Agco/Challenger V12. June 04, 2014 09:04PM
With the release of the newest line of big horsepower challenger tractors agco has brought to market a 16.8l v12 engine. Does anyone think that somewhere down the line that someone will decube one of these to use in the open super class.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 04, 2014 11:46PM
I would say no, we are lucky to see the v8s , with an already slight advantage I'm somewhat surprised the v8s are still legal so I can't imagine any organization letting a v12 slide .
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 05, 2014 02:58AM
It's on the Drawing board for USS and PRO STOCK main focus right now is Pro to compete with BBD.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 05, 2014 04:06AM
Are v12's legal in ntpa superstock/prostock classes? PPL has a limit of 8 cylinders.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 05, 2014 04:13AM
As far as I know 8 cylinders is the max in any tractor class.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 07, 2014 09:48PM
It's always allowed to build a modified tractor with this engine. If this is actually 2 8.4L engines combined into one, you can use the technique of the Herlevi pullingteam from Finland...
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 11, 2014 03:17PM
Just my 2 pennies. Cat now owns Agco as far as I know. I work for a Cat dealer and we will soon start carrying Massey challenger and Possibly Agco.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 12, 2014 01:04AM
cat owns agco? i think you better get your facts straight.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 05, 2014 01:54PM
That engine has incredible torque in the stock form. There's no stopping the Challenger (Agco brand) mt875e/975e even when pulling a 26 ft Wil-Rich 513 ripper. It comes with 4 turbos stock (twin 2-stage turbos). The engine could only fit in the super semi class with the exception of the rule that the truck can only use a engine that was in 500 production trucks, which it wasn't.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 05, 2014 02:08PM
Was agco having trouble working with cat on the engine for the new tractor? They were no where close to the maximum reliable output of the C18.


Curious that you brought up the semis, I recently saw a picture of a road truck with a factory installed deutz air cooled V12, could this new agco engine be based on the same basic layout of the old deutz engines.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 06, 2014 07:16AM
That v12 idea sounds like the most impracticle over priced idea ever! stick to the cat or cummins provin performers.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 06, 2014 07:47AM
i bet its heavy
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 06, 2014 10:44PM
If the V12 is too heavy and expensive and there is an 8 cylinder limit, how about using the 7 cylinder version??
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 06, 2014 11:35PM
I think you might see one this year in the dss class
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 07, 2014 12:04PM
If you look at the big picture if makes complete sense for Agco to switch.

Cat engines were leftover from the Cat years, as is the cat trans. Agco owns Sisu Diesel which came with the Valtra purchase in the 90s and is now called Agco Power. I think Cat had some contracts negotiated when they got out of the Ag market by dissolving their Claas relationship and selling challenger to Agco. Claas uses to used Cat engines in their Xerion and Lexion which was always odd to me. This year the Xerion is Cat free with MB engines in place of them. The big Lexion had a V8 MB the others had Cat. Not sure if that has/will change.

Cat also didn't fit in with Agcos philosophy. The emissions strategies are different and Agco wants fuel economy. The name Cat carries a certain amount of buyer confidence with it, but their efficiency lacks and reliability on any of the newer engines is not that good.

Agco is reducing and streamlining a lot of their line. It's been a mess for awhile. Using their own engines allows them more control over the final product and allows them to offer better service somewhat. Cays service is tough to beat but it's more the issue of need g Cat trained techs at Agco dealers or having to deal with two seperate dealers. One for tractor and one for engine. Same issues happen at John Deere dealers with the Cummins engines.

Agco has bought a lot of brands with good components. They seem to be picking the best from every bunch and combining it to make good products. What they still lack is the quality of the systems around the good components. They do get better every year though and are still fairly new with growing pains.


The Sisu Diesel has a phenomenal record when compared to many other brands. Extremely simple and reliable while having good power and great efficiency.

The v12 is not based on any duetz or other engines. It is simply two of Agco Sisu CTA8.4 inline 6. Everything is modular,cylinders are identical. The manifolds, crank, block etc are different but it's much like some of Cats engines and a lot of the older 2 stroke Detroit with modular cylinders and heads.


People have a hard on for inline 6 engines. They are great but when you need a lot of power and torque in a small package the vees really pull through. Look at Claas, Krone, Fendt and NH forage harvesters. All of them use vee motors in at least some of their product line. With the proper turbo setup these will walk all over the inlines. Offered in Deeres and other choppers. Might not follow the logical thinking but they perform which is what matters. A V12 with bi-compounded turbos is going to have a huge flat torque curve. Not saying the Cat couldn't do it, but I be the V12 will do it on less fuel.

I'm not much of an Agco fan boy, they have enough issues but the Sisu motors at this point have not been one of their issues especially the 8.4. If they move more production to China and keep changing things they will ruin the Sisu brand,but for now at least it has some hope.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 10, 2014 03:30PM
The Sisu v12 is probably lighter than the Cat C18 and will use way less fuel while having more torque. The C18 used 33+ (maybe 36+) gallons of diesel per hour under load, in the same conditions the V12 would probably burn 26-28 gallons per hour. Its one of the best things Challenger has done yet, Sisu engines are second to none. Also the Cat C18 couldn't meet strict agriculture emission standards. Where do you get the idea that Agco has problems? I work with them daily, excellent machines all around! And as far as I know 12 cylinders are allowed in the super semi class.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 10, 2014 03:57PM
Yes, but only as a production commercial truck engine correct?
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 11, 2014 12:26AM
Quote
Team one
Yes, but only as a production commercial truck engine correct?

Yes, its got to be an engine that was put in 500 production trucks.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 11, 2014 04:29AM
Aren't construction regulations the same as the Ag regarding emmissions? Cat has all their engines capable of meeting those for construction in their own equipment.

Too me it seems as though they will loose some of their dealer support without having cat serviceable parts, I can't see cat dealers wanting to sell something that they can't work on outside the area of the driveline.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 13, 2014 01:11AM
If a Cat dealer is selling ag equipment, that means they are an AGCO dealer and get parts, service, and support from AGCO. There really is no connection between Cat (as a company/manufacturer) and the ag equipment any more.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 13, 2014 03:20AM
maybe so but an agco dealer can't sell cat equipment only cat dealers can sell cat according to agco.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 13, 2014 04:50AM
LDI in Kansas sells Challenger and is not a CAT dealer.
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Re: Agco/Challenger V12. June 13, 2014 12:08PM
well that maybe but only if the local cat dealer allows it according to the agco rep in my area
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