Carnage at Keystone March 19, 2016 06:19AM
Rough weekend so far...


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 19, 2016 02:32PM
OUCH! Who are they? What class? As I am not familiar with east coast pullers.

The engine being carried I assume belongs to the Deere.

IH is a single charger and yet lifted the engine like happens to Pro Stock and Diesel Super Stock.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 20, 2016 01:08AM
Deere is a 10PS that belongs to Bryan Saathoff from Ridgely, Maryland. It was one of the original Robert Martin tractors. IH is the "Sidewinder" of Matt Durbin from New Philadelphia, Ohio an NTPA Light Pro.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 20, 2016 06:20AM
Bryan saathoffs pro stock is the former deerestroyer 4.1 limited pro, Bobby saathoffs owns the former Martin pro stock and is called family affair
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 20, 2016 11:58PM
It's a testament to the safety of our sport when those kind of explosions can occur within the close proximity of drivers, officials and fans and no one gets hurt. Kudos to that.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 12:59AM
Nah, no need for Billet Blocks in the classes! Are we gonna keep going till someone gets hurt or killed? I bet either of those gentleman would gladly put a $20K block in to avoid these huge distruction blowups and the very real possibility of being hurt! All classes SF on up should be allowed Billet blocks and/or have to install an inspected and approved systems to tie the stock blocks together top to bottom. Either or competitors choice.

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 01:37AM
Billet blocks are not the answer for safety,safety equiment is. dont fool yourself!!
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 01:59AM
Why is it every time something blows up, billet is to be the end all, cure all answer to solve the problem. Billet gets destroyed in the same manner.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 10:10AM
money that's why the parts builders want to sell billet blocks . When a wastegate would do the same thing . and a tie system
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 02:18AM
Was there and seen it happen. Afterwords I looked at the aftermath up close.....the simple $20 cable and $200 side sheilds did their job. You spend 20k on a block.....I'll spend $220 on simple items.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 10:09AM
The tie system I agree with the billet blocks I don't agree with. The sport has grown way to expensive now there needs to be boost limits put in place via preset waste gate. Not expensive turbo rules but a 1000.00 waste gate that everyone runs.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 05:58AM
Did you get into Pulling because it was an economical motorsport? You were mis-informed, we already pay 20K for Turbos and 100K for motors and 15K for wheels and Tires and some guys are allowed a 10K Billet crank, but lordy a Billet block will ruin the class. A Billet block done right will last many many seasons, so the cost is potentially less.

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 06:34AM
A regular cast block done right and with some limits will do the same.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 06:44AM
The one good thing is the place was not full of people. If the place was full maybe someone would have got hit and maybe not. We do not know for sure if pieces did land outside the track. There was not a lot of open area. As far as a indoor hook these are things that need to considered when setting up a pull. How far do people need to be away from the track? Pulling has turned into a mini NHRA. The money being spent for the return is crazy. But that is open for conversation. As hard as some of these tractor are being turned rpm wish and the amount of parts that are not true performance parts being used is part of the unknown. The other thing what would have happened if someone was hit with broken pieces. Who would be responsible? the tractor owner, pulling organizers, sponsors. What does the waiver say? Know one wants to answers these questions. Most pullers think it will not happen to them. Someone better wake up!
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 01:28PM
so your telling me that a 1500 wastegate preset that everyone runs wouldn't help for sure the light class. A billet block isn't going to do nothing but cost another 20 grand . Boost can be made without spending 20 grand on turbos. And in a few years there will be 4 tractors in the class as it is turning into a millionaires sport. Without some kind of restrictions the sport will fade away , your already seeing it in several classes now.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 12:40AM
So what do we set these preset wastegates at? Who will Police them? What happens if they malfunction who works on them who cleans them, if my regulator goes bad as they regularly do who swaps it out? Oh and I don't wait for stuff to go bad I try to figure out when to change before it goes bad, so who does the routine maintance on this unit? HOGWASH! Limits are more expensive than none just ask any competitor in the SF class.

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 01:17AM
Wastegate limits are for holding back the better competition.holding back is not what the sport is about. NASCAR is a perfect example of rules to keep the competition the same. Now look at there attendance, it's dwindling
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:08AM
I would respectfully disagree with your statement. It does not hold back the better competition, it holds back (and no offense to anyone) the teams with unlimited budgets and or those running components that just were weaker to start with. Many of your better pullers simply cant afford to spend as much on their vehicle as others. Really there isn't a simple solution for either side of the fence.

