8. I did not want to have what everyone else has. If you cant think for yourself and need to follow what others do you will never do better than second. There will always be someone trying something new and usally the same ones will be up front. Do you really think that making different limits would change the outcome?
As for the v8 being dominant in OSS... Its not all the 8cyl that makes the difference. There is a lot of changes that were made from the base 6cyl motor. It is basically almost the same engine internally. They share many of the same parts. It is two 4cyl versions of the 6cyl. There is big differences in turbo,manifolds,plumbing,fuel system, and ignition. These changes can be made to the 6cyl and make a big difference. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
spot on kevin... |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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never gona happen
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what did the ntpa say when all 10 of you guys showed up at the meeting and gave them your ideas?????? and you 10 pullers told the ntpa your are gona build v8 supers and use only a v8 that came in a 2wd farm tractor//////why even pull with the ntpa because you haven't followed one of there rules yet....and what v8 are you10 pullers gona use anyway????? why would the ntpa listen to 10???? pullers that have never been to a ntpa gn hook and not listen to the ntpa gn pullers that really showup??? |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ted dunham
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Well here are a few facts. 1. if it was 10 tractors as your saying, then the class is minus 10 tractors and the class needs tractors. 2. what V-8 is not following the rules and if they are not, why hasn't it been brought up and checked? 3. why should the ntpa listen? as i said, the class is on life support, that is why and a ban is not going to get you more tractors. 4. most of these guys that are building have been pulling on and off for years. just because we are not right now does not mean anything. 5. what do you pull and why don't you sing your name? |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Anonymous User
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I have no dog in this fight, but from me, (outside looking in) I can see both sides, While I agree a ban is never a great thing, if a precedent has been shown before (not saying it has) you might want to take preventative measures to prevent things from getting out of hand. A rule of this magnitue always generates highly contested ideas on both sides, and the fact that everyone is so adamate about it shows that "hopefully" because people care so much, the future of pulling is promising.
My opinons (and are just that, not an argument) is that I think that they should've allowed guys to runs v8's, "IF" things got to where week in and out ones on top, time to set up some restrictions. Everyone loves variety and i think this has hurt innovation and creativity, I think that given enough time, resources and (of course) the almighty $$$, spend enough of each and you can dominate at anything you want, v8 or i6. Well, thats my opinion, disagree if you like. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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sing my name
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1,, the truth is you 10 guys ahve had years to build your v8s and not one is on the track yet and so the ntpa is not minus 10 of you anyway
2,, the ntpa rule says you can run any ag type motor in the gn class in lss and you guys want to limit that to 2wd motors so I kinds guess your not following the ntpa rules. 3,,why should the ntpa listen??? see item #1 ,,, there isn't 10 of you guys,,,, there is 1 of you guys with a tractor on the track!!!!!!!!! 4,,,most of you guys have been building the same tractor for 6 years and your NOT on the track,,, your off the track,,, is does mean something |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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1. Nobody but you said "10". I know of several and as of right now 3/4's have stopped. The reason the NTPA will be out these tractors is these guys are not red or blue and to make their particular color competitive they would have to run the V-8. 2. No, the rules already state that you CANNOT run the ag type block in the LSS class. One can only run the 2 wheel drive type blocks. 3. The future of the class is color and nothing should be done to limit color. Rules should be made once a particular style of tractor dominates to make it fair for the complete field, not ban it. 4. New tractors are always being built and it takes a lot of money to build one. 5. I wonder why you cannot sign your name? |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Cross dress it
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U can run any sheet metal u want. Cross dress it. There is a shop that specializes in installing the IH in other brands. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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hilltopper
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ntpa might as well do like nascar and spec out a "tractor of tomorrow" and then everyone can run the same basic drivetrain and run the sheetmetal of their choice.im so glad i got to see forty years of tractor pulling before it went down the tubes like every other motorsport |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ted dunham
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Yes you can, but who want's to do that? If your color is Oliver Green and your running a Ford Blue engine, your not running Oliver Green. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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been watching
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if your running a skidder rear end your not running red green or blue oreange fits that what a joke some may runn an origanal decal thats the closest thing to the real tractor out there v8 s should be allowed if you dont like that we have llss that are true colers |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ted dunham
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Not sure where your going, but there is no way a factory rear end would hold up with today's power. If the power plant is a red power plant, that is the sheet metal it should wear. |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Benk - Todd did NOT say he wanted to band the V-8's in Illinois. If you were at the Zone Meeting last Sunday and got that impression when he was speaking, I apologize because that was not his intent! He wants the Illinois LSS pullers to be thinking about V-8s running in Illinois and come to the December meeting with their thoughts on the idea. Hopefully, the Illinois LSS class can come up with a solution. Who knows where this whole V-8 issue is going??? Someday we might own a tractor with a V8. I'll drive the V8 and Todd can have the 6 cylinder! --Beth Maedge |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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asker
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So some non NTPA members are going to come to a meeting in Ohio in the middle of winter when they weren't interested in coming in decent weather when they could take in a pull the day before? I'll believe THAT when I see it! |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Asker - I'm not talking about NTPA. I was talking about allowing the V-8s at the Illinois state level, particularly ITPA. I was addressing a comment made in an earlier post by Benk regarding an Illinois IH tractor. The Illinois Tractor Pullers Association (ITPA) holds their zone meetings in the Sep-Oct time frame and then has their annual meeting in December each year at Springfield, IL. You are right, the weather can get ugly at that time of year, but the banquet held after the meetings is so worth the trip! Thanks to everyone who donates their time to organizing the ITPA banquet each year. You guys do an awesome job and I so look forward to attending each year!--Beth Maedge |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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Anonymous User
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Beth- our banquet is in January. You should get an invitation via the USPS. You will enjoy that. Two words-pedal pull!
Carl Downs |
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Re: V-8 outlawed in LSS even no domination. Run V-8's & 6 cyl together, but seperate
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ohhhhhhh
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I wonder why my posts and Teds' post don't come up now. |
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2013 NTPA Pre Commit list: Where are all the V6s?
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The Great Karnak
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So, maybe a couple v6s threatened to boycott if NTPA allowed v8s in the LSS. Or more accurately, they were always allowed but banned. My question is: Where are all these v6s? There are only 5 signed up for Pre Commit. Perhaps if NTPA had showed intestinal fortitude and left the rule alone, they could have had a full show signed up with the guys listed on this thread. Food for thought. |
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Re: 2013 NTPA Pre Commit list: Where are all the V6s?
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hmm
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Who pulls with a V6? |
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