05:55:39pm, Wednesday, May 08, 2024
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PPL and NTPA
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Greg k
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I see PPL is sanctioning Canfield and Galot and making Lt Pros a Silver Series class for 2021. HAS PPL actually established itself as the leading force in truck and tractor pulling ? |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Ohio79er
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Yes, I believe they are. It’s two totally different business models, but yes I would say you are seeing a changing of the guard. NTPA for to long has not taken the pullers seriously, especially at their local levels. They are driven by membership. So now you see the adoption of Classic Super, Pro-Farm, Hot Farm, LLSS. I believe NTPA will be the sanctioning body of what used to be “brush” classes and PPL will be the body of, as their name suggests Professional Pullers. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
This is a good point, and illustrates a lack of vision and leadership from NTPA/WPI. There is lots that could be said, but to me one huge point is one of the core classes - Super Stock. If I go to the NTPA website, I would see for 2021 in R2 a total of 4 HSS hooks and 0 LSS hooks. In my home state, the schedule is mostly unfilled, but they have 2 HSS hooks, both at Connersville where Chris Gettinger and Pfeiffers live. 0 LSS hooks at the moment. I suspect those will remain the only 2 HSS hooks and would not be surprised if there are zero LSS hooks, hope I'm wrong. It may be a chicken-and-egg situation, but if they don't run the SS class (or too few to make it workwhile), then why should a puller build for the class? Two thoughts: 1) I''m old enough to remember when PS became a new "economy" class in the early '80s. For a while, both SS and PS had hooks, but after SF, then Light Pro, then Limited Pro, then Hot Farm, then Classic SS and LLSS were added, their main classes pretty much fell off the schedule. There may be a place for all these classes, but the aggregate effect of choking out their top classes has cheapened the NTPA brand, imo. Meanwhile, the PPL state affiliate, Indiana Pulling League, appears to have a busy schedule for 2021 from what they've posted on their Facebook page. Not sure if they will run LSS in 2021, but they did in prior years. Looks like they may add TWD to their mix also. 2) Total abdication on the Open SS class. They totally gave up except for 1 event, though that is a huge event. For years, they kept losing pullers to PPL, and never addressed the underlying issue. Even with the 903 ban, it really didn't work and promoters didn't want to book the class. Now that they got rid of the 903 ban, their class as a Points class is dead by suicide, though BG may have a good class numbers. The 903 rule was a band-aid over the gaping wound of paying less than PPL. I believe wives of two prominent O/SS pullers that supported NTPA have indicated as much on interviews or message board posts. It's like having a headache caused by brain cancer. NTPA took a tylenol for the headache and ignored the cancer til it killed the class. If they aren't careful, their unlimited mod class will be in the same state of affairs within a few years. But, we can go watch limited pro diesel trucks and hot farms. It's not easy to be the leader in a competitive field. But.... being a leader means remembering how you got to be successful in the first place and keeping an eye on your identity. It means also looking at the way things are and not the way you want them to be... or the way they were thirty years ago. Maybe the new GN events in Tennessee, Minnesota, and Dodge City will be the opening shot in a new era, but I hope they can find a way to resurrect their state and regional level SS classes before there are no tractors left. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2021 02:27PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Disturbed MX
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Indiana pulling league is not the ppl state affliliate. Just a group of good people having fun making pulling great. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Greg k
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I for one for some unknown reason thought someday we would actually see necessary changes made at NTPA/WPI that would result in a more modern aggressive approach. We continue to see nothing but decline and more classes being sanctioned. I have followed NTPA very closely for the past 50 years and it saddens me to watch it become an outdated kind of pathetic organization with no major sponsorship, no innovation, and presumably no plan in sight. It is inevitable that PPL will soon be in a position to take over BG, Chapel Hill, Rockwell and other pulls. NTPA will still be adding tractor classes to garner new members to fund their existence while losing top pullers and entire classes to PPL. It just amazes me that the organization cannot save itself from this demise. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
This says enough,on ntpa website they show 7 member states, yep 7.i can remember when there was 39..nuff said |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Isn't it functionally 5? I see where they have an Iowa and Ohio group, but do those groups actually function as true member states with state-sanctioned events? . Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2021 08:04AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
Thier probably just p.o boxes...lol |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Greg k
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There were 8 to start with in 1969 so whether now 5 or 7 you can see the growth geographically in 51 years is nil. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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?
