01:06:05am, Saturday, May 18, 2024
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tired of it
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Posts: 167 |
I know that alot of people are going to disagree with me here but here it goes anyway.
I am tiered of reading about people complaining about this Hypermax block saying there needs to be cube limits and boost pressure limits. I just want to ask you then what do you have to say about the prostocks only having one turbo that have split blocks aspecially the big block were the cube limit is reached with just a small over bore witch is taking no intererty from the block. Then they are the same people that that say that the engine block has to follow with the brand while they think that it is great that Domanns Agco is the greatest thing sence sliced bread when the engine powering it is essentually a Dt IH that was designed for the Magnums and latter sold to Detriot from IH. So tell me what the dfferance is??? Also Jake just stated how NHRA lowered the cubic inches and advanced their tecnology creating more horsepower but doesn't state that none of the "cars" above prostock or using forced induction are using the companies block that matches the body. I don't think that John Force is using a Ford block because he is running a Ford body, and I sure there is no Toyota block capiable of withstanding 7000HP. Maybe the tractors that are N/A could use the factory blocks because that is were NHRA ends it. If pullers turily want to step up with the times then there should be billet block. I don't understand how no one is complaining about Carl Attley's Ohio Cat having a billet block but Hypermax having a cast block WAAAHHHOOO stop the presses. I would think that every SSD,SSO, PS or SSL would be Knocking the door down to get a billet block. How many pullers would go back to a cast pistion? It only makes sence. I feal that if a manufacture would make enough billet blocks to keep the cost down and design it for high peformance and low maintenceance then all sanctioning bodies could stanardize this one engine( just like NHRA) then pulling will trully enter the 21st centry. Just think how much simplier it would be in the long run. Bash away Chucky |
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Re: tired of it
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Posts: 167 |
One more thing. Think how much simpilar the rules could be if the block was built for X amount of cubes.
Prostock one turbo billet block Super 4 turbos billet block Light 4 turbos billet block All heads, cranks, rods could be the same making for less spare parts. Chucky |
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Re: tired of it
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correctorater
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Well,,,, NHRA fuel teams use different blocks.
JFR is using what they are calling a Ford block, it is billet (or forged) but it is not a KB hemi block. KB didn't make very many billet blocks and is out of business. C/N makes blocks and BAE makes them, as do some others. So the NHRA folks do have some choices on block configurations. Lots of different head and induction configurations are available. I agree, the classes designated SUPER STOCK should be able to run a billet or forged block. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Actually they have a tractor class for billet blocks, it’s called Modified. Build a huge billet block any size you want and put whatever hood on you want and go pulling. Go crazy and put the biggest billet steel chunk you can, make it 1200 CID, put 500 lbs of boost to it, with three billet pumps. Make it into a 6030 Deere, wait, I take that back, I think I like 5010 a little better. Or you could call it a John Deere, a Bug Budd, a Versitile, a Kubota, heck you can call it what ever you want, put a five foot wide John Deere A hood on it, paint it blue, put Deutz fenders on it, and register it as a IH1066. No rules say you cann't run one in the Mods. I’d encourage everyone to build one and hook in the Mod class. If enough people build them they will start a new class for you. Maybe they can call it the “Super Almost Somewhat Stock” tractor class.