Bob, If billet blocks were allowed, would they not be pushed harder than the current block? If so the explosive force in the billet block will be far greater than the current setups. At some point will they not be just as unsafe or potentially more unsafe than what we have now? I'm definitely no metallurgy guy but I've been around this sport long enough to know that you build the front til you break the back, fix it and start over, the dog continues to chase its tail with the check book and # of competitors left participating are the only ones it affects.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:34AM
I don't believe if designed and built right from the right materials no they wont also fail. There is a limit of how high boost can go before the methanol under pressure detonates period. Also I think the limits of were we are isn't far off what can be done and what can be applied to the track with a 6200lbs vehicle, yes over the next 10 years probably another 500 horse may be produced but its not a situation were its possible to double the current power made. Look at Fuel Dragsters, they produce now 11,000Hp with a block way lighter than anything that should be put into a Tractor, again the design and the material allow this. We are looking for durability so we can make all the hooks. With the New Generation of Heads and Turbos that the top Competitors are running the power level of how much fuel is being used per cycle has put a lot more load on parts than some outrageous boost number guys talk about on here. For instance my old engine would live pretty dang good at 110psi and we thought we were getting after it! This New head with better chamber, more airflow, fuel being put in in different locations, and Turbos with hi tech Billet wheels all Ball bearinged we cant push past 95psi sleeves expand crack block burn piston throw out rod! Me Jason Hootman Mike Wilhite and most of the other Ford guys are having the same issues. So what do we do back down to 90psi and go run for 5th place? If John Deere guys weak link is their crankshaft and they can substitute a Cummins crank or buy a Billet crank, and yes there are billet cranks in the LSS class, why cant us Ford guys replace our weak link the Block? The Fans do not care they want to see all of us battle for a win!

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 10:09AM
lol on the 95 lbs and yes they will keep pushing until the billet breaks . And why 6200 lb lets make it a light class at 5800lbs The bootom line is the class as is true is the whole sport is not about pulling anymore its about money and yes certain restrictions are expensive but others are not. We all run wastegates sure the guy with billet turbos is gonna be harder to beat then the guy with box turbos but it sure would even the class out and make it fun again instead of a money game. Indy cars draw for a wastegate you put up a bounty of claimer to purchase a wastegate say 1500 every tractor is setup to use the same one easy to install and remove . You go to the entry trailer and the secretary rolls you a number u get that wastegate every time u get a different 1 .
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:55AM
Kudos to you AAR
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 03:46AM
Amen Bob.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 09:48AM
The assc. does you pay a fee and then every pull you draw for numbers and are given a wastegate. Hogwash on costing more . Actually a lot cheaper as in set at 100lbs boost $2500 worth of trubos will do the job. Sure more expensive ones may be better but that's owners call Indy cars do it all the time is the indy 500 dieing? You watch esp. the light class die it will be soon . Why you selling yours? Why Wilhite selling? Its not because you don't have time I was born at night but not last night. A set wastegate would even the class a bit and save competitors a pile of money and them regualtors are a crock as far as going bad been told that a million times when in reality the regulator is just fine.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 10:57AM
Your 100 pound wastegate and $2500 turbo set up will keep you in at the back of the pack, now and then. A preset wastegate will do little to even the class. Big money will still prevail and win. A wastegate needs to be cleaned and checked on a alky LSS every few passes to keep it from sticking. How will you accomplish that with a sealed preset wastegate?? You need to understand the fundamentals of the meaning of boost in relationship to power ouput.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 11:23AM
Build an up to date Tractor and Motor and see what you have to say then Smuggler, again I ran my old stuff at 110 and it stayed! You aint deep enough in to understand!

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 12:42PM
Im deep enough in to know you cant beat the red tractors you put yours for sale im deep enough in to know if wilhite cant beat them he sells or whines for a billet block. Say what ever you want but a preset wastegate would even the score. And im deep enough in to realize that the class will be dead shortly if something isn't changed and im deep enough in to know that 6200lbs isn't a light class and im deep enough in to know the workings of a wastegate 1206 dude who cant sign his name
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 01:19PM
Quote
smuggler
and im deep enough in to know the workings of a wastegate 1206 dude who cant sign his name

he doesn't need to sign his name. if you click on it his phone # is posted. pretty easy to figure out who he is.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:08PM
A preset wastegate would do little to even that class and what little it did would only be temporary. They would tune around it pretty quickly which would only make it more expensive. It is not only red tractors , I can think of a few JD LSS tractors that are extremely competitive. 6200 pounds is plenty light for nearly 4000hp , there are enough wild rides in that class no need to make it lighter and get somebody hurt. You should study airflow, volumetric efficiency and physics to understand the flaws in the preset wastegate theory.

