Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 02:27AM
In reading posts about expenses and breakage, it got me thinking about how sometimes a gain in one area (Mitas tires for example) can negate other areas (having to change a setup because of making weight, or "weak points" that weren't an issue with a prior setup now start breaking and lead to more $ spent and unable to run, for example).

One of my favorite classes are Unlimiteds, and one tractor I enjoy seeing is Wayne Purser's Uncle Sam. Rest assured, the thought experiment below is not intended as a negative towards that team or tractor. If memory is correct, Uncle Sam had a big change between 2019 and 2021. In a class where everyone tries to find as much hp as possible, this tractor actually went backwards. **I believe the following is accurate regarding tires and blowers, but if not, anyone in the know please correct.**

In 2019, Uncle Sam showed up at Bowling Green with 5 x 18-71s on and won the 2nd hook.

In 2021, Uncle Sam ran with 5 x 8-71s (the 5th motor may have had an 18-71; can't remember for sure).
Is it correct that the 2021 version ran Mitas tires which necessitated running smaller blowers? If this correct, I wonder:

Thought experiment: If 2019 Uncle Sam ran heads up against 2021 Uncle Sam, would the different tires be enough to offset the reduced horsepower from the 2019 version? Would the new tires with 8-71s cancel out the 18-71s with prior tires (meaning would 2019 Uncle Sam be a net neutral against the 2021 Uncle Sam)? Or, would the 2019 version with 18-71s likely finish ahead of the 2021 version running the smaller blowers?

For modified pullers- Are the Mitas tires becoming a necessity if you want to win these days?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2022 02:32AM by The Original Michael.
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 03:20AM
Interesting question because Mitas tires are about to take off in more classes. There are several pro stocks using them now too. We'll see if they benefit the tractor classes as much as people seem to think they've benefitted the modified classes.

Greg Boyd told me that they tested the tires and thought they were worth 5-10 feet. Not sure what the difference in blowers would be worth.
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 06:18AM
Tire technology really has taken a huge step forward the last 6-7 years. Where the tires used to be somewhat of a limiting factor. New advancements and offering tires for different classes has changed a lot of setups and allowed for more horsepower to be effectively utilized. The key is to be able to find what that combination is before the competition does.

I would be interested to see the details of 5-10 foot gain test.

Aaron Docter
Pro Puller Tires
402-840-0244
Facebook
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 06:44AM
It seems that the biggest limiting factor today are the tracks. While some can truly handle the power and guys can get the tires hooked up good there are a lot that simply won't allow pullers to use the full power they have at their disposal
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 08:10AM
I agree with Brandon, track, dirt prep, type and moisture are huge factors,time of day, pulling order all matter much more when big power is used.
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 08:34AM
IMO if the puller has competitive vehicle the pull is won before they drive on track. What I mean is the one that reads the track best and sets up their vehicle best should win. Just my $0.02 worth.
Reply Quote

Re: Uncle Sam v. Uncle Sam (thought experiment)? July 11, 2022 02:42PM
With the advancement of tires the pullers pay the price. Not only do they have to pay the price of the tires but the price of modification of their tractors. I'm mostly talking about the Mod tractors when I refer to having to make these changes. I remember when the Puller 2000s came to the pulling world and people had to redo their tractors in order to hold down the front. Moving engines forward, changing driveline and in some cases basically starting over.

In recent years the mod classes have found the weak point, that being the rear-end. At the PPL and NTPA Unlimited levels rear-end failure is a very common issue oftentimes causing more damage to the rest of the tractor from broken frames to over reving engines. So then the competitors not only have the expense and time to repair the rear-end but also the collateral damage that might have happened.

I recently saw the interview with Joe Eder and one of his main focuses for this year was to make it easier and faster to change out the rear-end on his tractor. His goal was achieved by making changes that allow him to do that job in I think he said 18 minutes,it takes me hours to do that job.

The real question for me is should we expect a puller the have to make these I kinds of efforts just remain competitive!? Or should we make reasonable changes so that a tractor can live through the better part of a season without having to rebuild.