Non-tractor blocks are the whole reason the Modified tractor class was started. Sure they can have multi-motors now, but they started out as single non-tractor motors. The last thing “Stock” on these Super Stocks and Pro Stocks is the block. To me it’s the heart of the tractor. To me the block is everything (well almost everything, as long as it matches sheet metal!). For the people who cry that John Deere and other tractor companies don’t support pulling in the US… are you serious! Why would any company support a sport with a 640-680 limit when the vast majority of the product they sell are approximately 500 cubic inches. If you really can’t figure out why manufacturers support the Euro Pro Stock class but not the US Pro Stock class then please send your money to the guy buying your parts from the Bank of Nigeria, oh, and by the way you also just won the UK lottery, all you need to do is give them your credit card number! It obvious why no manufacturers would ever support a class with limits like we have in the US. I predict that the tractor classes that adopt/allow billet blocks will be the classes that die. The tractor classes that stay “tractor” and especially the tractor classes with a 505-510 limit will be the ones left standing when all the dust settles in 10-20 years. I say run the billet blocks in the mod class where they belong. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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Hey guys how many supers out there are running magnum sheet metal and running a dt block? You are so worried about matching motors and metal. Chew on that for a few minutes. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Maybe you’re new to the page but I’ve stated numerous times that I think motors and sheetmetal should match. By the way, it’s not just Magnums, but MX’s, MXM’s, Puma’s and now even 1206’s with a DT466, where does it end? The other brands aren’t any different either, it’s way out of hand, and getting worse every year. I honestly believe we are not far from an Agco hooded Deere, or worse yet, a cookie cutter Billet blocked class with any hood you want. Some people may like cookie cutter but if you ask me, that’s not even close to real variety. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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No i am not new to the board, i have seen you post numerous times about matching blocks and sheet metal. Well how many deeres out there are running newer sheet metal and a 619. John Raymonds 7930, 619 destroked to 534. I didnt know that the 619, or 10.1 whatever you may chose to call it, was in the 7930 and met teir 3 emissions. Its not just a red game of mixing blocks and sheet metal. If we couldn't mix sheet metal and motors with in a color how many 6030's would we have? Everyone and their brother runs a big block deere and stuff somewhere in the 4000 range sheet metal on it, weither it be 4010, 4440, 4455, whatever it is. Whos to say that GMS cant build a billit 466 deere block? Hyper obviously would if they put the money and time into this 4 bolt main motor for red. And im sure that someone would pick up the orange ones. Massy could make a come back also. It wouldnt be a cookie cutter class because people would still want to run true to the color/type of engine. If its a deere they would want a billit block 466. Its the safest route out, theres no way to control boost, the pullers would never go for it. But for this to ever happen NTPA has to allow it in the rules to get anyone to comit to building these blocks. And thats a long shot off. I know looking at the pictures of Thomas' tractor i dont want to be the flag man standing on that 50 foot line when it lets loose going by me, how do you feel about that? |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
Not trying to start anything here but about 10 years ago I asked about a IH block with a Case hood. The person in charge said NO because it was not following product lines. When I replied that an IH block in a CaseIH hood is not either since Tennaco bought out IH and built Case/IH I was at first met with resistance. Then when I said I would take it further to get it or else the IH would have to take off Case/IH hoods I was told to go ahead and do it. That was not the point and I didn't do it. My point was I did want a Case engine in a Magnum Case/IH hood and that wasn't getting allowed either. Well actaully that had more legitimacy than an IH engine in a Magnum hood. My point is I agree with Jake to keep the block matching the hood by manufacturers very close. I can still see a BBJD in either a 5010, 5020, 6030 or whatever else numbers use a BB but not putting it in a 4020 etc hood. We have the same problem around here with me wanting to put a 504 case block in a 930. The group of people around here don't want that either yet it is ok to have a 466 in either a 806 or 560. One person even said something about a 530??? AC engine in a D21 instead of the 426. I said well if agricultural like it is in combine then go for it since it is under ci limit. Then I was told well that is not the point. Many people want this the red/green class and want to favor their tractor but not let the competitor have a chance. Make it equal with Jake's proposed class and watch it blossom just like the LSS is starting to regain with many colors/brands/or whatever you want to call it. Elmer's Repair and I have talked about how much people comment when running other colors how nice it is to see other colors brought out and be competitive. Let's get the White, MF Case, Ford, NH, etc involved again instead of letting them fade away. This can also bring back more interest like when the SF was started thanks to some foresight by the late Ed Hopp. |
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restricter plate pulling
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what's braking these motor blocks?? isn't it all the boost that everbody wants so they can make the most horsepower?? what if the boost was limited with a spec. wastegate?? we already have spec. turbos, turbo limits, pump limits, cid limits... this most likely would become the same thing that Nascar has at Daytona...I know I don't have a horse in this race though I would like one (LSS), but if too much horsepower is what is blowing up these motors, then that's what your going to have to control.......I think these boards are a great place to learn about some of these things.
...shoot away.......Marty Nies |
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Re: tired of it
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You know who...
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Your argument doesn't hold Jake. GM, Ford, Dodge and Toyota support Nascar and NHRA. How much of those cars is actually a "real" car. You have the right to feel that way but for most spectators (notice I used spectator and not fan since a large proportion of people in the stands are not fan, they are one-or-two timers) so for most spectator in the stands, it does not matter what's under the hood as long as it looks like a Deere or a Case or whatever you want. So what is important is that those tractors put on a good show which means reliable, powerfull and colorfull. I for one think that tractor classes should be limitted to turbochargers and no superchargers just so they remain with somewhat of a "stock" sound to them.