Andy Evans Dunlap IA 712-310-2559
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 03:43AM
Whats the name of your alky tractor ih1206puller?
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 09:50AM
I have to agree with whomever said the IH split on a hard front end bounce. I watched the video a bunch of times and it seems to look like the failure happened right after the hard hit. I also saw other pics showing the clutch and crank together with the input shaft sticking out of the clutch, to me that says the trans casting busted apart as part of the failure which let the input shaft slide right out. I think the connection point at bell housing to trans housing connection failure started the chain reaction. Before tube frames the old frame rails would take a hit like that, to a certain extent of course. But in this "Lightened Class" how much integrity is taken away to get "light", just openly asking?

Whatever anyone thinks or wants to think, the end result was complete destruction of the tractor, which is sad. Everyone knows the countless hours in time and the money spent was basically "Dumped in a pile on the track". The side shields did do their job well as did the other safety equipment. There's always going to be "Coulda woulda shoulda"....Done this or happened. No one was hurt, everyone will learn something from this, one way or another. Sad for that team indeed.

Just my 2 cents......Red712
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 09:54AM
Billet blocks with cast trans and rears?
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 10:11AM
I'd be more inclined to say the rear end let go, which in turn over revved the engine, which grenaded it including breaking the crank sending it out the bottom which broke the adapter plate when the back half of the crank wanted out all of which while the front end was up. Wasnt much left to stabilize the chassis as it landed and so it wrinkled it pretty good too. If you look at Adam's pics you can pretty well see what happened.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 12:41PM
Is there a video of the ih letting go?
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 10:54AM
Honestly it doesn't matter what class it is anymore.its all going to die out with fans and pullers. No one wants to watch a pro stock class full of John deeres,no one wants to watch a diesel super stock class full of red ones just like no one wants to watch a combined super stock class where the alcohol tractors kick ass everytime. Different brands need different things in order to stay together. Pulling wouldn't be so expensive for some of us if we didn't have to spend so much to keep a certain brand together. So what's the answer we all just run the same brand??
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 01:32PM
The fenders diid not tilt forward until it over revved, and blew the loots out. Watch the fenders when you watch the video and you will clearly see what happened. Broken drive line - reaction time + over revved engine = explosion! Bad deal indeed. One side of the tie bars was left holding it together, but barely. Parts and pieces went downward onto the ground as intended. If I was gonna change anything safety wise, it would be more support in the tie bar area, especially how they connect to the frame rails.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 26, 2016 12:57AM
We could all watch the video if someone would post the link.......
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Re: Video March 28, 2016 02:18AM
[youtu.be]
Not sure who took this video, but it came off of Facebook



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2016 02:28AM by Drifter.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 28, 2016 02:21AM
Sidewinder explosion at Keystone
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 01:47AM
Billet will eventually explode at some point too. But everyone is going to push the billet further so when they do blow it will be and even bigger mess. Having billet everything doesn't mean breakage is over.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 01:55AM
Like rebel red said no one got hurt so the side shields did there job for the crowd and the cable around the engine did it's job for the drivers. Never seen a SF blow the bottom end out but everything above that. Yes a billet might help but they will eventually fail and that's where the cable and side shields come into play. And definitely the tie bars. No body ever wants to have there engine explode but it will and has and will keep happening.
Bill.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 10:13AM
I wasn't there and I am not sure what happened to the red tractor but looked to me like the flywheel let go at some point. Why else was it broke in half? A billet block wouldn't have did much there if that's the case.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 10:49AM
The john deere had issues with the valve train before it even left the line. It was huffing like a valve was hung up or broken rocker. It should have never been ran and heard by the driver while being warmed it. It was doomed from the beginning
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 11:13AM
Was there and saw the red tractor. Sure looked to me like the bellhousing let go on a hard front end landing (queue the air bag discussion!), everything went south from there. Full clutch assembly was on the engine when I went to see it in the pits.

