traction control again February 14, 2015 04:15PM
Where does the sport of truck and tractor pulling stand? Lets here your response and ideas about the use
of traction control. As we all know it is being used if it has a motor and wheels regardless of what motor sport it is.
Should we legalize it so everyone can play at the same level? Should you have to protest someone or should the organizations start looking harder in trying to fix the problem? If found what should be the penality? This post was not started to point fingers but how to fix a problem. Curious to hear your PROFESSIONAL opion.
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Re: traction control again February 14, 2015 05:00PM
Why can't everyone play on the same level without it? NO, it should not be legal and yes I am holding back the progression of the sport because it takes someone to DRIVE their pulling vehicle to a win and not BUY their vehicle to a win!
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Re: traction control again February 15, 2015 12:07AM
When looking for it, what do you look for? With the use of Data Loggers and the high end ignition, how will anyone be able to tell the difference? You have tech in all of the national organizations that won't spend $100 dollars on equipment that could be used to check cubic inches, how is anyone going to be able to convince them to hire NASA to come in and test all the electronics on the tractor to make sure that it is "just" monitoring the engine or "just" providing ignition? I have heard rumors of a device that can be run/activated by a phone app. Not sure how valid that is, just a rumor. But it may not be too far fetched, there are data loggers out the with Blue tooth like download capabilities so????

Don't get me wrong, I believe that it should be left out of pulling. But the reality is how do you police it with tech the current tech?
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Re: traction control again February 16, 2015 09:19AM
This is a rule that is strctly enforced by the honor system and we all know how well that works with certified weight. This topic needs to be delt with preferably sooner than later. We know it is out there we all believe some are running it. I don't like the idea of it at all, but I also don't believe it will make a driver out of an idiot. But it has the possibility of makeing a good puller better than they were. Either we need to find a way to put a stop to it ( which better funded racing sanctions haven't been able to do) or quit sticking our heads in the sand and let the honest people have it too. I wish this stuff didn't exist just as much as anyone but doing nothing about it is helping either.
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Re: traction control again February 16, 2015 12:09PM
I think we should have it. Yep ive used it with my fuel management system. Less parts breakage. A lot less wear on various parts too. . Cmon ppl its 2015. An the ones saying TC will ruin pulling an make it cookie cutter your wrong. I could make the same argument on wheelie bars, air bags, etc. Its not the future, its now. Flame away
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Re: traction control again February 16, 2015 11:32AM
is diff lock part of this discussion?
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Re: traction control again February 16, 2015 01:14PM
Nope, diff lock is not traction control, per se.
They are available from the friggin FACTORY on quality tractors.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to make diff locks illegal?
Except the ones that can't figure out how to make one for their pulling vehicle.
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Re: traction control again February 17, 2015 04:23AM
intercooler 4v commonrail all all factory too...i think all those should be legal too
as for tc if you cant/wont enforce ban then allow it.
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Re: traction control again February 17, 2015 04:37AM
Wow, traction control being legal......that'd be like saying component's are good to go in every tractor class (yes, even the archaic LLSS).................or air bags for everyone!!

LOL!!

Let's go one step further and just have things be remote controlled, then you could sit and drink with the fans AND pull at the same time! Take all the driving skill right out of the picture.
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Re: traction control again February 16, 2015 01:28PM
That would be pretty cool if you could just spend a couple grand instead of being able to drive your rig. That would take the challenge out of it being able to drive on all the different tracks. Then all that would seperate pullers would be the size of their checkbook.
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Re: traction control again February 17, 2015 06:18AM
I would like to hear from some TECH support. If there is a protest on traction control are they up to date enough to perform a proper check? And if so how would it be performed? I do understand there are different methods of traction control. If you are not a TECH please feel free to jump in here to help with some ideas where to start.
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Re: traction control again February 18, 2015 06:23AM
Where would a tech start looking for a traction control system? Last season we checked ignition boxes for USB ports and found none. There are so many different types available that you would have to tear a electrical system completely apart to be sure there is nothing there. I hope I never have to walk up to a puller and tell them I've got $500 from your fellow pullers and they want me to look for traction control.
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Re: traction control again February 18, 2015 09:29AM
No one wants to be the bad egg. How would you propose a better solution? Trust me we would like a better solution but no one seems to have a better idea. Make it legal, just overlook the problem, honor system does not work. Do I want to protest someone? No, but I will if it comes to it. I dont know what else to do that is why I am asking for help with this. Not much response on this topic please feel free to jump in we need a solution solver for this problem.
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Re: traction control again February 18, 2015 10:27AM
Well, here is an idea. This is only based on my limited knowledge, imagination and just flat out rumors that I have heard of how some traction control systems work. Since no one who has one, has developed one or is selling one is going to let anyone else in on any secrets, there are going to have to be a huge amount of assuming but at least it could be a start for someone out there. And I am not sure diesel competitors can apply this but, here we go.