The same rethoric was used when component chassis were allowed. They would not be tractors anymore. How has it hurt the show? You are a true "purist" and I wish we had more people like you to support our sport. But the plain fact is that, again, most people who attend any event come once or twice a year to see a good show. Just like they could go to a monster truck show or a concert. Since they decided to spend their entertainment money with us, we have to give the best show possible. If that means eventually using billet blocks, so be it. Actually, I think it would be a great challenge to build one of the first ones. But that's just me. Do like the truck classes did and make the rule so they have to swing a stock crank, cubic inch limit and then let us play! What kind of odd hood could I be using... |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
In Nascar the engine is manufactured by Ford, Chevy, Dodge Toyota... just like it should be. Just like a Super Stock and Pro Stock should have engines manufactured by the original maker. I don’t care if it’s a Cummins, Detroit, IH, or Deere, as long as it came from the factory like that.
I would argue that the Twd truck class would have much more brand loyalty if they had stayed with a manufacturers block. Can you imagine if you actually got to cheer for a Ford with a Ford block, or a Toyota with a Toyota block… a 358 blown manufacturer’s small block Twd Truck class would be an interesting class to watch. When everyone runs the same block it’s not as exciting to me. I like to know what I’m cheering for is what it says it is. Brand loyalty is one of the biggest selling points of this sport. Nascar recognized early on that their fans were diehard loyalist. Maybe someday people in tractor pulling will figure out that their fans are even more loyal to a given brand. If you take that brand loyalty away to loose a ton of appeal for many of those fans, including me. A billet blocked IH is no more an IH than the Funny Farmall is an IH. You can probably even get a DT550 crank to swing in some aftermarket aluminum block right now, and that tractor should run in the same class as the Funny Farmall. There’s only one pieces to be brand loyal about these days, and that’s the block, after that we’ve got nothing. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Me again
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I'm not saying the pulling crowd does not care for brand. Quite the contrary. Louisville is certainly the best example to that. And while we agreed to disagree a long time ago, we're looking for the same outcome: More color and even competition. We just think it should be achieved a different way. I think what matters most is the sheet metal and to retain somewhat of a "stock" and modern look and you think it's the engine block.
I would probably agree with your argument if rules were made such that current technology (and therefore current sheet metal) could be used. But it's far from being the case. Even the LSS is "old girls in new dresses" . To be able to go as you wish, we should need to be able to use 4 valve heads, electronic fuel injection etc. Personnaly, I'm all for it. And your idea of a new PS class goes along those lines. Just need to push it a little more. But as long as all we can use is old technology and try to make the best of it, and find holes in the rule books to use engines that should not have been allowed, sheet metal upgrades will be needed for the current MXU owner (who by the way is driving a Fiat tractor but that's another subject), to relate to what they have in front of them, more so than to know if the block was casted in 1968 in a IH foundry or milled at my place last winter. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I agree completely, I think it really comes down to four options to get more brand variety:
I honestly think option 2 will lead to any hood over any block. It will start with a few aftermarket blocks for each brand, then before you know it people would be arguing that it shouldn’t matter what crank swings in the block because it’s a billet crank anyway. So we’ll be allowing any combination imaginable. When it’s done it probably won’t fit any tractor crank. In time one supplier will dominate and almost everyone will run that block. Then we’ll have a very, very cookie cutter tractor class with everyone running the same thing, and some just running them harder that the others. You might even know of a class where almost everyone runs something from one engine builder that’s almost identical now! I honestly believe this option will do much more harm than good in the long term. However, it’s probably the road pulling will go down, if there’s a way to do it wrong, pulling will find that way! We did 4 for way too long, and it hurt the sport. It alienates a huge portion of the fan base and even though it’s an option that’s still on the table we should try and learn from history for once. Again, pulling is good at doing nothing and pretending everything is great so they might just stay with option 4, especially since it’s the wrong thing to do. Whether the sport follows 2 or 4, my suggestion would be to simultaneously develop option 3. Start planning now, plan logical rules and classes. Plan rules that embrace current technology and reflect current offerings from manufacturers. Whether you view option 3 as a contingency plan or a future plan… pulling needs to give it a chance to be a viable plan. Give it time to develop. Be patient and give it the a chance to crawl then walk. Give current technology, disenfranchised “off-brand” pullers, guys that want to build a modern tractor, people who like to think outside the box, and most importantly people who still love the older tractors a place to pull. Write rules that a fair and most importantly, forward thinking. I didn’t know who I was disagreeing with, but my father called me after he checked the IP address last night. So I’ve got three questions for you: How come you haven’t registered a user name (or two) yet? How’s the new chassis coming? How’s the family? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Me again
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I thought you'd figure it out... Last time I voiced a similar opinion, my words got taken out of context 6 months later and I was described as a snob who thought very little of the fans... to put it mildly. Which couldn't be further from the thruth. And honestly, I haven't had time to follow your forum the last few months.