I must say it was a great demonstration of safety equipment at work over the weekend!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2016 11:14AM by FarmersFun.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 11:17AM
I was there. The red tractor lost the connection between the clutch and tires someplace and the engine couldn't take the high rpm. It was broke in half because the crank / clutch went down taking the flywheel housing with it. Maybe a heavier block saver plate would have helped
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 12:50PM
My video of the run shows a metal piece falling off under the tractor at the starting line when building boost. I thought the flagman should've caught it, but didn't.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 02:17PM
being from iowa i didnt make it there but breakage aside how was the pull i am not hearing anything except the bad things i hope the pull was a success overall and hope the good out weighs the bad
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 03:50PM
I am just a west coast thinker,, BUT I have always assumed that the broken block is caused by fluid in the combustion chamber, causing the piston to hydraulic against the head. This can be caused by a valve train failure or the tip blown off of a fuel injector. IF hydraulic forces cause this kind of catastrophic block failure I think a billet block can fail too.. OR am I off base on this??
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 21, 2016 09:39PM
you're correct gonzo.........When an engine blows apart like that one did, it was and is almost always a exhaust rocker issue. The exhaust valve stays closed and the fuel keeps building up until it hydraulics. Top fuel cars blow blocks apart due to the same reason. They have to use a spec block and it still happens. Boost ain't got nothing to do with it.

The new blocks ain't "BILLET"..........why can't tractor pullers get that.

Tractors today, like that NTPA????????? lite pro should not be sawing themselves in half like that one did. It's a miracle someone is not dead. There's no kudos for the safety equipment on that tractor. from the video it all failed. Let's hope he builds it right the next time.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 12:15AM
Yeppers, name which safety component failed, I'd be interested to hear your opinion and your name

Oh and by the way the new blocks arent billet because billet blocks aren't allowed only recast are. However there are several chunks on floors just waiting for the day that they are allowed don't you worry Winking



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2016 01:14AM by AAR.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 01:36AM
Yeah, I'm interested in knowing what safety features failed as well.

The driver was not injured, parts did not become projectiles and fly out into the crowd and hit anyone, and the tie bars did their job.

At the end of the day, everything stayed within the confinements of the firewall and frame rails.

Enlighten us...
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 22, 2016 05:01AM
A silver lining in the situation.
First hand, I believe the inner side shields that were on the IH saved people from injury or death. There we hundreds of pieces large and small contained under the tractor for the most part. A WIN for safety. I only posted the picture to show the side shield and the amount of what could have been into the crowd.
As "Old Line" said, all safety equipment did its job!


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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:43AM
Tractor pulling will go to billet blocks at some point in the sport. I would rather have seen the sport go with billet blocks before they went with the ridiculous, sport killing “ any motor, any sheet metal” rule that they passed several years ago. The one thing that makes the sport interesting, and a huge selling point is “ brand loyalty”. Does it really help the sport to tell the fans that, no you are not really rooting for a [fill in the blank] just the sheet medal. Terrible rule.

I realize the standard answer to the billet block question when a puller complains that the Hyper block is legal so why shouldn't I have the ability to also compete with a billet block of MY choice as well, is just run a Hyper block in your JD, New Holland, MM, etc. The sport needs to build on brand loyalty, not kill it!


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 02:54AM
Mr. Morgan

What is needed and will never happen is sanctioning organizations who control there product. Enforce the rules, work to make a fair playing field for all and control costs for all. But none the of present organizations are structured to do that or have manpower to accomplish that. So we live with what we get.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 04:25AM
Mr Morgan

I disagree with your billet block/ brand loyalty statement. What brand loyalty is left when you have a billet block, billet head, billet rods/pistons, billet front cover ?? What brank loyalty is left when everything from oil pan to valve cover and flywheel to harmonic balancer is aftermarket?? What brand loyalty is left when the only thing OEM are some basic engine dimensions/measurements?? THe any engine/sheetmetal rule (should) allow off brand colors to be competitive at a reasonable cost- if their is such a thing.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 04:58AM
All of the comments of how preset wastegates will solve all the problems and even out the classes are made by people who don't understand air flow and the real definition of boost. Boost is a measure of restriction and does not directly relate to power output. An efficient engine will use the air instead of turning it into boost. Stormy's comment on how his carnage now occurs at 95 pounds with his efficiency improvements and how his old setup ran at 110 pounds of boost and was reliable is prime example of how a boost number doesn't directly correlate to performance output. His power output is much higher at 95 than it was a 110. Boost numbers between 2 tractors/setups is comparing apples with oranges. Esdon Lehn or Terry Blackbourn could probably do a better job at explaining this.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 05:43AM
I understand that he makes more power at 95 psi then he did years ago at 110 psi. He is flowing more air now, simple. However, he stil has the ability to bump his boost to 110 psi and have even more power. Which believe me, people are going to do and are doing. Therefore, a wastegate would be a limiter, though affect different tractors at different magnitudes.