Unfortunately the tire situation is a big contributing factor, they just hook so hard and combined with the tremendous power its overwhelming the parts. Not to point blame at the tire builders because they are just doing their job.

There are things that can be done that I feel should be done to make tractors live because some day we are going to run out of people willing to spend the enormous amounts of time and money that it takes to compete at this level.

The thing that makes changes at this level difficult is that you have a core of competitors that have made the investment and commitment to these incredible classes and justifiably they are resistant to big changes.

I've been on both sides of breakage, I've had seasons with virtually no breakage as well as seasons with LOTS of breakage...I can attest to the fact that pulling is much more fun (and affordable) without. Maybe we should make an effort in the direction of less breakage!

S'no Farmer
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 01:41AM
Quote
S'no Farmer
The real question for me is should we expect a puller the have to make these I kinds of efforts just remain competitive!? Or should we make reasonable changes so that a tractor can live through the better part of a season without having to rebuild.

There are things that can be done that I feel should be done to make tractors live because some day we are going to run out of people willing to spend the enormous amounts of time and money that it takes to compete at this level.

The thing that makes changes at this level difficult is that you have a core of competitors that have made the investment and commitment to these incredible classes and justifiably they are resistant to big changes.
S'no Farmer

Todd, thanks for the thoughtful reply from someone with skin in the game. I selectively quoted a couple sentences from your reply.

With the understanding that pullers will have different opinions on the subject, what ideas do you have that would make the tractors live, and would those be for all modifieds or the GN/Champions Tour-level classes?

One thing that makes sense in my little mind (though NTPA has never done this to the best of my knowledge) is to have a 3 or 5 year plan- ie- if there are needed major changes to a class that will affect pullers who've already spent money, then get the important stakeholders and agree on a future date a given major change will go into effect (say 2025).

That would allow a 3 year window for the major change to go into effect and for pullers to plan and prepare. How many changes do pullers make now over the course of 3 years? Some will decide to quit. Others, with 3 years to plan, may build for the class. Some will understand why the change is being made and adapt.

Businesses plan for future years all the time (to the best of their ability). How long did NASCAR work on their new car design before it went live this year? In an ideal world, maybe NTPA and PPL (and even Outlaws) could work on identical rules for a future implementation date. That would be a win-win for the entire pulling world.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2022 01:45AM by The Original Michael.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 01:57AM
That has always been the problem with pulling overall and the NTPA in particular. There is no forward vision. It's always one day at a time. Look at the OSS. Lt. Un. Mods, no thought on what this will look like next year or better yet 3 years down the road. A perfect example is screw blowers in the Lt. Un. Mod class but not in the next class up ( Mods), however legal in the Unlimited Mod class. No vision.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 02:29PM
The Original Michael,
Regardless of the kinds of changes there will be opposition from pullers and/or fans. As an example if you were to reduce weight it would likley do away with 5 engine tractors, you as well as a LOT of fans would be unhappy not to mention some pullers. Lowering the hitch could accomplish the goal but likely would cause competitors to speed up tire speed then destroying tires in a fashion similar to the mini class the big difference being the cost of replacing the damaged tires. Not to mention that the show would suffer for lack of ground speed. Another thought is to lengthen the chain similar to what they do with the Semi class. The result would be very much the same as lowering the weight.

Many years ago (before my competitive days) there was a 12,000 lb class as well as a 9,000 lb class I would be interested to know why these classes were eliminated. My assumption would be that these tractors couldn't be stopped in a safe manner. Someone more involved during that time period might need to educate me on that.

There are some efforts to extend the life of the rear-end such as using pumps to pressurize oil into the front pinion bearing. One competitor I know is over filling the rear-end housing with way more oil than usual to try to flood the front pinion bearing with oil, another has modified the pinion housing to accommodate a different style of pinion bearing. All of these efforts seem to help at least to some extent.