The first steps that could be taken are to write a rule that indicates that any data logging must be separate from any ignition or fuel controls. This could be policed by putting a rule in place that all data acquisition wiring and connections must be identified by, let's say a certain color of sheathing. Similar to what some guys call "snake skin" at the parts store.
Then couple that rule with all ignition wiring must be sheathed in a different color. This should allow any tech team to perform tech and identify and follow the indicated wiring from sensor source to the data acquisition center and be able to identify ignition components and confirm that one is not connected to the other.
These rules should also put into place that any engine rpm sensing for data acquisition must be obtained separately from the ignition system. A competitor can put a separate pick up on say the dampener or flywheel or anything that reflects engine rpm but it cannot be part of the ignition system. If a competitor wants to run a tach that they can see, then that can be run through the ignition system but it must be "labeled" with the ignition sheathing and must be stand alone. It cannot be connected to the data logging system in any way.
Following along with the ability to follow the wiring schematic, write into the rules that no wiring can pass under the trans blanket and must be visible and easily accessed for inspection. Make the rules so that it is easy for the tech guy to do the job so that they actually do the job (Years ago in the IPA there was an ongoing argument that guys were putting resistors in the rpm pick up lines and in the outlet boxes. It was solved by mandating that competitors must use a commercially available orange drop cord as the pick up wiring and the end that the "box" plugged into could not be altered in any way,etc, etc. That cured that argument to this day.(For the most part))
I could go on with details but I believe that everyone understands what I am trying to describe.

The next idea deals with what I understand through rumors of function. I have heard that there are guys with a phone app that can operate ignition timing via Bluetooth or some other type of signal. Far fetched, I know but most rumors are based an small amount of truth.
I do know of some wireless downloads for data systems but since we have theoretically separated them from one another, the data logger is of no consequence to us.
So, now we isolate the ignition "box." This should be fairly easy by writing the rule that all ignition boxes must be covered by an .030 thick aluminum enclosure lined with .060 lead sheet.
This would be the equivalent of the tin foil hat that everyone wears to keep the government from listening in on your thoughts.
Lead sheets are available for purchase in various thicknesses and can be cut with a utility knife. This may add a pound, maybe two per ignition box but the goal is to keep the signal from getting to the box.

With these rules in place. A tech man can go to a vehicle, trace all data logging based on color, trace all ignition based on color and if one wire is not labeled it stands out, it now is more traceable than before. Now the two systems are separate. You have now also isolated the remote ignition control with the lead lined box.

So, there is a starting point for discussion. Perhaps I am on to something or perhaps I miscounted the Martini's during my two Martini lunch.

