01:05:24pm, Sunday, May 19, 2024
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Cheater Turbo
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Curious
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After reading the UPA post below I am wondering what people are calling a "Cheater Turbo". What are some of the turbo tricks that the classes are using. Not trying to stir the pot just get educated.
Thanks |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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just sayin
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Go to the UPA website and read the turbo rule for the farmstock class. Any turbo that doesn't meet those specific criteria should be illegal. Any turbo that does meet those specific criteria may get you within 20 feet of the lead on a good day. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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confused????
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why doesn't UPA stop those guys from running the wrong turbos?? that is not right!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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turbos
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Unless you are a turbo "Guru" finding some of the tricks and modifications is quite difficult. Most pulling organizations don't have a true turbo checking expert. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Curious
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How do these groups police turbos. UPA restricts the turbo sizes in its one class. Can you run a larger turbo chocked down to it's inlet size or do you have to pick a turbo at that size. Trying to understand your meaning of cheater. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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tech man plus
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as a tech man you must always do the right thing--if you stick to the rules, you will always be OK---people respect that I found out |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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This is true, but when the tech man says it is ok to run the illegal turbo's and the ones with the legal turbo's complain and they are the ones checked and the illegal ones not checked, the tech man is worthless. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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tech man plus
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i don't know if your season is over or not, BUT if this was true, i would demand points be taken away from those violating the rules--do you have a meeting in the winter? have the rule infraction brought up! surely people that pull in the other classes within that club see this too and should demand action be taken!! it could happen to their class next year!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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The season is over and points will not be taken away from the cheaters.The cheaters were encouraged by the President and Vice- President of the club who (VP) doesn't have a tractor, and are also the tech men, so not action will probably not be taken at any winter meetings. How is that for a so called fair and professional club that they claim to be. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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lawsuit
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someone should probably just file a lawsuit against the club. i've seen that threatened and people straighten up real quick. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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sir ribbons
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A lawsuit.....really.
Judge- "Sir, we are awarding you settlement in the sum of five ribbons and a trophy. In addition we will allow you to compete next year to be able to recieve the same said ribbons and trophy as long as you continue to pay your dues and hook fees." |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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the point
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you're missing the point...It would never get to court. no clubs have money, time, or desire to fight it. mostly money. if there really is that much corruption going on, file it and see how quick it gets fixed. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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betting man
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I would bet the turbos in question are legal, due to the rule interpretation, or the rule as written is too lax.
Remember, if the rule doesn't say you can't, you can. Does the rule specify a "box turbo" or does everyone ASSUME since a certain size is called out, everyone has to run a certain turbo? If the rule doesn't specify a part number, and specifications, and say no modifications, then all that is open. Does the rule state, no billet wheels? If not, a billet wheel is legal. Does the rule state you can't neck down a larger turbo? If not, then you can. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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class question?
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what the heck class is this? i thought it was a FARM STOCK class...sounds like what people are saying it's Unlimited superstock or something..... |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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just sayin
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Bull crap, from top to bottom. Since your statement begins with "I would bet", I would bet you have absolutely zero personal familiarity or firsthand knowledge about UPA or the issue at hand. The rule states, among other things, that the turbo be OEM or 3LM-466. The tractors running turbos that are neither OEM or 3LM-466 are ILLEGAL. PERIOD! If the rule doesn't say you can, then you can't. This is the position of just about any real sanctioning body that you want to name. The converse of this, as phrased by you, is a cheater's crutch and a coward's excuse. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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rule
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Can some post the entire turbo rule word for word. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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turbos
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I'm with "betting man" a 3lm 466 turbo can be alot of things. Thats like saying its a 400 series block for a IH, or a 466 crank in a Deere. Those vague descriptions do not describe exactly whats in the item or how it is being used cubic inch wise. Do you get my point. Working in the gray area of a non descriptive rule is part of being a competitor. Open your eyes "just saying" and your mind will follow. The rule need more details to narrow down the options for your competitors. This same rule is in multiple clubs, and they fight the same battle. Problem is to find the modifications from the exterior are nearly impossible. A box turbo rule with a random claimer rule swap using dice and the pulling order unannounced every so often, would help subdue the customized turbos. A simple claimer rule never works. A mandatory swap of turbos throughout the class would, as long as it not announced prior to the swap. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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just sayin
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"Gray Area" is another term often used by cheaters. Kind of like a child making excuses when caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The rule says what it says, and it is very plain and clear to honest competitors. For those who like to see things in shades of gray, please humor me with an explanation as to how a plainly worded OEM or 3LM rule permits the use of any turbo that is not OEM or 3LM to begin with, nor even uses any OEM or 3LM components. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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unmodified
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The rule does not say unmodified 3lm. It just says 3lm right so i dont see anything that says you cant modify it. Its still a 3lm. Just like a 13mm rotary is still a factory appearing pump. Its not factory specs inside but it meets the "rules" or do you consider that cheating too. Geez get over being smoked |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
Dont have a rat in this race but heres the rule word for word.
