Building a llss JD diesel. January 21, 2014 03:42AM
Ok so I've been around pulling for a while and have only pulled diesel trucks. I got out for a few years and want to get back into it. I plan on building a John Deere llss for our 6500lb class. I have never built a tractor and have been trying to read up on it but info is scarce. Where do I start? Whole tractor or part one together? Where do I find performance parts for the engine, trans, ect.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 21, 2014 04:34AM
you want to start from scratch so you know every bit of the tractor prolly want to run a 4010 rearend i pull a ford llss so not sure on the right rear end as for tranny becket machine gms engler ect. for the engine a 13mm p7100 an hx 60 for fuel an air is the best you can get both at harts diesel or CDS we run a stock bottom end in the fords so riverside is your jd guys but a stock cranks an rods should work great after they have been checked balanced ect. riverside beckect machine does alot of good john deere work.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 08:30AM
Quote
rowdy
you want to start from scratch so you know every bit of the tractor prolly want to run a 4010 rearend i pull a ford llss so not sure on the right rear end as for tranny becket machine gms engler ect. for the engine a 13mm p7100 an hx 60 for fuel an air is the best you can get both at harts diesel or CDS we run a stock bottom end in the fords so riverside is your jd guys but a stock cranks an rods should work great after they have been checked balanced ect. riverside beckect machine does alot of good john deere work.

I am building a 4010 very similar to this. Does anybody know if the block needs to be girdled for running 466ci, unlimited rpm, 3x4 charger & 13mm 7100 P pump?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 21, 2014 05:26AM
What is your CID limit?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 21, 2014 12:21PM
470 cubic inches (no intercooler) Single turbo 3” x 4” max. or under 315 cubic inches may run two compressor stages, each at 3” x 4”. Engines may
run an intercooler. Engines above 315 CI may only run one turbo charger. Maximum limit of 410 cubic inches (diesel engines). Single turbo 3”x 4” maximum. Engines may run an intercooler.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 21, 2014 01:47PM
Thank you Jerrod. Those are our rules.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 02:01AM
If I was to start with a complete tractor where should I start. 4010, 4020 or.....
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 02:32AM
Where is this club located? The only difference between 410 + 470 is the use of intercooler? Up to 470cu is 3x4 charger or 3x3? OH and NY are 479Cu 3x3 charger, 410 Cu is 3x4 and intercooler, 310cu twin chargers and intercooler allowed.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 04:42AM
We are in Michigan.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 01:15AM
All can use 3x4 charger.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 02:45AM
At 6500 you should be able to get there with either the 4010 or 4020 rear end. The 4010 is lighter although I don't have a number for the difference. If you want to go with the 'fast' setup of 4020 R&P plus 4010 finals, the 4020 R&P has to be modified to fit in the 4010 housing. 4020 housing also has a little more room for gears.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 04:13AM
Trying to build the same monster. Easy to do if you hate your money. Have talked to a lot of people that have stated to build a John Deere and got so frustrated they became colorblind and now have red touch up paint on the shelf. For us we are very determined and patient, with our in-house capabilities we will figure out how to create a better mouse trap. Surround yourself with good knowledgeable people you can trust, call around and ask questions, if they don't have time move on we all had to start somewhere. Just remember the only dumb question is the question that's not asked. Where are you from?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 04:47AM
I will only build green. I can't put a red tractor next to a collection of 25+ restored 2cyl JDs. If I started with a blown up 4010 gas will a diesel bolt up and what kind of motor should I look for and where are good place to look.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2014 04:47AM by NickFrantz.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 04:49AM
What are you referring to as fast?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 05:15AM
The bolt pattern for the gas & diesel are the same so the gasser is probably a more economical starting point.

The 4010 and 4020 have nearly identical final drive ratios but they get there with different R&P and planetary ratio. By combining a 4020 R&P with 4010 planetaries you get a faster ratio that either stock combo. With the ratios you will be running it probably doesn't matter assuming you are putting in a 3 speed.
Riverside is building some very strong JD466 3x4 engines assuming you are going with that combo.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 05:25AM
I will be building my own motor. To start can the stock trans be used? What gear would you pull in (I ask because in the trucks a stock trans only 2nd hi and 4th low will work and hold up to any abuse) What does it take to run a 3 speed? Trying to do research but no one has any info available like the truck stuff does. For now I'm looking to just get a tractor together to get started. Not planning on being out front right away just get into it and go from there.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 07:51AM
Go with the 4010 lighter is better even at 6500 an the gear ratios you are wanting are between 19-22 depending on track ect but if you have gears between that you will be fine a litte faster won't hurt but the best we have seen diesels run is in the 19-21 range. An Becket machine in Ohio does great Jonh deer work and for the motor anything 4240+ an a 55 series head
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 08:34AM
19-22? Please explain a little more. I'm use to 3.73 4.56 ect.... Truck gearing.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 08:41AM
He means 19:1, 20:1, 21:1 and 22:1 ratio
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 08:59AM
Nick.. its a total ratio including final drive planetaries, diff and transmission.. Also remember the tire size differance from what you are used to working with.. (also think about your tire size in your gearing.)
7th will be too slow.. I don't have my chart in front of me.. (I'm sure someone will post it.) of the ratio of 8th gear.. You are stuck with one pulling gear.. at 6500lbs you might have the HP for it.. but I was thinking it was in the 18 range...
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 09:21AM
That's with the stock trans correct? So if I can swing it now a 3spd from somewhere would be much better.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 09:29AM
Stock 7th is 36.87:1, and stock 8th is 22.59:1.