Familly is doing real well and growing fast. New chassis should be ready in the next couple weeks. Then the real fun starts. Maybe we should wait and see before we put the engine in. 4 valves, OHC at 510 cubes. I think I'd be interested... And this time, we'll use an off brand. Promised! Hope we get to cross paths next Summer. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
We’ll if any puller cares for the fans it’s you. I’ve seen you behind the mic and I’ve seen you interact with the fans and you’re a class act all the way around. Anyone who’s seen you at a pull would quickly be able to see that you and your family are as fan oriented as anyone. You’re probably the most fan friendly and approachable team in your class.
There’s always something that can be taken out of context, I don’t worry too much about it anymore. Lord knows I’ve said more than my share of things that could be taken out of context, come to think of it, I said my share of dumb things that can be taken in context! If I had a nickel for every time someone was mad at me for something I said, I’d probably be able to pull in your class, in fact a few years ago your class would have funded my tractor! Hope to see you this summer, can’t wait to see the new chassis. This 510 OHC class has a different kind of injection though, they use water! You’d have to shake a decades worth of dust off of your synapses. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Me again
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Those synapses are long gone. Burnt by fumes... |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 06/25/2008 Posts: 43 |
Are you saying IH - JD - Case-Oliver- MM- and the rest all use the same block. And what crank? Or one billit crank, not JD or IH. Or build several blocks for several different brands of cranks and heads? Just Asking dont want my butt chewed. |
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Re: tired of it
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Posts: 167 |
I don't think brand lolaty should matter it should be what ever is best to cost to build, strenght, and low maintenace. Witch might not have any thing to do with and manufacture. There is already one billet block out there based off of the 5.9 Cummins it might be a good spot to start I don't know.
I do know that there is a lot of people more intelligent then me out there that do or could figure it out. My main fear is that sooner or later someone will be seriouslly injured or kill( like what been happening to Monster trucks) then we will all be paying the piper. Preventive maintenance is the best place to start. With this block slitting issue I just dont see a way of limiting cubes, boost, heads, or rpms that with time woun't beover come then we will be back a square one again. Like I said in my earlier post we have prostocks spliting block so limiting boost on the supers would not be enough. I just feel that cast blocks and for that matter anything cast has potental to explode. Who would allow a cast flywheel in a performance tractor although it may perform well and last many season but we all know what the outcome may be. I thank you Jake for having this board although you may not agree with me on this topic my feeling say that in the long run it will be the best money spent at all levels. As far as this stoping a major manufacture from sponsoring a tractor or pull, again look at NHRA. All major manufactorures are represented and only a few blocks being run none of witch came off of a factory assembly line. Also as far a building the engine to the point that the billet block will start to explode. Again I say look at NHRA and what the billet aluminum block take imange how much a billet steel one would take. Again thanks for letting me air my opinion Jake I'm just tired of every one complaining about the cast block, Hypermax, JD, IH, AC deal when the answer is right in front of us. Chucky |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
It's the fact that we disagree that makes this page fun! Thanks for the great posts.
As for safety, I think there are plenty of ways to make a stock block as safe as possible. Shrouding and tie downs can be engineered to contain anything in a worst case event. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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spun rod
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you all raise interesting points, however you seem to forget where the problem started. 680 cubes should never been allowed in the first place, and for that matter 640 in super farm should'nt have been allowed either. but it sure is a good way to keep hypermax and riverside and others to keep taking your money. think about it. pro stock should be 570 to 600 cubes,p pump, and whatever turbo you can turn. seems to me that would stop some block explosions.. i know we are not really talking about superfarm here, but they have dumb rules too. take a block, go out to 640, then put on a baby turbo; gee, briallant rule. again these rules only suit the red green parade. think i'm crazy?? just watch the limited pro numbers explode with probably many superfarmers going that route. and with tractors other than deere and ih. i'm sure this will draw some fire,,,,,,,,,,, so blast away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: tired of it
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RED POWER
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YOU HAVE A LOT OF GOOD POINTS. |
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Re: tired of it
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Jus' Watchin.