I am not for a wastegate or billet blocks fyi.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 06:29AM
I agree, a preset wastegate would affect everyone differently, would tame down some and turn others into grenades. That is why preset wastegates would never equalize a class or really make it safer. They would just find a way to tune around it. There are LLS tractors running far more than 110 pounds of boost and using it very efficiently/effectively.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 11:05AM
Quote
IH1206PULLER
There are LLS tractors running far more than 110 pounds of boost and using it very efficiently/effectively.

isnt that EXACTLY the point smuggler is making? so they are running 115-125 AND using it efficiently but the wastegate idea wont help? sure sounds like it would. knock everyone back to 100lbs [heck make it 80 or 90] and that wound bring them back to the pack. Maybe crack down on electronic timing control and electronic boost control too. just sayin.......
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 23, 2016 12:25PM
Who really cares what engine is under the hood? I sure don't. The tractor aspect has left the planet and is not coming back. If people want to see tractors battle it out, then make them pure stocks and see how long that lasts. Maybe at the big pulls like BG, you could get Watters world to do a walkabout, or even Jay Leno and see how many of the crowd can tell the difference between an IH or JD block. Top fuel is Nhra's biggest draw and they all run the same engines and blocks dictated by the rules. Maybe tractor pulling needs a spec engine in the upper levels and make it stick. Formula 1 teams are restricted to 5 engines per year. These people have billions of dollars behind them and they put limits on the cars and engines to keep costs down. These teams can cost a billion dollars per year to fund.

Be honest, those that really care what name is cast in a block are maybe 10% of the spectators, the other 90% could care less.

Billet blocks are a pipe dream, a fantasy someone thinks can be whittled out in any ole machine shop. I am assuming you are talking about billet high alloy steel? Yes/no? Aluminum is no biggie, but matching a block of steel that large will take some serious equipment. Just the tooling costs would be astronomical. What's next after billet?......Forged. When you pray for billet keep in mind that the grain structure in billet only goes one way. Cut through it in a high stress area and it's no stronger than most other materials.

This nonsense about this or that is killing the sport has been a long standing threat that has been going on long before some of you were born. I don't think any restrictions really affect NASCAR attendance. People get burnt out sooner or later. There is no way NASCAR is going to start killing spectators or drivers in order to sell tickets. Lets hope pulling cleans up it's act before it gets to that.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 12:39AM
Factory Rods are forged steel and even heat treated and good bolts put in they wont hold up like the ones we use made from Billet 7075, yes with the grain structure flowing the right way through the rod. Blocks could be made from billet steel, there is a ULSS with a Billet 4140 steel block in it today! It can be done, and it will better the sport. The economical way is Billet 7075 Aluminum that's actually Forged into a rectangle block that's the only way material this size is available, but also making them stronger. I'm not against a recast block engineered to stay together but I have researched this at length, the cost to get to the point of casting the first block is enormous, and there isn't really enough Ford guys out there to spread the cost out, IMO. What we figured is each guy would have about 40K in their first block, and something between 15-20 after that. A billet 7075 Aluminum block would be something under 20K right out of the gate.

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 03:37AM
Just put a red motor in and be happy.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 04:38AM
How do you regulate billet blocks? What dimensions have to match that of an OEM block?
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 06:34AM
The Classes would have to get their heads together and decide I guess, but IMO Im for giving everyone everything! Make it as HP friendly as possible for any brand, and what I mean is raise the cam up where you don't have to put that stupid notch in your rods to clear, whatever needs I guess. At this point I'd stay bore centerlines same as factory and deck heights and such, because we have all spent so much getting to were we are. If we were at the beginning I'd say lets come together and agree on a generic block something that gives us everything we need, and call Allen Johnson and see what he could make about 50 of em for! Unfourtunately we are past that point now!

