Tube frame material February 01, 2014 02:46AM
Currently in the process of building, and would like to make my own tube frame. I would like some direction from those that have done it. What diameter and wall thickness is appropriate? Seamless Y/N? Grade/spec of material? I have an idea what I would like to use, just like some assurance form others. Tractor will be made to run as much as 10K pound class.

Thanks for any constructive assistance.........
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 01, 2014 12:54PM
i used 120 wall DOM tubing on mine 2 inch top and bottom rail 1.75 inch for latter bars but wish i had bought smaller like 1.5 or 1.25 wouldve been easier to knouch thats just my 2 cents
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 01, 2014 01:08PM
Chris is right, I use 2'' on the mains and 1.5 on the ladders.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 01, 2014 02:31PM
I also agree. Use 2" DOM for the rails and 1 1/2 for the ladders. I used 1 3/4" for the ladders on this one but it would have been easier with the 1 1/2 and also a little lighter.


Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 01, 2014 04:01PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I was thinking the 2" & 1.75" combo, but will go with 1.5" ladders instead. Much appreciated.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 01, 2014 04:55PM
Don't let anyone talk you into "chrome-moly" either. Just use plain ole mild steel DOM.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:56AM
what wrong with using crome molly other than cost ?
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 02:07AM
Is there a certain spec to be followed for cage and tube frame. If using chromoly what size and wall thickness is required for different weight tractors.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 04:07AM
Nothing wrong with chrome moly, other than cost like you said. Wasn't my material of choice. Trying to do the best I can within the budget!
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 10:02AM
Unless things have changed Nascar does not allow it's use in chassis. CM takes a very experienced and talented welder, to weld it properly. NHRA restricts use to chassis from shops that have been certified. A CM chassis has a limited life span. It's professional grade material.

CM tubing is 4130 and should not be considered the same as 4340 which is used to make heavy duty parts. Anyone that tells you Cm is better is just taking your money.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 11:16AM
www.pro-tools.com They have a lot of good hole saw notchers at good prices.

Chromoly is fine to use you can get the same strength at a lighter weight . The only thing is all welds should be tig welded and make sure tubing is cleaned very well at the joints.


[www.lincolnelectric.com] Winking
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:15PM
Don't believe it. Joint gap needs to be .000-.010. Paople that claim to be qualified to weld it need to back it up with a current certification. Anyone that has to ask, sure ain't qualified.

Even My Alves link should verify that.

Quote
As per Lincoln
Q. Why is 4130 filler metal not recommended?
A. 4130 filler is typically used for applications where the weld will be heat treated. Due to its higher hardness and reduced elongation, it is not recommended for sporting applications such as experimental airplanes, race car frames, roll cages, etc.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:29PM
That's on filler metal. An ER 80S works good. If you are not comfortable tig welding for sure don't do it. It is important to use normalized 4130 comes in both normalized and heat-treated versions.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:46PM
That's the point exactly. The weld is the weak link. If you have 100 weak links, why waste your money on high priced steel?. Having a strong tube and weak welds is hardly equal. The whole notion that thinner CM is as strong as mild steal in a chassis or rollcage is crap. It's only equal if done to a specific standard. Once you weld on it the comparison becomes null and void. The strength then becomes dependent on the welded areas. If you don't want to take my word for it call NHRA and Nascar and let them tell you. Tractor pullers will fall for every cool sounding term imaginable. They are the easiest people to rip off in all the motorsports.

Telling someone that CM is fine and telling they to buy a hole saw to notch it is typical, of the blind leading the blind.

Before every chassis builder comes back and attempts to flame me, read, and re-read, and then read it again, the link that Mr Alves posted to Lincoln Electric. It will say the same thing, if you have any comprehension skills at all.

If you think you need a CM chassis, find a "certified" chassis builder and have them build it. Even then you'll be throwing money away.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 03, 2014 09:29AM
How long is this frame from where bolt it up to the bell housing to the front of the chassis? thanks
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:06AM
Wouldnt channel iron be alot faster, or is it too heavy?
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:50AM
Chrome Moly was never going to be part of the plan, mild steel was always the choice.

Channel iron is alot faster, but I prefer the tube frame for a variety of reasons...........
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 03:03AM
Do you have a good tubing notcher? Helps a lot.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 04:08AM
Yes, planning on getting one of those as well. Might just make it though. I know it is a pain in the a$$ without it!
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 05:10AM
You can use a hole saw the same size as the tubing you working with,not as fast as a notcher but works ok.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 05:13AM
That's kinda what I'm gonna do, and build a fixture for the correct angles. Budget, budget, budget!
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 05:58AM
Just remember, the words budget and motorsports don't usually belong in the same sentence.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 10:11AM
I was thinking of purchasing a tubing notcher. Can anyone suggest a brand. I would rather spend the money and get a good one than get a cheap one that doesn't work.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 10:50AM
Take a look at the JD2 notcher called " the beast". I have one and it works great. They also have some good videos on you tube about it.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:50PM
What would be wrong with using square tube? To get the same strength of round tube would you end up with a heavier frame?
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 12:54PM
the surface area of a square tube 2x2 is much larger than a surface area of a round tube 2 inches in diameter... it would be considerably heavier.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:17PM
Square tube will and is easier to work with, but as Robert Alves informed me a while back that if you bend square tube it will fracture which I did not think of. You can use it, just don't bend it.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:27PM
Square tubes are weaker because of the corners. A round tube will bend not fracture. I think I would have said a square tube is less likely to have any flex as well. Years ago I picked up a book anatomy of a top fuel dragster. It goes into details on frame construction. Materials welding . Also analyzes a chassis failure one of the teams had which really came to not using normalized 4130. If you see it pick it up good reading.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:35PM
Thanks Robert,I misunderstood you.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:40PM
Np all this metal information is more geared towards a full tube frame chassis construction . If you are using a cast ag tractor and making side rails and a front end anything will work as really what's going to flex anyways. Probably save weight with round . Good luck Winking
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:43PM
Ow and to the first poster definitely use Dom on regular steel ERW is definitely weaker at the seam .
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 01:55PM
I know I should not say this but DOM ain't seamless either.Smoking
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 02:24PM
Dom is drawn over mandrel . Which is a ERW tube that is secondary cold drawn that results in a stronger tube because it relieves the stress riser in ERW. Not seamless no but the seam is cold worked and become stronger.