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The pro-stocks at NFMS were 4 great classes ! Doubt if I would be saying that if they were P-pumps @ 500 cu.in. !!! |
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Re: tired of it
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spun rod
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i think i said 600 for pros. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152 |
yeah - with a P-Pump you are pretty much stuck with a 4 inch turbo - no matter the cui. 500 cui with a billet CDS and intercooler will get you in the 4.6 + range and over 2500 hp Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: tired of it
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Jus' Bettin.
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You say 2500HP out of 500 cu. in. / intercooler ? Would bet that less than 1/2 of the 10- Pro class a NFMS was less than that ! |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152 |
Who actually knows how much power he makes?
We have thought we are in the 2700 hp range with our Allisons. With the EFI we had to learn we are just putting enough fuel in to barely make 3000 - and we know that damn supercharger alone takes more than 400 hp - not to speak about what it takes to turn the engine. So 2400 is probably a safe and realistic bet. Still that was enough power to several times beat combinations that are supposed to have over 4000 (twin Hemis and triple Chevy's) in the past season. The Valtra guys had their tractors on a dyno and they were making more than 2500 hp. One of them (dyno owner) told me following theory: Less stroke means more rpms - I think that is correct More rpms mean more open valve time - I think that is also correct More open valve time means more air flow - I am not sure what's the restriction, ports or valve open time More air flow = more peak hp The fact they can run pretty much the same chargers on the 510 cui engines as the US Pro Stocks run on the 600 + cui engines adds some substance to that theory though. This does not mean the engines will perform better on the track, as they would drastically loose tourque when rpms drop, and tourque is a BIG part of the game - if not THE part in pulling. On the other hand: A lot of race car engines using turbos (like Porsche) get destroked from their original configuration to handle more rpms and make more power ... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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You shouldnt have to make side shields and tie downs to keep eploding motors together. Thats dumb. I dont want to go to a pull knowing that blocks are coming apart, chunks of cast iron block are going to be flying at extreme force under the hood. Jake do you want to go to a pull with hot farm tractors turning 6000 rpms with cast flywheels but running blankets which are designed to keep them together if it blows apart which we know it will. Come on guys Danny Thomas split a block on a state level super thats supposibly only 436 cubes. How safe do you feel sitting in the stands or the pits with your young child knows that this tractor is going to go down the track and split a block and pistons and rods turning at 6000+ rpms are gonna be swinging freely outside the motor, BUT!!!!!! the side shields will keep it in. Yeah tell that one to the insurance company. You want to see more colors, with billit blocks you would everyone would be able to build a motor to compete no matter color. As stated before the Ohio Cat truck is running a billit 5.9L Cummins wanna be, thats 359 cubes, and he says hes in the 2000 hp range with it, thats alot of power out of not many cubes. I feel safer standing next to that Ohio Cat truck going down the track than i do most of our SSD, PS, Hot farm/altered tractors. These blocks were gettin 4 digit horsepowers out of were designed to put out, well i dont know of a tractor motor out there that has been rated for over 250 that we are running in these tractors. I feel alot safer next to that billit block ment to take that abuse than i do a deere 466 ment to handle 200 hp, or a dt 436 rated for 180 or so.
Well fire away... |
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Re: tired of it
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Cheaper
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To me Jake's hit the nail on the head. Why people continue to overlook the option of tie downs, etc just blows my mind. This can be done far cheaper than buying $20K billet blocks. Everyone keeps saying look at NHRA. Well, until tractor pulling gets to the Sponsorship & TV coverage, there is no way in heck, enough pullers can spend this type of money & continue to compete. The Class will Die should billets be allowed. |
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Re: tired of it
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Posts: 167 |
I don't see how you can say that spending $20,000 on a billet block is going to kill the sport when we already have pullers spending $15,000 -$25,000 on heads, $5000 on billet cranks,$10-15,000 on turbos, $10,000 injection pumps and the block is the foundation of the whole engine. How much is it costing these pullers to repair these engine after a block splits?? I beting far more the $20,000. I bet it would make the $20,000 look pretty cheap.