Stock appearing turbo or 3lm 466 Maximum turbo 2.33 inlet no slots or slugs. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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turbos
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It appears you just cant keep up with what we are "just saying", let alone tractor pulling! Instead of trying to insult one of us giving clear cut advice, try to understand what we are saying. This advice is trying to help, not hurt you or the club you are pulling in. Like I suggested earlier, as others did as well... get the rule changed so it is more specific. Rule as written: "Stock appearing turbo or 3lm 466. Maximum turbo 2.33 inlet no slots or slugs. The pump rule, as referenced earlier is also stock appearing. The word "appearing" is the problem. That is open's a pandora's box of options that still would fall within your rule. So as I try to help by giving you suggestions on how to handle the situation. Please stop continuing to spread that someone is cheating if they are actually within the rule. If you don't like the rule... vote to get it changed. This same rule, leads to this same argument, across multiple clubs who vent on this website. Each time the clear solution is get the rule to reflect the needs of the majority of the club; changed, clarified, or left alone. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Anonymous User
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If you want to go and have tons of competition and fun, no complaints,run what you brung,GO TO INDIANA PULLS, bring your bad farm stock tractor, if you win your one,your one of the best in the country, GOOD LUCK! They have very few rules and it makes it easy. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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By what you are saying a HX50 with a 2.33 inlet would be legal. Would a 3LM- 466 Special be legal? It has 3LM-466 on the tag and is stock appearing. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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doe, a deere........
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"we need a place to pull, a club with honesty and integrity and all pullers are treated fairly"...........................fix this rule then please---I'm tired of reading about it!!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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deere hunter
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Good point Doe!
As the rule is written right now, every turbo that folks are whining about is perfectly LEGAL !!!! Fix the rule AND stfu. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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UPA fan
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by not enforcing this rule and letting people slide is killing our club!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DQ the cheaters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I don't have dog in this fight, but if the rules simply state: Stock appearing turbo or 3lm 466. Maximum turbo 2.33 inlet no slots or slugs it means
Stock appearing – this means you can do whatever you want under the compressor cover and exhaust housing as long as it still appears stock from the outside, the 2.33 inlet applies. (Just like everyone does with a "stock appearing pump" please don't tell me there aren't bigger plungers in there!) Or 3lm 466 - this means you can use a 3lm-466 turbo, it doesn’t say a "stock" 3lm, it just says 3lm. This means you could modify the 3lm and do whatever you want under the housings as long as it's still a 3lm and as long as it conforms to the 2.33 inlet. Do the rules say anything about "box" or "unmodified" or "unaltered"? If not then it's pretty clear you can modify the turbos according the wording of the rules. If you don't like the rules then either: a. Get the rule changed/wording clarified b. Don't pull there To just sayin, you stated, "If the rule doesn't say you can, then you can't"… sorry but I disagree. Sometimes the rules state what you can't do, sometimes the rules state what you can do, and sometimes it's does both/neither. Do the rules say you can wear a green jacket? According to your logic since the rules don't say you can then you can't? What about a red jacket, is that in the rules? Since the rules don't say anything about jacket color then it would fall into that "gray area". I'm fairly certain that you can indeed wear a jacket of either color. These rules seem to be very "gray". In this instance, what you can and can't do is open to a great degree of interpretation. I don't know if the rules are intentionally vague or not, but they are vague none-the-less. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
"3lm 466 - this means you can use a 3lm-466 turbo, it doesn’t say a "stock" 3lm, it just says 3lm. This means you could modify the 3lm and do whatever you want under the housings as long as it's still a 3lm and as long as it conforms to the 2.33 inlet."