S'no Farmer
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 11:39AM
Coming from a team that still wins Euro Cups against guys like Lambada and Boers (who for sure don't cheap out on their engine program) at 9000 lbs on Mitas tires and has no issue with its rear-end, despite not having pressure lubrication on the input shaft, since the last update of it in the early 2000s (which meant putting some quality ring and pinion gears in that were not made in US/China/India):
What does adding lubrication on the pinion shaft help the strength of the ring gear???


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2022 11:41AM by Sascha.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 04:01PM
Sasha,
My understanding is that most failures on the high powered tractors is the front pinion bearing not the ring and pinion. When I was running the GN Mod class I had one rear-end failure and it was the front pinion bearing. Before and after that I've run the RN class with hundreds of passes on two tractors with only one broken tooth on a ring gear. The higher power seems to really be hard on the front pinion bearing over here. I could be wrong but the conversations I had a couple of years ago pointed more at that bearing more than the R&P.

S'no Farmer
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 09:46PM
Ok - that explains the lubrication part and makes sense now.
We run an SQHD Humpco carrier in our rear in the triple Allison, but if I remember correctly, the ring & pinion is from another model and an Italian manufacturer (after we couldn't keep the SQHD gears in one piece in the early 2000s) and took totally different size bearings on the input shaft.
So that might be a reason we're not encountering problems there.
With counter-rotating engines and the way the chassis is built, we also get by without having to spin the input shaft much over 11k rpm and the tractor not having a tendency to have much momentum transferred to the rear end... the tractor is not prone to one wheeling at all.
Just getting a little light on the nose these days.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
Reply Quote

Sno Farmer July 12, 2022 01:59AM
Michael, how dare you suggest something as wild as the 3 organizations working together on rules! HAHA

It's great hearing from Todd as he is actually affected by the rules, the advancement of technology, and the added stress that the new technology puts on old parts.

I would be curious what ideas Todd and other would actually propose in order to maybe limit the technology just enough to put less stress on rear ends while still allowing teams to keep increasing horsepower and overall strength of their tractor.
Reply Quote

Re: Sleds? July 12, 2022 02:20AM
It's been mentioned before but along with tractors, the pulling world should really look at innovations in sled design.

How much breakage do we see occur at the point where the bars go into the track? Where in the course of the run does the rear end typically give out? Just some food for thought.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 08:30AM
A little insight into the "phased in" idea.......it is proposed many times and the main argument is that a few competitors will make the change right away and the ones who can't or won't will then either be behind or ahead (depending on the change) for that phase in period. For instance, let's take the Pro Stock class. Say, a rule change is made to drop the cubic inches to 540 with an implementation date of 2025 or whenever the competitor suffers catastrophic damage. If you suffer the damage and rebuild to the new rule, you will probably be behind until 2025. If you don't suffer the damage, you will most likely stay at the current 680 until the end of the 2024 season because you don't want to be behind. So for three years the competitor who makes the "early" change will be "outgunned" until the whole class is mandated to change (and there will still be resistance--you know: close the door after the horse is out).. So, was there any gain? Basically, that is what is affecting a true SuperStock class (both fuels) now and you see the impact in the results of the events that have those classes. So, does the NTPA take the stance of a "dictator" organization and possibly suffer the consequences of having no members of a class to promote or try to coerce change. In today's promotion climate, there are many (too many) factions that would step up to fill any void of classes to promote. Just look at all of the splinter groups that promote pulls today, from fairly decent groups to the myriad of "brush" groups that put on events at 4 or 5 local fairs and festivals. It is easy to see issues from one perspective and assume that that is the way decisions are made.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 10:16AM
I love the Pro Stock class. Its the only one that I have ever competed in. But to be completely honest, if I have a catastrophic failure, my tractor will probably sit until either the 4.1 or 540 lt pro class goes component. On the other hand, the Pro class is one of the few national classes that have decent numbers at. Most pullers in that class, money does not seem to be the issue. At nearly 200k for a complete motor, I wont and cannot start over. Having rules to build down to me are just as important as rules to build up otherwise you will keep losing pullers. Just my opinion.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 12, 2022 04:14PM
Craig aren’t you building a whole new engine this year again?
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 05:47AM
No sir. Just a couple new parts
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 05:07AM
Quote
bandit496
A little insight into the "phased in" idea.......it is proposed many times and the main argument is that a few competitors will make the change right away and the ones who can't or won't will then either be behind or ahead (depending on the change) for that phase in period. For instance, let's take the Pro Stock class. Say, a rule change is made to drop the cubic inches to 540 with an implementation date of 2025 or whenever the competitor suffers catastrophic damage. If you suffer the damage and rebuild to the new rule, you will probably be behind until 2025. If you don't suffer the damage, you will most likely stay at the current 680 until the end of the 2024 season because you don't want to be behind. So for three years the competitor who makes the "early" change will be "outgunned" until the whole class is mandated to change (and there will still be resistance--you know: close the door after the horse is out).. So, was there any gain? Basically, that is what is affecting a true SuperStock class (both fuels) now and you see the impact in the results of the events that have those classes. So, does the NTPA take the stance of a "dictator" organization and possibly suffer the consequences of having no members of a class to promote or try to coerce change. In today's promotion climate, there are many (too many) factions that would step up to fill any void of classes to promote. Just look at all of the splinter groups that promote pulls today, from fairly decent groups to the myriad of "brush" groups that put on events at 4 or 5 local fairs and festivals. It is easy to see issues from one perspective and assume that that is the way decisions are made.