This is why you see talk of 7 1/4 and 7 1/2 gears. And that is why you end with a three speed anyways, as most people eventually do. Much easier to deal with in the end, hard to swallow the cost. Grenade enough stock type trans components and you will see why the three speed was money well spent out of the gate!
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 09:53AM
What size tires are you going to run 30.5-24.5? And 3 gears is all your really goin to need 1 point on a light tractor does make a big difference. An there is a difference. Between 30.5 an 24.5 tires
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 11:32AM
We have 3 JD pullers down south of the Ohio at 6000 lbs with anywhere from 400 to 450 lbs of moveable weight and all run 30.5s , just takes a little hard work and watch how you build it !
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 01:44AM
How much would it cost to have someone put 71/2 and 73/4 gears in a syncro range?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 01:29AM
I can make you a 7 1/2 and a 7 3/4 gear and do the machining required on your countershaft for $1,300.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 04:59AM
Call me 815-864-3555 Mike
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 09:50AM
I would definitely use a 4010 and even then you are going to have to work at making weight. The picture below is an early 4010 which are lighter that we pull in a 7700 lb class and we only have about 900 lbs of weight on it when pulling. A stock 4010 in road gear is a 22.6 :1 ratio. Which means that the engine turns 22.6 times for each turn of the tires. If you have enough power to run road gear, you will probably break the high range pinion so you will almost have to have an aftermarket three speed transmission that will set you back atleast 4,000 dollars. You will also need to needle your differetial which is another $600.00 You will need a good clutch and flywheel at about another $4000.00. Then you need engine, pistons, sleeves, roller cam, roller lifters, injection pump, injectors, turbo, girdle, external oil pump, adjustable cam gear, roll cage, wheelie bars, weight brackets and more.


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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 22, 2014 11:31AM
I have a jd 466 for sale a little crispy from the combine fire 1200.00 dollars 270 566 2901 ky it should make a cheap start
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 01:42AM
Email me some pics of the motor nfrantz87@gmail.com
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 01:44AM
This riverside everyone talks about must be a secret place since I can't find a single damn thing about them online. Also no one has any info or parts for sale I can find for anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2014 01:45AM by NickFrantz.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 02:13AM
Riverside Engines Inc. (REI)
7381 S State Route 231
Tiffin, OH 44883
Phone: (419) 927-6838