Would you build a house and not spend the extra money to have a good solid foundation or would you skimp on the gravel and concrete and just risk it???? As far as I'm concerned using a cast block is like building you house on marsh ground. Chucky |
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Re: tired of it
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compounded
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See IH Altered response as well. It's not just the incremental block expense, it's a compounding effect of other components. People are forgetting the internal parts have reached their limits as well. They break...guess what no more new billet block. Repairing it won't be cheap either. So building a new foundation requires building a new house! |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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You make an excellent point. |
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Re: tired of it
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Me again...
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So you're saying you'd rather see a stock block with a safety blanket all around it like fuel cars instead of a billet block?... How would you be able to tell it's a stock block then? |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
How can you tell it’s a stock block… that's like asking how can you tell what block is in it because the tractor has side shields! True fans, farmers, other pullers can tell a stock block the exact same way they can tell there's not three turbo charged V-8's under the side shields of a MX335 hood, it's the tech program and its careful observation. It’s also a trust issue, that’s why it’s difficult for many fans to forgive cheaters.
By the way, tie downs and shielding are different from having a complete blanket. People are acting as if blocks are shattering into a million pieces and spraying cast iron over a three state area. Truth is… blocks are splitting, not shattering. It's been happening for years and the sky is not falling. There is an ever improving safety program that addresses all reasonably possible risk. I’m also a firm believer the properly engineered tie downs can not only contain a block failure, but if engineered correctly, a tie down could actually relieve some of the stress that the blocks is absorbing. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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Really Jake, an improved safety issue, ill tell you what that is, we all went from steel hoods to new fiberglass hoods because they will keep more in. The blocks are splitting and the pistons and rods are free swing outside the block. Its really safe. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I was only a few feet from Boxler and Early when they let go so you don’t need to tell me what a block can do. By the way, that fiberglass hood on The Special did a pretty darn good job. Yes it blew off, but it captured and contained the engine parts.
I’ve also seen a block break on a tractor that had tie downs. The tractor shook, and you could tell it was major but everything stayed under the hood and in place. The tie downs effectively mitigated the risk. Nothing in life will ever be 100% safe, Billet blocks will not be 100% safe, a stock block will not be 100% safe. The goal is to evaluate the risk, and find ways to mitigate the risk to an acceptable level. Mitigating risk can easily be done with a stock block. Maybe we need three cables on a stock block, two in front one in the rear. Maybe we need plates on the front and rear that tie the head down… maybe, maybe, maybe… I’m not engineering safety, but there are tons of simple and cost effective measures that can be put in place. I saw a video of the European New Holland Alcohol Super Stock named Silvia spit the crank out the bottom end in pieces. It looked like it could have been hugely dangerous if that happened while going down the track. Would a Billet block have solved that? Should they legislate Billet steel oil pans? We don’t need to overreact to a few incidents. By the way, there are currently other options for the pullers… GN rules allow any Ag block, so anyone can run a huge Ag motor decubed. No one is forcing anyone to use a DT466 or a JD466, they all have other options. Again, we already have a mod class for Billet blocks. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: tired of it
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,152 |
just found some old numbers from the Valtra page. This is from when they were still running P pumps.
Engine SisuDiesel 74 ETA Fortius Max. engine power, hp/rpm 2 100/6,500 Max. rpm 6,800 Max. Torque, Nm/rpm 2,050/3,800 No. of cylinders 6 / capacity 8,2 litres, 501 cui Fuel diesel Pump Bosch 7,100 modified 1 Turbocharger (5-6 bar), Intercooler, Water Injection Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: tired of it
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spun rod
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well, certainly alot of interesting dialouge here on the subject. here's my take on the deal. let's say the billet block rule passes. the cost i estimate to be roughly 25,000$. maybe more????? so now ya have a billet, unbreakable block. problem solved??? no, i don't think so. the billet block most certainly will allow for higher pressures. how long before holding the head down becomes a problem??? that's ok, buy another set of 2500$ ARP studs. the valves will surely cup easier, some guys are having trouble with that now. and ya think ya got bearing trouble now, you aint seen nothin yet. and now since the block won't bust to relieve pressure, guess what???? oops,BLOWN TURBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but that's ok, new charger is only 15,000$ for the good one; no problem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this billet block deal will only serve to make a bad situation worse. the cost of the package deal with all the problems will make the pro class self destruct because it is cost non effective. if billet blocks ever become a reality, i'm done. i've been pulling prostocks for 25 years, but i aint falling for this one. |
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Re: tired of it
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Posts: 167 |
Well maybe you are right. If we limit everyone to a 3x3 turbo that seems to be able to keep the blocks together, ohhh thats superfarm.. I would just like to know what you think is the best situation?? As stated there are SSD that are at the factory 436 cubes that are spliting blocks so cube limits are out. Limiting SSD boost pressure?? But there are Pro's spliting blocks with one charger so thats out. Even with Mod's or Unlimited how many are running factory GM, Ford, or Chrysler blocks??? I bet you would have to look hard to find one, and factory hyperformance does not count, as far as I'm concerned a factory high performance block is the same thing as a Hypermax block. I'm saying try to find a engine in a Mod, Unlimited, 2wd, or 4wd that orignially came out of a 74 Chevy K20 you will find few if any. So how is it that the Ag blocks should be any differant???