TUBE can you build a roll age from ERW . Just curious?
Grinning
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 02, 2014 03:06PM
I probably can, buy I may not. Years ago pullers had a fit when they were not allowed to use ERW. That came from the circle track mentality. Was there something erroneous about DOM not being seamless?Confused It's a fact.Yawning
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 12:39PM
Tube, why are you getting so worked up on this? I used a hole saw on my frame because I have no need for a notcher. It isn't like I plan to build another frame so I used what I had and worked fine.Sounds like you are calling everybody that improvises incompentent.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 01:30PM
Oh I don't know about that ! Me thinks but nothin happens. Eye Rolling
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 12:53PM
And by the way Tube--Robert Alves has forgot more about pulling than you will ever know in your lifetime.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 02:02PM
Quote
kevind
And by the way Tube--Robert Alves has forgot more about pulling than you will ever know in your lifetime.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are correct about Mr Alves pulling knowledge.. Those people with that superior pulling knowledge are very plentiful.

What we, that's Mr Alves and I, were debating is the harsh reality about 4130 tubing. I apologize if that blew over your head but it was not meant to be a discussion about you. Also FWIW all DOM is not equal. No tubing is for that matter.

There are many that will try to impress you and others by making claims that they use some superior material or process and for the most part it's bull. I was really looking out for your best interests until it got into a tit for tat. I stand by what I said, Don't let anyone talk you into 4130 tubing. If you need to be talked into it, you don't need it. The "YOU" meaning anyone that's reading this.

I read when you said CM was not on your radar, but the debate had already left your inquiry and "you" are now thinking I was speaking directly to you. The format here makes for some confusion. It's hard to tell who is talking to who.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 02:47PM
yes, much like those terrible CM chassis' from those rookie builders at engler / full pull / ace / ect... they all know that CM is junky and they dont work well. please stop spreading your anti-CM rant.

both materials have their pros and cons. if done properly CM will exceed DOM in every measurable aspect [theres a reason why SFI allows thiner .095 wall CM vs .120 wall DOM in a roll cage]. if done wrong CM can be more brittle in the HAZ but it can be TIG welded and strong with out annealling. structurally non-heat treated CM is roughly equal to DOM. sure all CM isnt the same but neither is all DOM.

if you dont like a CM chassis then dont build one but dont try to use scare tactics. yes CM will cost a little more but in some applications it is actually more desirable. if someone wants DOM thats great if they want CM thats great too so dont look down your nose at them.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 03:30PM
Quote
scarecrow
yes, much like those terrible CM chassis' from those rookie builders at engler / full pull / ace / ect... they all know that CM is junky and they dont work well. please stop spreading your anti-CM rant.

both materials have their pros and cons. if done properly CM will exceed DOM in every measurable aspect [theres a reason why SFI allows thiner .095 wall CM vs .120 wall DOM in a roll cage]. if done wrong CM can be more brittle in the HAZ but it can be TIG welded and strong with out annealling. structurally non-heat treated CM is roughly equal to DOM. sure all CM isnt the same but neither is all DOM.

if you dont like a CM chassis then dont build one but dont try to use scare tactics. yes CM will cost a little more but in some applications it is actually more desirable. if someone wants DOM thats great if they want CM thats great too so dont look down your nose at them.

You just confirmed what I've said. You even said "IF". And as for the reason, it's obvious you don't know why. You should have read what I said, you'd saved your self having to agree with me

This is been argued since before some of you were born, and it's not going to change the facts. I'm done trying to educate those that don't get it. Let alone try to talk sense to children.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 03:44PM
Hey was that a back-handed compliment on me Mr Tube. LoL You must be a DOM salesman. You have good info just word it a bit nicer.

You have to keep it simple for us simple minded chromoly welders
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 04, 2014 07:06PM
Quote
Robert Alves
Hey was that a back-handed compliment on me Mr Tube. LoL You must be a DOM salesman. You have good info just word it a bit nicer.

You have to keep it simple for us simple minded chromoly welders

My Bad. I do admire those that excel, especially those that perform master level craftsmanship.
Salesman? Nope don't have the stomach for it. I'm rather a salesman's worst nightmare.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 05, 2014 01:01AM
Guys! Please call off your dogs! Holy! Just started a thread asking a couple of simple questions, and now we have a metallurgy engineering debate between superpowers. Take it easy. I wasn't bashing CM, just said it was not on the radar for my project.

Thanks everyone for the input, it is all appreciated. I am sure there are others who got something constructive out of this discussion.
Reply Quote

Re: Tube frame material February 05, 2014 02:08AM
save your self some head aches. call dennis at haslag steel and he will help in any way. 1st call to him very help full ended up buying what parts i wanted not what they wanted me to have. not a pushy sales person. called other places any got the run around because they did not know if i was giving them business. look at the website. JMO
Reply Quote

Newer Topic Older Topic

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,748, Posts: 229,892, Members: 3,334.
This forum: Topics: 37,087, Posts: 225,995.

Our newest member DANNY.WAINSCOTT@YAHOO.COM