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 09:58AM
Then allow V8s!
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 12:13PM
What I don't understand I was told by a ford lss puller from ky that the ford block wont take over 120lbs of boost or it cracks somewhere around the cam , I believe he said. Then you Mr Barbie tell me u only run 95lbs of boost so the block should be holding up just fine so maybe you have other issues? I cant help much all my stuff is pretty old and out dated so I wouldn't have a clue, But for being old and out dated I does respectable,. What does stormy cost anyways? Of course I wouldn't need the hood I would just strap mine on there,
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 01:04AM
Smuggler, why are you so obsessed with a number? Boost number is a bragging right thing after the pull, some brag High some brag low. When you see cracks around the counterbores and your sleeves are swelling and burning pistons, can keep rings in for a few runs, I'm smart enough to know what the metal is trying to tell me. And yes all us Ford guys are fighting the same thing! I promise you the best running tractors in the class are nowhere near 120psi, maybe at Louisville or something testing. Its no fun anymore to come home and pull engine all the way down almost weekly to keep it running, its defeating. Im done explaining the mechanics of whats going on here you clearly don't want to understand. See you on the circuit this summer if you can make it out!

BB
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 03:12AM
Stormy, have you considered asking the Commander to build your engine? He runs a Ford and I heard he hasn't had any block issues. And you can't argue that his tractor lacks power.....
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 01:35PM
The truth of the matter is. Classes should max out at 510 ci. 1-It won't stop all failures but it sure would cut down on them. 2- You could put together a pretty stout block for darn near any brand without going billet. 3- Brand loyalty could be kept. The action would be just as fast and the engines would whine just as hard and the sport as a whole would grow with all kind of colors. I dont understand why it is so unpopular
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 24, 2016 07:18PM
With today's technology a 466 is large enough, and 500 would be the largest ever needed in the future. The promoters had to work with allowing huge engines to get any show off the ground and before they knew what hit them, the engines were out of hand. If these so called advanced engine builders are worth half what the claim building 466 engines should be a walk in the park.Smaller engines.. lighter tractors and less turbos, and you will have something that will have a life span. In professional racing cranks, rods, blocks, are all replaced at predetermined number of passes. If you big shots have money to build 300-500,000.00 toys, you should know when it's time to scrap a block or a crank, rods, and ect. Running your junk till it blows parts all over the track and at the spectators, does not show much professionalism, yet you seem to have plenty of money to throw in a new engine that you are just going to run, till it blows up again.

If you have to run your unit on kill just to guard your position on the wall of heroes, you might consider who's the fool. I see the comment that the classes should get together.......That's been the most stupid approach since farmers found pulling tractors was less work than pulling horses...The organizations should act and make it effective on a specified date, and either have it or set out. Don't worry nobody's going to quit and dive off the bridge over the mississippi. Your uncontrollable egos won't allow it. You will save money over the winter building a stable engine and won't be grenading them at some brusherized indoor pull, that a real pro would not go near the place. NO GRANDFATHERING CRAP. Be up to date or stay home before you get there.