Good day.
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Re: traction control again February 18, 2015 03:37PM
First I would like to say thanks for the post. I like where you are going with this idea and yes it would be a simple start. All the wiring marked and routed in the open would sure make it alot easier to trace. I have seen wiring running out of weight boxes even in the rear of a truck. If you use a tel-a-tac I believe is what they are called they have screws in the front cover could be removed to check for extra parts. Saw one at the farm show last weekend that was empty no plugs on it and Friday noticed it was hooked back up. Again have heard rumors of little lights going on and off to indicate when it is working. Even heard of little warning beepers hooked up inside of helmets when it is being used. This would be a good start I know there would be margin for adjustments needed to enforce this and a little x-tra work but sure would be better than tearing into someones truck looking thru all the wiring and devices installed on their equipment.
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Re: traction control again February 20, 2015 10:33AM
So if PPL officials were told then does that mean someone's in someone's pocket?
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Re: traction control again February 19, 2015 02:20PM
Lets talk traction control , most of the pullers that are bitching about it dont have a clue how they even work, and they think that every top puller out there is running one, so lets tell every one out there how to stop the use of it, but then they would have to admit the are just getting beat buy a better puller.
Had a conversation with Silver gomez of msd , beens you can hide a davis traction control just about any where this is how nhra stoped the use of it,
they made power grid manatory and made rule that crank triger lead be in plain site from triger to power grid box , power grid is mounted in epoxy and can not be
takin apart with out destorying it, they have software that they will give out that can ck for traction control up to 24 hours after a run even if traction control is removed from truck after the run. PPL OFFICALS WERE told of this solition but choose not to do any thing about it.
So if any one is really wanting this problem gone thats the cure, but remember then you will have to admit you just got your ass beat !!!
Are trucks can be cked any time for traction controls , but its golng to cost 500 to look
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Re: traction control again February 20, 2015 03:18AM
or couldn't the pulling association sell the ignition boxes to pullers so you have a big brother kinda watching whats happening? it would take some time cuz people aren't going to scrap a current working box to get a new approved box from the pulling group. just an idea. high gear hag i like how the drag guys are approaching this. id have no problem making it clear that i don't have it. but to get others to go along and actually want it to stop and be regularly checked could be a problem.
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Re: traction control again February 20, 2015 12:08PM
Terry,
Can you explain how this works to an advantage? I've read about the power grid and as I understand it's really acceleration control. In drag racing where you have multiple qualifying runs on a track I can see where the racer can tune the system in, but in pulling where you typically get one shot at the track how do you know before the run how much acceleration the track can take?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 01:18AM by Deere Puller.
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Re: traction control again February 20, 2015 12:27PM
I'm just wondering but doesn't it work along the lines that if your going down the track and the box sense it's loosing rpm it kicks in and does something with the timeing which gives more rpm and increase in wheel speed?
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Re: traction control again February 21, 2015 01:17AM
Pretty sure it's the opposite. You set a maximum acceleration rate and if the engine is accelerating faster than the programmed limit it takes timing out and/or drops cylinders to keep the acceleration rate at the limit. So, if the track can take more or less than you anticipated your going to be behind someone that drives by feeling the slip. I may be way off, that's why I asked.
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Re: traction control again February 25, 2015 10:29AM
It is all over pulling and would be nice to see it dealt with or made legal. Right know only the cheaters with no morals are getting the advantage of it. I pull with tri-state and see it in our 4x4 class and the ones using it in that class flat out lie to the other members faces and out right steal there money. Takes a low life piece of trash to do that so what to do i am not sure. Just because i pull a tractor does'nt mean we don't here it. I say grab there entire ignition system and send it in. Found illegal the truck and puller are banned for life even if the truck changes owners. Let the club buy an ignition system and trade out under a protest or random deal and get rid of the bottom feeders.
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Re: traction control again February 25, 2015 11:23AM
Is it illegal in PPL? If so, please direct me to the proper page in the rule book.
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Re: traction control again February 25, 2015 12:31PM
Page 16, under ignition/dataloggers
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Re: traction control again February 25, 2015 01:30PM
Sorry - page 16 only addresses programmable ignitions and timing delay for 4 PPL classes. What about the other classes?
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Re: traction control again February 26, 2015 07:34PM
Ok well doesn't traction control have to do with timing?
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Re: traction control again February 27, 2015 04:43AM
Your trying to fight a battle you cannot win. Traction control is being achieved using dataloggers and rev limiters and their not going to outlaw those. I prefer the old fashion way of traction control, it's called knowing how to drive. As a spectator, I like to see what man (or woman) can do with his (or her) machine, not what machine can do for man, but some people just have to win no matter what.
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Re: traction control again March 04, 2015 02:27AM
People are without a doubt sing traction control. If I ever need traction control to win I will retire.
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Re: traction control again March 04, 2015 06:11AM
I agree if i had to use it i would quit out of pure shame to myself and fellow pullers thinking i were a piece of trash.It seems to always be the one who has spent 10 times more money than every other puller trying to buy first place, And there is someone on a budget kicking there rears and they resort to cheating because they are trying to buy there image or self pride. There image is that of a insecure baby to me.
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Re: traction control again March 04, 2015 02:33PM
Now I feel better after all the response everyone using any form of traction control is feeling bad for ever putting it on and they are out in the shop removing it at this time! Well we all know that is not going to happen. What I would like to see is the organizations start doing random checks on all the pulling classes. I know this will take time most of the hooks are two days when they walk up to me on Saturday afternoon and start tracing wires and asking questions and finish their check it will be a dam good feeling to thank them for checking my truck over and then everyone will know I am playing fair! Now I know this sounds easy and it is not this simple but it would be a start. Now lets say they do find it on a pulling vehichle what should we do? That is simple! Make it a band for life done deal! Anyone who would use it would not stand for their children stealing from another child! So what is the difference than their parents doing the same thing if they advance one position on the track? Ya think about that one for a while! If that does not bother you than I guess you can continue using it like some spineless good for nothing waste of a person you are. Yes I have no tolerance for a thief! I am sure their are good people using it because they did not no what else to do and they just got tired of the guy parked beside him cheating and pretending to be your friend. Trust me no trust yourself you do not need friends that bad. For the ones not using yet take the money you will spend and use it on protest instead of becoming one of them! And for the ones using get rid of it and start making the rest responsible for their actions! ya ya ya I know I could put it on my truck and I would still not move to the front right now but one thing about it I can say I finished last and feel like a man and tell my family and friends honestly where I placed. Can you? I would like to thank everyone for their post and for the pullers not using have a good night and a safe good year of pulling looking forward to seeing everyone this summer!