Per the links button above. http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?7,288,86536#msg-86536
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 03:56AM
Phil at Riverside knows his stuff. Great to deal with and very helpful. They don't have a website, but give him a call, it will be worth your time. And it you are buying a motor, make sure it has a crank driven oil pump and straight cut timing gears, it will save you alot of headaches and money down the road. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of these options are standard in the 7.6 motors, and they should have the right size hole to take a P pump and a good flowing head to start with. We started out with a 466 with slant timing gear and cam driven oil pump and neither will take the hp you will be producing without going to an external oil pump and changing timing gears.. Also a stock tranny will not hold up on a 4010/4020 to anything close to the horsepower you should be creating. 500+ hp and the top shaft has an aluminum collar that will explode to pieces and the slant gears just won't take the pressure. Also make sure and have your rearend needled, saves the life of the rearend and helps make the tractor pull straight going down the track. Start out with a three speed transmission and save yourself more time and headaches. Like the previous posts said, a good starting point would be around the 20 to 1 gear ratio, and they make the trannys so that it is relatively easy to change your ratio's. There are several builders out there that build them. Lemke's, Beckett, GMS, and Roberts are a few that come to mind, and they would also be able to help you with needling the rearend. All are listed in the builders directory on this website. I've been there and done that on both the motor and tranny. Thought I would save money at first and try to make it work and it doesn't. It would have saved me alot of money, headaches, late nights in the shop and bloody knuckles if someone would have told me this when we started lol. We run a 4010 rear end with a Roberts three speed and an 8.1 block sleeved down to 466 ci. and 3x4 charger. We pull mainly the 8500 limited pro stock, but can get down in weight and run the light classes if we want. With tube frame and 24.5 pullers the tractor weighs around 5800 with room to take off more weight with some work. And make sure you get the lighter 4010 axle housings, not sure on the exact amount, but there is considerable difference in weight.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2014 04:06AM by limproinmo.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 04:34AM
Thanks that gives me a lot of info to look into. How do the 3 speed trans work? It replaces the entire trans section? As far as the 4010 rearend how can I tell what one is what? As far as engine if I want to run the 410ci-470ci rules what is the best to start with?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 05:03AM
They use the existing Transmission housing and lower pinion shaft and shifting forks, and they replace everything else with straight cut gears and splined shafts. As someone stated above, you can use the 4020 pinion shaft in 4010 housing but it will take some machining. The benefit of doing that is the 4020 shaft has I believe 9 splines whereas the 4010 shaft has 6 splines were it mates up to the rearend ring gear. It would also speed it up I believe but you can also do that with different gear sets. The easiest way to tell the difference on the axle housings is to measure the thickness of the housing where it bolts up to the transmission housing. The lighter one's are a half inch narrower. I want to say the light ones are an 1 1/4" and heavy are 1 3/4" but not positive on that without measuring ours. As far as engine wise that just depends on how far you want to take it. If you are on a tight budget, I would recommend the 7.6 block. It has a good head, p pump hole, crank driven oil pump and straight cut gears. If you have some wiggle room on money I would go with the 8.1 block. It has all the above, plus can take up to a 9.0 liter crank with a little work and with custom pistons will get you the same stroke and bore that the binders run at 466 ci. And according to Phil at Riverside (who is a deere man from what I understand) that is about the only way to make a deere be able to run with the binders at that cubic inch limit. And both blocks will bolt right up to the 4010 bell housing
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 05:36AM
OK so finding a diesel 4010 doesn't even matter at this point because that isn't even the right motor to use. If I got a 3 speed is it like a core exchange or they sent you just the internal parts to make it a 3spd? The more I do myself the happier I am.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 05:43AM
Yes, you definitely do not want to use the original motor in a 4010, so a gas would work. If I was you I would go to a junkyard and just buy a junked one from the bell housing back. Everything from there forward isn't usable unless you want the tin work. When we got our transmission we went to Roberts shop and put it together there with our housing, but that is just something you will have to call the builders and work out.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 06:57AM
Thanks for the help. If you can get me more details on the different rearends that would be great. Dumb question probably but what's BBJD and SBJD? Big block small block but what's what?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 07:15AM
Big block is what came in 5020/6030 and such, the 531, 619 ci motors. Small block are your 404, 466, 7.6, 8.1 motors The big blocks look totally different than the small blocks, and would assume also that they are much heavier. I never have seen a big block apart, and someone else can probably answer this, but i assume the bolt pattern and everything else is different in that they wouldn't bolt up to a 4010 bell housing or anything else that takes a small block motor



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2014 07:16AM by limproinmo.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 07:30AM
I just wanted to know for reference what were bb and what were sb. Thanks.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 09:20AM
Here is a picture of a stock john deere 4010 transmission and a picture of a three speed that we made. The one we made is the one with the wide gears and the splined shafts.


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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 01:44AM
Thanks for the pics. Looks simple compared to most stuff I work on. So with a 3 speed you then have the shifters between your legs? I never have seen how the shifting actually works with that style. For only $4k I have no reason not to start there and not even think about a stock trans. I have that much into the trans of my tow rig lol.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 01:52AM
Stock jd transmissions shift with 2 rods on the right side. When you switch to a 3 speed you only need one rod. So you could use the stock shifter or use 1 shifter between your legs that links to the shifter arm on the side of the transmission.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 04:09AM
Less is always better. LESS WEIGHT. Thanks for all the input. I'm starting to look for a 4010 to start with.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 23, 2014 08:03AM
hear i thought all along JD was the best of the best
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 08:34AM
Question for JRMachine. How much variation can you have between the gears on a three speed?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. January 24, 2014 09:04AM
If I make normal gears, they would be 1 tooth apart or about 6% difference in ratio. I can make profile shifted gears which could make them about 3% apart if you want them really close. If you want them farther apart than 6% I could do that too.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 04, 2014 01:22AM
Still looking for a tractor to start with but still been doing research. What do most guys run for an exhaust manifold? Is there a good stock one? Or build my own? I'll more than likely be building an intake anyway. I've done that but not an Exhaust manifold.
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 04, 2014 01:29PM
Think about it man one turbo that you cant stick two fingers into the smallest part of it I had a stock manifold and a 2500 dollar header with a hx 60 on it profab built if it made 25 horse I never new it.But my wife did
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 04, 2014 01:53PM
I kind of lost what you are trying to say with having one long sentence. So stock is good enough? Off what?
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 04, 2014 02:38PM
Sorry I started with an hx60 and stock manifold. I spent two thousand on a header ran it, and couldn't tell any difference
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 06, 2014 06:47AM
I have a couple of 55 series heads, complete and intake and exhaust manifolds, cam, pushrods, deck plate, lifters. Shoot me an email if you are interested preachers99@msn.com
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Re: Building a llss JD diesel. February 06, 2014 02:19PM
Nick all 7.6 manifolds will fit, some just locate the turbo in different positions, and some will require you to use a different thermostat housing for clearances. I think the one to look for is on a 7810 .... I think,(dont have my notes with me). You can use jd 466 search in the forum here to see what some have recommended.
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