One thing about Casting blocks today, there's no real need for patterns for such a small number of pours. All the patterns do is make the flask in sand in the core box..... and the inner core. With today's technology those sand molds are/can be made by 3D printing process. Not cheap, but far better than carving billet steel. All metal starts as a casting.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 12:30AM
With the number of Pulling tractors out there what % have a catastrophic failure in a season ? The modifieds even blow and have no side shields etc. I am surprised that there aren't even more failures with the cost of building these monsters and people stretching their dollar. As far as cube limit. Not sure about that. Maybe an rpm limit would accomplish more for less. Safety should always be first in everyone's mind. One injury or death is not worth a penny not put in safety on a quarter million dollar tractor or any pulling vehicle. My 2 cents.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 01:03AM
I was told when Martins blew up at Gordyville that the block had 250+ runs on it, good chance that Saatoffs block had a lot of runs on it too and i bet its not within 300hp of a Boyd BBJD motor, so it was probably not Hp that made it come apart....
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 01:33AM
Tractor pulling and limitations do not belong in the same sentence! Tractor pulling is about raw horsepower and a lot of it. Engines are costing more because we are pushing the technology envelope and parts are completely custom made which makes the engine stronger and safer. Imposing limitations just because I can't afford it or I can't have it sounds like Bernie Sanders pulling league! If you can't afford it don't pull.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 02:31AM
If the class your in is to expensive for you to compete. There's always the option of going to a different class that you would be competitive in.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 02:51AM
The truth is that every class has limitations. I don't care where you pull or in what class you pull in there are limitations. The NTPA Light Unlimited class, and their Unlimited class as does the PPL Unlimited Super Stock class has plenty of rules. Weight, number of engines, fuel, tire size, on and on. Tractor pulling would last about 3 weeks if there was not limitations. The name "unlimited" is catchy, just not valid.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 03:20AM
We'll said dick. I was and still am on board with jakes stance many years ago about the cubic inches being to high. Some may agree and some may disagree and I can respect any ones opinion
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 03:44AM
If the ford block is so weak why not start with an 8.3 Cummins? It was in a new Holland, so it would still be loyal to the brand, plus its already 505 cubic inches!!
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 03:45AM
Unless you are in Division I classes where they check RPM's and possibly put the winning tractor on the dyno, there is no such thing as a cheap class. There are very few super stocks left that are still running stock blocks with two or three chargers. Naturally aspirated modifieds with the exception of economy modified classes are a thing of the past. Even the lighter weight classes which were suppose to be more economical are areas where money is being spent looking at weighs to diet the tractors to get optimum horsepower and movable weight. Creating limited classes to allow for pullers to be competitive still is not making it more economical. Instead of putting a six inch turbo on a JD 466 block bored to the limits they will see how they can get as much horsepower out of a 4.1 turbo. So if one wants an economical pulling vehicle that is not Division I one must ask oneself why they are pulling: to have fun or to win?
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 05:19AM
Yes cubic inch limits are way to big in every class. Limited pro and Pro stocks should be at 540ci. Superfarms and light prostocks at 466. I think everyone would be amazed at how fast class numbers would grow if it was more affordable and dependable. I for one would decube for the better of the sport. The next issue is injector pumps. There is something wrong when injector pumps cost 10-15 grand. I also believe box stock turbos is the way to go. Differnt box stock turbo per class. I know a lot of guys will argue with me but wouldn't it make more sense if everyone was only spending 2000 on a turbo instead of 5000. The fans in the stands would not even know the differnce in power levels being the sleds are set lighter and everyone is still with in inches of each other.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 08:14AM
☝☝☝☝☝☝☝ smartest thing I've read on here in years ❗️
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 12:29PM
Yes it is time!! Start with turbos first and go with a box stock. Then injector pumps next like maybe a 13mm plunger rule and p3000 or 7100 housing only no off the wall recasted stuff. It would be nice to see a fuel rule like the outlaws run. Chemically made fuel is getting expensive to pass certain test. Who cares if we all lose 25 or 50hp. We would all be at same power level and a lot of money ahead.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 08:59AM
Gm has brought out crate engines that sealed from the factory. And when they get rebuilt the are resealed be the machine shop that does the rebuild. The machine shop has to mark what part numbers are used in the rebuild and keep record. I think spec motors do keep class in check as long as the rules are followed and the rules are wrote so there are not gray areas. Box turbos could be sealed so could the engines. You just need some really good tech officials. The other thing I was thinking today what happens if ag chassis break in half and pinch the drive between the cage and steering wheel. Short tracks around the country are prepared to cut cages apart if they have too. The other thing most drivers belts are not tight. And does ntpa or ppl mandate drivers suits by ratings for fire? There are different levels of fire suits and they are done by fire ratings. I think safety in pulling needs to be better addressed.It has some good measure in some areas and other areas lacks. Safety should be first!
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 25, 2016 02:32PM
Found the video of the deere but can't find the ih video. Any idea where it can be found. Would like to see it for myself.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 28, 2016 08:42AM
Wonder how much extra stress a block takes with a roller cam that has 400# seat pressure and 900-1000 open pressure times 12 valves plus trying to open exhaust valve under pressure maybe an overhead cam makes sense on a diesel.
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Re: Carnage at Keystone March 29, 2016 04:41AM
Quote
PaDeerePuller
Wonder how much extra stress a block takes with a roller cam that has 400# seat pressure and 900-1000 open pressure times 12 valves plus trying to open exhaust valve under pressure maybe an overhead cam makes sense on a diesel.

As mentioned earlier, the block breakage comes from a cylinder filling with fluid and "Hydraulic forces" This usually starts as a valve train failure. I would have to assume that the valve train alone would be incapable of breaking the block.
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