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Ohio79er , very well said and very true--- i agree completely !!!! |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Ty Braker
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What will be the next NTPA show that will switch to PPL? |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Greg k
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Im thinking Rockwell. But Chapel Hill could be in play since some changes have happened at Lions Club. Who knows maybe Fort Recovery goes back to 2 pulls with same sanctioning body like they did for many years. Only this time it may be with PPL. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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PPL fannatic
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PPL's schedule is full. You can't put 20 pounds of democrats in a 10 pound bag,........................... |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Posts: 1,163 |
I was just going to say that there really isn't much availability to switch over. Plus they will limit the number of hooks each class has. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
I know that most people discount anything that isn't GN or PPLs Champions Tour but for those of us running in RN competition in In,Oh and Mi NTPA has a pretty good game going on for quite a few classes. Several classes have more hooks than they want so the points are split so people don't need to drive as much achieve a points title. On the flip side OSTPA with PPL runs all over Ohio. We've done both and they both do a good job. There is a lot of good pulling going on on both sides at the very top level in both organizations. We've done the GN and it is a great place to pull but everyone has to seek their own level and be happy with where they are. There is enough room in pulling for all to succeed at some level as far as the organizations are concerned.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: SnoFarmer
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Todd, if the events go off as scheduled, I hope to see your team run at both BG and The Fort. For those who haven't seen the updated class list on NTPA's website, they're running RN mods both nights in addition to unlimiteds at The Fort. Haven't seen the OSTPA schedule, but haven't they usually run a hook with mods in eastern OH that night? Hopefully the RN mods will have a good turnout. Bonus if Schmiessings and Bergmans run there to have allison representation. |
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Re: SnoFarmer
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Greg k
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Ostpa mods in Mt Vernon Oh on Sat night of Fort Pull |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Puller
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I understand why some of the pullers like PPL and yes they do some things better than NTPA but if you look at some of the biggest pulls in the world (BG and tomah) they are still NTPA pulls. I'm not going to go as far as to say that NTPA is gone but they just have made some decisions that have not helped them out. I still have a special place in my heart for NTPA simply because they are the founding organization and I think everyone can agree that without NTPA and the pullers that were apart of NTPA tractor pulling would not be what it is today. In my perfect world NTPA would still be the only organization and we would have unified rules nationwide(that's what NTPA was started for) but I understand that it can't be that way. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
Agree totally.and when bg leaves its over |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Greg k
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Those are my sentiments exactly |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Ford guy
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I feel that Chapel Hill will go PPL before long simply because Mid-South has went PPL, JMO !!! |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Puller, you expressed my thoughts exactly. When I criticize them, it's not because I don't care but because I do.
Even with the decline in number of farm families and other challenges, there is still potential there for their group to be much more than what it's turned into. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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Wondering
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So what exactly does NTPA need to change? What are all the dislikes? What needs to be done to make it better? What exactly is the "organization today"? What does PPL offer that NTPA doesn't and how can they improve? Instead of the negativity, let's have a talk about what we can all possibly do to get it going in the right direction. |
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Re: PPL and NTPA
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BIKER MC
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Patch Over !!! |
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Re: Series sponsorship
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Great questions with many facets, from organizational down to the individual puller level. I'm neither a puller, builder, or promoter, but have gone to pulls since before I could pedal a tricycle. Here are thoughts regarding just one aspect of NTPA's ongoing issues: Series sponsorship. If you look at the Wrangler and Copenhagen/Skoal deals in the 1980s/90s compared to the past 20 years, it seems the payouts have gone backwards. I remember reading either a Puller or program in 1990 where the unlimited mod champ got $20,000. When is the last time the NTPA Unlimited Mod champion got even 1/2 that? The Clinton Administration screwed motorsports with their tobacco deal in the 1990s. That said, Winston was a major sponsor for NASCAR and NHRA, and other tobacco companies sponsored other series. Those other series managed to find non-tobacco title sponsors. NTPA never did. What about purse? Sticking with unlimiteds, I would be curious to know, for example, in 1990, 2000, 2010, and 2020 what is the winning purse for a two day unlimited hook (Super National level). Have purses kept pace with inflation? If you take out pre-commit money, how to NTPA purses compare with PPL and Outlaws purses? Pre-commit money is another issue. If NTPA insists on keeping their pre-commit deal, one thing they could have done (and still could do) is seek out a Pre-commit sponsor who would fund the precommmit payouts (ie, those would not be paid by the promotor). Precommit