Jake, I disagree, a 3LM-466 fully specifies both wheels. It's not like the 'HX82' where Holset offered several different wheels under that model. All 3LM's have the same turbine wheel & the 466 designates a specific compressor wheel. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Therein lies the "gray area". How to define a 3lm-466 is unclear.
None-the-less, no matter how you define a 3lm-466, an extremely modified 3lm would still be legal as long as it's "stock appearing" and as long as it still has a 2.33 inlet because it is still covered under the "stock appearing" provision portion of the rule (Stock appearing turbo or 3lm 466 ). The word "or" really opens things up, the way the rule is written any 2.33 inlet turbo is legal as long as it appears "stock". Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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just sayin
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Being an open minded person who likes to think he can take good advice, I decided to reread the rules from the popular "if it doesn't say I can't then I can" perspective. Boy, you guys were right! I sure have been missing the boat by not exploiting the "gray areas". Here are some ideas I came up with:
The weight classes are defined as 11000, 12000, and 13500, but the rules don't specifically state whether those weights are minimum or maximum. This constitutes a gray area. Since more weight is advantageous, I choose to interpret the rule as those being the minimum allowable. Makes me sick to think that I have been at or under those weights all this time when I should have been carrying all I have room for. The drawbar rule says "maximum of 20" from the ground", but it doesn't say from the ground in what geographical area of the world. Yippee! Another gray area! Since the earth is 7901 miles (give or take) in diameter straight through to China, be assured I'll be running a drawbar height never before imagined to take advantage of all that additional front weight I can now have. Drawbar rule also says "minimum of 18" from center of rear axle housing", but it doesn't specifically state that the measurement be taken from the rear axle housing the tractor is actually using. Gray areas abound! I'll just hang a lawn mower rear end up under the belly somewhere and take my measurement from that. This, in addition to the new height, may mean the sled guy is going to need a longer chain.............. Didn't see any mention whatsoever about methanol injection, propane, oxidizers, or that I even have to run diesel fuel in the first place. A belt driven supercharger sounds like something to look into, too. Rules don't say I can't, ya know. They sure didn't think their pump rule out very well, either. "Stock appearing injection pump for make and model...etc". Puhleeeese! I don't see anything that says I can't run two or more stock appearing pumps, or that the stock appearing pump actually has be the one supplying fuel. Yep, gray area. According to my interpretation, it just has to be ON THERE somewhere. I'll just fasten the stock appearing pump up under there somewhere with some baling wire or sheet metal screws and put a Sigma where it really matters. Since I've now imagined the injection pump rules to my favor, I'm going to need more air. Lots more. I've got it! Did any of you guys see it written anywhere that I can't have multiple stock appearing or 3LM-466 turbos? Me neither. Wait till the tech man gets a load of this rig! They're gonna drive themselves bananas trying to sew up all these loopholes. Expect the rulebook to be much, much heavier next season. Since I'm new to this gray area thing, I still need some help from those more experienced in these matters. Still trying as hard as I can to figure out how, when the rule says what it does, it is somehow ok to run a turbo that is not stock appearing or 3LM-466, because that is what the whole issue with UPA is about. I asked the question before and did not get an answer. Maybe it's not okay after all? |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
Drawbar rule also says "minimum of 18" from center of rear axle housing", but it doesn't specifically state that the measurement be taken from the rear axle housing the tractor is actually using. Gray areas abound! I'll just hang a lawn mower rear end up under the belly somewhere and take my measurement from that. This, in addition to the new height, may mean the sled guy is going to need a longer chain.............. Didn't see any mention whatsoever about methanol injection, propane, oxidizers, or that I even have to run diesel fuel in the first place. A belt driven supercharger sounds like something to look into, too. Rules don't say I can't, ya know. They sure didn't think their pump rule out very well, either. "Stock appearing injection pump for make and model...etc". Puhleeeese! I don't see anything that says I can't run two or more stock appearing pumps, or that the stock appearing pump actually has be the one supplying fuel. Yep, gray area. According to my interpretation, it just has to be ON THERE somewhere. I'll just fasten the stock appearing pump up under there somewhere with some baling wire or sheet metal screws and put a Sigma where it really matters. Since I've now imagined the injection pump rules to my favor, I'm going to need more air. Lots more. I've got it! Did any of you guys see it written anywhere that I can't have multiple stock appearing or 3LM-466 turbos? Me neither. Wait till the tech man gets a load of this rig! They're gonna drive themselves bananas trying to sew up all these loopholes. Expect the rulebook to be much, much heavier next season. Since I'm new to this gray area thing, I still need some help from those more experienced in these matters. Still trying as hard as I can to figure out how, when the rule says what it does, it is somehow ok to run a turbo that is not stock appearing or 3LM-466, because that is what the whole issue with UPA is about. I asked the question before and did not get an answer. Maybe it's not okay after all? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2012 04:20AM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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jerry springer