I understand the argument on both sides. However, if all anyone does is listen to both sides and do nothing, the end result is paralysis and gridlock. (It's possible the class doesn't really need a major change and only one or two squeaky wheels are pushing it, but that's beside the point. That's why major changes need to be thought out with a thought about how this change may play out in 5 years).

If a class needs a major change to ensure it will survive as a class, ultimately someone in a position of leadership needs to exercise that leadership and make a decision. The advantage of having a few years notice is a puller can run current equipment with an eye to the future based on their needs and preference, whether that means adapting to the new rule, switching classes, or selling and getting out of the sport. (this isn't about any specific class; it's a general guideline for any class when a rule change is proposed that would case a paradigm shift within the class. Major modified changes may be that; change the PS limit from 680 to 540 ci would be another example). If Puller A changes immediately and Puller B waits until he has to, each puller has made the decision that fits their program, correct?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2022 05:09AM by The Original Michael.
Reply Quote

Outlaw mods don't look so bad. July 13, 2022 05:44AM
As a fan, i attended my first Outlaw hook, the Mod class was very entertaining. They have limits and those limits allow more variety. Yes they have less hp, but from sitting in the stands they put on a heck of a good show. A few of the Hemi guys with 2 hemis struggled because they were using Mitas tires. Seems like spending a ton of money for the latest and greatest doesn't always equal a quality show. I do know the difference between 12,000 hp and 6,000 hp. But in the last 3 years i have been to Ntpa and PPL hooks, and now Outlaw, i would have to say the Outlaw show with the variety was the most entertaining that i have seen. Just my opinion, bigger isnt always better GrinningBeer
Reply Quote

Re: Outlaw mods don't look so bad. July 13, 2022 08:27AM
I agree with farmall's forever that with properly set sled the crowd can't tell the difference.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 08:45AM
TOM, correct...but if you have half at one limit and half at another limit, how do you think the fans would react? Sometimes, when there are stubborn people, you just have to "do nothing" and let those "sleep in the bed they made". Can only do so much to keep an organization solvent as long as possible. As I pointed out, there are many organizations that would fill the space if any of the what we call the Big 3 (PPL, NTPA, Outlaws) were to fail.
Reply Quote

Re: S'no Farmer July 13, 2022 09:42AM
I have left pulls that had several (4-5) "cookie cutter" classes with all looking, sounding similar and going to the end because it was boring. ECI pull.
Reply Quote

Newer Topic Older Topic

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,633, Posts: 229,697, Members: 3,325.
This forum: Topics: 37,067, Posts: 225,901.

Our newest member JD_8520