Dean Still
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Re: traction control again March 04, 2015 11:10PM
Very well said !
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Re: traction control again March 05, 2015 09:43AM
Random checks and a protest of changing out ignition box for a club owned box. box has chip in the club keeps chip and box truck and puller banned for life. truck banned regardless of owner. That is what i think would be a good start and i bet the leader board changes some and people come up with a million excuses why not to do this. Would make pulling alot more fair and people would have alot less doubt of other pullers.
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Re: traction control again March 05, 2015 10:25AM
Guys there is no feasible way for any association to tech for this. There are hundreds of companies out there that make this stuff and it all isn't in the ignition box. You might as well put it on or just quit. Traction control will make a top ten team better but will not make a back pack team top ten. I agree traction control is bs but it is here to stay people. If you were not competitive before you put it on you will not be competitive with it. Engine, clutch, chassis, gearing and all that goes into those things is what will make you competitive.
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Re: traction control again March 06, 2015 01:26AM
I do not pull but I do enjoy going to watch several pulls a year so I am ignorant of what classes are believed to be using a traction control device? Is it across the board? Diesel vs. non-diesel classes? The reason I ask is that in Louisville this year I noticed the butterflies on the injection units go wide open on several two wheeler's right off the line but the engine RPM's didn't go up immediately. Those engines seemed to take longer to get on the top end.
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Re: traction control again March 07, 2015 12:13PM
So what's the best way to check for it or Eliminate it??? I'd like to see it outlawed
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Re: traction control again March 12, 2015 06:31AM
On 2wd trucks and 4x4 gas it is not uncommon. 2 have a delay in the motor "getting on
top" . Once a team figures it out you usally slip the clutch or raise the rpm . 2 high of a gear will
cause this also. Old fahion traction control. Our truck would always do this with one
piticular camshaft. It won a lot of pulls it would lift the wheels at 100 ft or so and get on top.
The throttle was pinned from 30 foot.
Hope this helps when observing.
Mike
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Re: traction control again March 12, 2015 06:32AM
Replying to igonant of
Mike
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Re: traction control again March 15, 2015 01:32AM
Traction Control is almost impossible to detect.In sprint car racing it is against the rules but is so high tech that it is not even looked for..The fatter the rule book the more rules are broken.
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