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Geez...... is this really that difficult? Go to the rule committee and ask for the rule to be clarified to addition the word unmodified to the 3lm466. If the wont change it, go buy a big wheel 3lm and kick everyons butt. I mean , afterall thats why its so easy for the cheaters to beat you. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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looking in
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talked to a puller thats pulled with upa, he knows he is illegal but has not ever been checked, he just comented that until they check and tell him he is illegal he wont change, my thought is if you want to run the big charger then step up and pull the pro farm classes |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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UPA FAN
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we got way more issues than this rule!! we let a guy go out of bounds and keep his pull!! we got people that won't enforce the other rules! I will not pull with this club next year!! the reason this club started has not been followed due to the flagger with the straw hat that always causes trouble! he truly is a big cheater!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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That is what I have talked about on here all the time about the UPA is the big cheater in the straw hat. It's his way or no way and he complains about it until he get his way and he has his favorites. He is way I would never pull with the UPA to begin with. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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wondering..........
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do promoters know this kind of confussion is taking place? NOT GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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red runner
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The same stuff goes on in the club we run ( american farm pullers ass). Maybe Sled sports the club vp could focus on his clubs problems before giving opinions on some other club! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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just maybe
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Maybe you should take that up with Sledsports and his organization. We are talking about the UPA here. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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wow
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Guess just maybe needs a diaper change, if there is so much cheating going on, why is it that there is only a couple of you complaing, where is the tech committe or the board members, why havent they done anything about it |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
I think you should. I want to see as many people happy as i can. I know i cant make everyone happy but i can try. So lets try and resolve the problem you got. Lets hear it, whats the problem? Come on, dont be shy |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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me
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tech guys cann't do any thing as long as the turbo says 3lm, it needs to state un,odified or box 3lm 466. it's not this complicated, stop crying about it, the tech guys are not to blame you can't enforce a rule that isn't there....step up your game to play by the rules written or keep gettin beat, but dont call people cheaters just because they beat you |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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They can't beat me because I don't pull with them. Their rules are no good because they still cheat. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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here we go again
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Guess the water in bushnell and cuba must be a little different |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Snoop
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Just a few more super farmers in training.
Once their mommies take the training wheels off, LOOK OUT!! Illegal hay rake hitches, chrome spinner knobs, and sooty roll cages. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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oh no!!!
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hey snoop--why don't we give all you superfarmers our flagger in the straw hat!! that would solve 1/2 of our problems right there!! and NO!!! you can't send him back if you take him!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Church Mouse
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He may go there and not want to come back. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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WOW!
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THAT WOULD BE GREAT!!! HE COULD BE V.P. OF THEIR CLUB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
Send him over here. He can have my job. That way i can just sit on the trailer till its time to pull then load up and go home. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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ttpp
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And that would be any differant than what you do now? All new people running the AFPA would be a blessing!
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
Come on down! You can do it, he11 i dont do nothing anyways. Jump right on in there and get you a bite. |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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ttpp
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now your telling it straight finally. You'll have to give up some power if you step down though and that would be to much for a good old boy to do like you big J!
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Registered: 01/31/2013 Posts: 46 |
You gonna hook me up with some water injection? |
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Re: Cheater Turbo
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Sorry, been out of comission for a while. WHO CARES????????????? |
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