Cummins Questions May 06, 2009 03:01PM
Looking at putting a cummins in an oliver for LLSS...My question is this...I can run alky, be right in contention with the cube rule (rule is 370 or less on Alcohol) but...I would really prefer to stay diesel, as I know not a clue about alcohol, how to set it up, how to tune it. If i go alcohol I would have to find a head...the more I think about it, the more I want to stay diesel... now, I would be at a cube disadvantage (diesels are allowed 470) Is there any ways to get more cubes out of the Cummins 5.9 Stroke? Sleeves? Just looking, I think I would be out about the same to convert the tractor over to alky as I would build a bottom end. What do you think?
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Re: Cummins Questions May 06, 2009 03:19PM
check with your rules the club around here has no deisel convertions, must have a gas head
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Re: Cummins Questions May 06, 2009 03:25PM
If I decide to run alcohol, I will get a LP head. I really want to stay diesel, can you stroke these things? Who and where?
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Re: Cummins Questions May 06, 2009 04:07PM
Long term and short term alcohol is going to be cheaper than trying to go bigger on diesel. I like diesel a awful lot too, but the alcohol fuel system is going to be alot cheaper and alot cheaper to maintain. the shortblock will be alot cheaper and live longer on alcohol. As far as going bigger, 4.25 bore and 5.375 stroke would get you where you want to be but boring the "cast in" sleeve out of the block will lose alot of strength. The 6.7 dodge motor is factory 4.212 bore, using that block and 5.5 bore (stroked about 3/4) would make 459CID and would probably make for a more reliable bottom end.
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Re: Cummins Questions May 07, 2009 02:01AM
Cummins diesel all the way!! lotsa parts available, there are even billet cranks for them out there. a good 13mm p pump will be very reliable put a nice little holset charger on some good injectors and go to town
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Re: Cummins Questions May 07, 2009 02:20PM
well, there is a puller there in Kentucky running a cummins on alcohol. maybe you should get ahold of them ! maybe they will just build you an engine. they run with orvtpa.
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Re: Cummins Questions May 07, 2009 02:58PM
Holler at Jerry Sipes , he is running a 5.9 cummins on alky . Dang strong to . just my 2 cents ..
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Re: Cummins Questions May 07, 2009 03:02PM
i have wondered how the cummins would run in that class on diesel...there has been a lot of R&D put into those motors with truck pulling...i would call some of the big truck guys and see what they have to say
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Re: Cummins Questions May 08, 2009 12:04AM
Here is a quick look at the rules...

3.Maximum limit of 470 cubic inches (diesel engines). Single turbo 3” x 4” max. Engines up to 505
cubic inches (diesel) shall have a max 3”x 3” small foot turbochargers.
4.Maximum limit of 370 cubic inches (alcohol engines). Single turbo 3”x 4” max.
5.Diesel engines under 315 cubic inches may run two compressor stages, each at 3” x 4”. Engines
may run an intercooler. Engines above 315 CI may only run one turbo charger.
6.Maximum limit of 410 cubic inches (diesel engines). Engines may run an intercooler. Single
turbo 3”x 4” maximum.
7.Engines below 410 cubic inch may run an intercooler.


Everything looks toward Alcohol, staying at stock cubic inches, and going with a Columbus charger, they have several models that fit the bill. I will definetly ask more questions, I have a ton right now. We'll start with this...how do you tune these things...


In my mind, It seems as if you would have adjustment for when each of injectors opens and delivers fuel, and that the fuel pump (belt driven?) has adjustments to increase or decrease fuel pressure/volume. Or is there a "boost reference valve?" Is this anywhere near right?
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Re: Cummins Questions May 08, 2009 02:46AM
Gordyville 09 LLSS Finals Results:

1 - Hawthornes - Badger State - 410 intercooled
2 - Danny Barker - Not Sure - More than 410??
3 - Kevin Engleking - Badger State - 315 Twins
4 - Darin Hynick - East Central Iowa - 410 Intercooled
5 - Alan Mohr - East Central Iowa - 410 Intercooled

From first to fifth if memory serves me right was about 6 ft. My point here is that these rules are similar to those at Gordy. A well tuned 410 with an intercooler seems to be more competative than the bigger diesel without one using these results as a measuring stick. 410 C.I. would be a lot easier to accomplish with your Cummins than the 474 you are taklin about - which I am not sure will even fit - less costly as well - then you can put those $$ you saved into an intercooler.
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Re: Cummins Questions May 08, 2009 03:54AM
I can use a new cummins block, since they are the replacement for the 5.9, they are at 408ci. Will heads interchange or will I have to have one made?
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Re: Cummins Questions May 08, 2009 08:03AM
The alky fuel systems aren't that complicated, especially for a small single charger like you are talking about. Yes, belt (or cam if you want to build it) driven fuel pump. Yes, boost reference valve - it goes in the return line from the barrel valve (linked to butterfly & throttle) back to the tank. You have 2 or 3 nozzles per port, 1 is direct from the barrel valve & essentially fuels it when there is no boost. The other(s) are on pressure valves that open when the system pressure rises. System pressure rises when boost pressure causes the sensor valve restricts the return.

Hilborn makes a sensor valve, Enderle does not. The rest can be done with either Hilborn or Enderle parts - they're pretty much the same except Enderle has a 2 piece nozzle design that seperates the orfice from the nozzle - a little easier to change for tuning.
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Re: Cummins Questions May 08, 2009 10:17AM
Oliver Dreams, Those look like the rules that we adopted for the Michigan Truck and Tractor Pullers Club in West Michigan. Give me a call, we have some local guys that know those Cummins engines pretty well and can probably help you out right here. The more tractors the better!
Wayne Stine
231-409-9228
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Re: Cummins Questions May 09, 2009 04:02PM
yeah, Jerry is the one. i love the looks of that tractor as well. thanks SKPPARTS !!
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Re: Cummins Questions May 14, 2009 07:27AM
i dont know what power you are looking for but a cummins on diesel with a water to air cooler and a 3 in. charger will make over 1000 h.p. look at woodruffdiesel.com and give them a call.don that works there has a cummins in his tractor.good people
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Re: Cummins Questions July 05, 2009 08:21PM
If the woodruff diesel tractor you are talking about is an oliver 1650(I think) it doesn't even come close to the alky tractors. I saw it run in Paris and I think it went 150' or something. If you want the diesel to run ith the alkys you gotta get close to the 470" While alky is a little cheaper and more durable if you want to work on the tractor yourself and have a 505" limit then go with the 8.3 Cummins. The 5.9 will not run with the alkys unless it's on alky. If you want to run the bigger charger then destroke the 8.3 a little and you ill have a torque monster!
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Re: Cummins Questions July 06, 2009 02:12PM
I think the 359 on diesel would make enough power to keep up with others. A good cam, injectors, and pump goes a long way on these little motors. There is a man in russell co ky building a 359 on alcohol, lewis connor I think is his name. He would have some good tips
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Re: Cummins Questions July 06, 2009 05:28PM
The only way a 5.9 diesel will even start to be competitive against the same size alkys and +100" diesels is if you spend $45,000 + and then you are just barely knocking on the door. You might get close with a reasonable cost with nitrous, but not allowed to run it hardly anywhere. You have to remember the other tractors are running roller cams, huge injectors, pumps, etc... or alky Now don't get me wrong, I love my Cummins in my truck and enjoy watching the 2.8s pull but its just not the right choice for a LLSS unless its alky injected. Get ahold of Jerry Sipes for alky cummins info, he seems to have it figured out and is running strong. Long Live LLSS and the best group in the world ORVTPA / BOB!
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