Chucky |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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Everyone, this was a very good discussion, top to bottom, without any name calling or anyone trashing anyone else's opinion. This is the kind of dialogue that will, hopefully lead to the future solutions. Although I still don't see one great solution that will "solve everything". Most purists want the tractor classes to look like tractors, have hoods that match the blocks/heads/rearends. Can't disagree with that but with all of the manufacturer "consolidation" in the last 20 years an arguement can almost be made for any combination. Also, there is the safety issue with the rearend. How long will it be until the insurance companies "dictate" component rearends in almost every class, if not every class? This would inferiate the purists, but I see it coming in a few years or less. The billet issue has valid arguements on both sides as well. Everyone wants an engine to be safe so that really isn't an arguement. With shrowding and/or tie downs, safety can be achieved. Cost is the real issue here. How do we keep the cost down on the PS and SSD classes in particular? Would billet blocks do that, since you would likely damage fewer motors? Or would it be only a short term solution until they are pushed hard enough to give as well? Also, good points about bearings, rods, etc..., becoming the next weak link if you go to billet block. |
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Re: tired of it
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smoke sreen
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come on people tell me how many blocks exploded, there were probably 5k hooks last years with multi charger tractors when you count all the local,state, national hooks and what was 2 or 3 blocks that exploded. this is just a smoke screen to get billet blocks or any block-any hood scam |
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Re: tired of it
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junkyard deere
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I think back to when I first started going to ntpa pulls, the heavy supers, and the pros were my favorite. Then, the alcohol burners started to own the heavy supers,blah. Being that the manufacturers never made a tractor over a hundred horse with sparkplugs, I wasnt real excited. I liked watching tractors that I could relate to the tractors I drove. Redline fever, 20 mule team, The workhorse...Eventually I accepted the alcohol burners, But pro stock became my favorite class. Then cme component chasis, and a little more tractor was lost.( by the way, if you want color, with component chasis opening up the any engine rule, all you need is a block. You can run anything billet you want, and larry peterson can build you a copetitive transmission, and you can pick your ring and pinion ratio in your rockwell rear end. Go build your billet aluminum headed, billet cranked, arias piston wielding, component kubota. Nobodys stopping you!) What difference is there between The mods and the sso class if you take away the oem block? I dont think nascar fans are cheering for a brand, more often for a driver, everyone knows there isnt anything to compare those cars with their cars anymore. Do we want tractor pulling to go this way? If you gotta have a billet block, then do it in the supers. Heck we could call them turbocharged, single engined mods. But leave pro,sf,pf alone. Then we can still call it a tractor pull. By the way, a special thanks to chris cain, larry shoppe, Dustin hook and the rest of the purebred tractor prostocks.Hey I still like ss alky burners, But I think its important that we keep tractors in a tractor pull. |
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Re: tired of it
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Anonymous User
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If things ever get boring on a message board, this subject always brings it to life! LOL. As far as the cookie cutter tractor issue I think we are already at that point. When you watch the pro stock class, and a lot of the super stock class and there is a green tractor it will probably be one of two models, same looking component chassis different paint scheme. I am not a JD fan but even I would appreciate seeing a 4430 or maybe a 4010. I still like Linder bros. tractor (though don't let my friends know about that). I too did not accept the alky burners in the diesel classes nor the component tractors for that matter, but I understand that the tractors are putting out more than a lot of transmissions and rear ends can handle these days so we can reason there existence, sooner or later I believe the engine blocks will meet the same fate. Thanks, Bruce |
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Re: tired of [ tired of it]
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NUFF SAID! |
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