funds would be paid by a sponsor with a sticker on each and every precommitted vehicle. That's just one idea.... and, the purses should increase.... but that also adds expenses that have to be paid by somebody (promotor, and ultimately fans unless event sponsors enter the picture). To put it all together, imagine if ABC Company was the series sponsor (The NTPA ABC Pulling Series), and XYZ Company sponsored the Pre-Commit program. You could have the XYZ PreCommit program as part of the ABC Pulling Series. Oh, and while that ABC Pulling Series could be Grand National, in a perfect world it would be an all-encompassing deal that would also fund the Regional and Member State series in the same way the Copenhagen/Skoal deal also filtered down to the Regional and State level (at least that's how I remember it. That was 30 years ago, lol). (Side tangent here.... not NTPA-specific but true of pulling in general) - If a facility has room for 8,000 spectators, and you increase the expenses, those same 8000 seats have to fund the increase. If you increase tickets from $20 to $25 or $30 a session, do you still sell those 8000 seats, or does the price increase cause some folks to say no mas, too rich for my blood with my wife and 4 kids? As mentioned, there are many different facets of this NTPA question. We could talk about classes, member states, costs, and other things. The series sponsorship issue is just one of a number of things that could be discussed regarding why NTPA has waned from what it was 30 years ago. I hope at some point in the near future, NTPA will be able to procure a well-funded series sponsor. They've got several smaller contingency deals, but nothing like they had with Wrangler and Copenhagen/Skoal in the glory days. Finally, on the positive side, NTPA has 3 new GN pulls, 2 of them west of the Mississippi. Maybe, just maybe, they will start to regain what was lost. Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2021 03:42PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Series sponsorship
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They had their chance
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The NTPA had their chance at bringing in $300,000 total from two individuals, but the WPI, pretty much gave them the finger. What needs to happen before anything is a complete overhaul of the WPI board and leadership. Then these other things can start to be discussed. |
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Re: Series sponsorship
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?
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I think NTPA screwed themselves when they let Larry Roberts ( AKA: R&L CARRIERS ) slip through their hands, R&L could of matched anything Copenhagen/Scoal was giving them easily !!! They screwed the pooch on that one. |
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Michael and so many others
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Ohio79er
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Look, if you guys want to know why NTPA is going down hill it has nothing to do with money, sponsorship, events, any of those things. It comes down to how they treat us as pullers. When you show up at a PPL pull, Christy and John go out of their way to thank you for coming, they make you feel welcome. NTPA doesn’t do that, they have a holier than thou approach that was embedded in them by DPS. We are the NTPA, we are the best, Dave also whole heartedly believed that member states were not necessary for NTPA to be successful. He also believed that if you paid pullers more they would just spend it.
I’ve said it before and it’s not a knock on the fans, it’s just the way it is. Very very few of you have sat in meetings over the last 20 years and heard the things pullers have heard in those meetings. So I say “ you just don’t know, that you don’t know” Pullers don’t want the sport to die. Period! A few years ago, back when Delynn Kale, Danny Gettinger, Robby Crutchfield, Todd Fogelman were kicking all the SS butt on the region it was brought up you need to knock the cubes back on these RN supers or you’re going to kill the class. You have old guys like George Everett who people on the board consider the guru of SS pulling saying no. So if George says no to a SS rule change everyone goes along with it. NTPA was warned by the pullers RN SS pulling will be dead if you don’t level up the playing field or do something to dial the alkies back. So who was right and who was wrong? The guys running diesel, a few switched to light pro and a few got parked. All you keyboard warriors can argue away with me, but I’ve said for years you need entry level, mid, and national levels. If a guy has to spend $300,000.00 to go win a RN championship and another $10,000 a year to maintain it at the RN Level, he’s probably not going to stay in the game very long. Sponsorship, one error to correct their. NTPA didn’t let R&L get away. They simply couldn’t be bought. The owner at the time wrote a letter to WPI stating if they outlawed V8’s he would pony up some serious money. WPI said no! It comes down to NTPA does not respect the competitor. I’ve heard Richwine announce and forget the mic was on and bad mouth teams who had just spent 5 hours traveling to that pull in Logansport, IN only to be run down by the head tech official verbally. They lack class and they lack professionalism. They give guys like Jim Miller to much influence and then in driver meetings he talks crazy to pullers. The purse money between the two isn’t that much different. End of year money is a little better, but when you have over $500,000 invested in tractor, hauler, tools etc. do you really think that extra $750 that PPL pays out more matters (just a random number) or do you think it’s the way a guy gets treated? If I take vacation time, pay for my family, fuel all the things it takes to get to a pull do you think I’m going to go where people are trying and make sure I feel welcome or where I’m going to be disrespected and ignored? You won’t find harder working, more kind individuals than John and Christy. Christy works her butt off for pullers. So this whole battle, NTPA vs PPL, let me tell you all it comes down to respect. I’m going to go pull with the organization I feel respected by. It’s a puller first vs promoter first mentality. Promoters and fans are important, don’t get me wrong, but take care of your entertainers and they will keep coming back. In a puller’s budget the better money isn’t about the money, it’s about the respect. NTPA doesn’t respect the guy putting on the show and PPL does. |
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