Re: Boost and Fatigue

Boost and Fatigue July 04, 2016 12:37AM

Anonymous User

Is it time to update another safety item?

the cable rule started around 1986 I think at that time we had one around the block and head the front in between 1 and 2 cylinders and one between 5 and 6 not long after we no longer had to run the back one. that was to basically direct the explosion so the mass of parts in theory should flip forward away from the driver.

during the 80's boost was about 200 psi for the few and most was less.

it has been 30 years boost is now getting close to 300 for a few, blocks have been getting tied together to hold them together or a heavier block is being used.

like most explosives the tighter it is wrapped the bigger the explosion.

I dont believe that PPL, NTPA or other ruling body's will limit boost with a sealed large waste gate plus it helps only in some cases.

maybe add a second cable in the same location as the first. plus additional fire wall thickness.

Just a though to be safer at a minimal cost.

!cid__19260-MMS-1467632079429-attachment1-VZM.jpg

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 04, 2016 03:27AM

IH1086

Registered: 07/06/2010
Posts: 147

I under stand the idea of the single cable in the front, but when the hood comes off it lifts in the rear first directing
the blast to the driver. Is a second cable between 3-4, or 4-5 , closer to center
A reasonable idea to contain blast under the hood?? Still has more holding toward the front.
It hopefully would catch head before it flipped off, with far less destruction
to the sheet metal, if sheet metal stays in place your firewall can do it's
job.

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 04, 2016 06:31AM

Time for a change

My question is was there even a cable on Kents tractor? Where was all the extra metal shields sense it was a fiber glass good. I believe the sport would grow bigger with turbo limits or boost limits. People watching can't tell if a tractor has 180lbs or 300lbs boost if they are all on the level of boost. But that will prolly never change so I guess every time you see this happen it's a 100k gone.

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 04, 2016 08:19AM

Anonymous User

I was not there for Kent's and not sure of shielding.

I do believe that thicker or additional layers should be added for all's safety.

I was there for Danny Thomas's and yes the head did attempt to flip forward and it did remove the whole steering column and not sure the best way to correct this.
as the head flips forward it will direct the blast and some pieces rearward and that is why I believe there should be additional layers there.
I can tell you that the cable sheared right at the cable clamps. there is a lot of rapid impact force and to contain that under the hood would be very hard to do.
Danny's was 12 years ago and we have come a long ways in HP and pressure since then.

turbo limits would help all the way around but you are going to get people that say why do you want to hold back progress. I guess I would say injury's and Lives.

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 05, 2016 10:42AM

Clamps

Cable clamps on backwards.
Please educate.
As far as I know the cable brakes at a clamp point is because that is were the cable is compressed and now cause a shear point. But please let us know on the backwards.

I do not believe anybody is saying the clamps or the cables are there to be shock absorbers. As far as the clamps and cables they are to prevent injuries to the best of their intent just like the cross bolts that go through the stacks.

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 05, 2016 01:40AM

Sully

Registered: 04/06/2008
Posts: 974

I certainly don't disagree with the boost limits being discussed but, pro stocks explode like this and even light pro stocks have. granted they don't lift the top end as high as kent's did. Geared green laid the top end out of his last year and I thought the Allis challenger light pro lifted the hood really hard last year. I for sure don't have the answer to the problem but as a well known pro stock puller and I were talking we were discussing blocks coming apart and how these cables and not holding. is a lot bigger cable going to be the answer? It is not cool when these guys have this kind of damage and it for sure would be cool if that top end of kent"s went inside the cage.... OK everybody else put your thoughts out there

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 05, 2016 03:14AM

AV

Registered: 03/26/2008
Posts: 744

Boost is just relative though, and not an accurate measurement of flow and cylinder pressure. 220 lbs today with the latest and greatest heads are producing a lot of cylinder pressure compared to the heads of old with 220 lbs of boost.

Today's setups with 240-250 lbs of boost make some mean machines. And if you want to win a GN hook I am sure some have to be flirting around the 300 mark.

Our setup today has no wastegate. But the turbos and head we run only allow for 200-220 lbs of boost max depending on track. And even here a block could let go.

On some of these major failures, did something in the valve train let go causing a cylinder to lock and lift the head? After the carnage is looked through could one even tell if that happened or not? In this scenario there is no stopping what happens after the valve train failure. Containment is the best outcome in this situation.

I think along with the cable rule, all of these heads need to be tied to the girdle somehow.

COO for OTTPA

www.outlawpulling.com

www.truck-specialties.com

Schaeffer Oil Representative

[www.schaefferoil.com]

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 05, 2016 07:24AM

boomers

Those big bangs are due to hydraulicing a cylinder or more. Top Fuel engines will do the same thing when they have a valvetrain failure on the exhaust side. Any multi cylinder engine can lift the top end off or break a block. What's interesting, is..... tractor pullers just keep pushing them more and more. It's really no big mystery as to why this is happening. What the mystery is....is, why no one has the .............to do something about it.If pullers can throw away 100 grand like that, they should get educated as to why it's happening and take measures to avoid it and to contain it when it does happen. Times long past where a blanket needs to be in place.

As far as a cable breaking at the clamp??........stop putting the clamps on backwards. Cables are not intended to absorb shock.

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 05, 2016 12:29PM

Kevin H

Maybe an "r" shaped 3 piece tubing bar similar to a rollcage that could mount behind the engine. This might deflect the head or top 1/2 of the block towards the front of the tractor.
Similar to the end of a tire inflation cage.

I don't know how to attach a photo, so here is my vintage dot matrix drawing Smiling

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxxx xx
xxxxxxx xx
xxxxxx xx HEAD Hot

xxxxx xx
xxxx xx ENGINE Hot

xx xx

Or possibly a oversized automatic transmission safety blanket mounted upside down or a blower restrain bag Thumbs Up

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 06, 2016 12:22AM

Jake Morgan

Admin
Registered: 03/25/2008
Posts: 2,526

Mark,

Thanks for starting this discussion. I know there are probably some that will say 'this is why we need billet blocks', but, honestly cast blocks aren't going anywhere any time soon so we need to address this with a little more seriousness. While I do think it's important to do failure analysis to figure out why it's happening, I think it's more important to figure out a better containment method/process. Maybe a second cable with a little more slack than the first is needed. Maybe a cable between 2 and 3. Maybe a tie down system should be explored. One factor that's compounding this problem is track speed. Back in the day of heavy slow sleds pullers didn't have the ground speed to outrun a launched block, now days if this happens mid track I could envision a block going out the front and the tractor "catching up with the block" as the chassis coasts to a stop.

Kevin, The "r" shaped cage is an interesting idea, the only thought I had was the upward force of the engine is so great because of it's mass that the "r" cage would have the tendency to flex/fail backwards and into the drivers area. I don't want to imply the "r" idea is a bad idea, I think it should be explored, just sharing my initial concern.

Thank for the great discussion.

Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News

This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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	allow billet blocks July 06, 2016 02:22PM
please	why not let guys who want billet blocks run them. Reply Quote

Re: Boost and Fatigue July 06, 2016 02:38PM

Anonymous User

Thanks Jake for keeping the site up after all these years

I feel that there has been allot of safety rules that have been ignored and others need to be updated.

The rules books need to be cleaned up some.
I don't remember how high should the stacks be on the tractors?
fire suits
safety blankets
I have seen some pretty scary stuff as I am sure you have to.
I have seen wheelie bars that look good but you can kick them sideways with your foot.
to much to really list should be a different topic

Right now people should really take a look at this block launch issue ASAP

My hood is a stock steel hood and this damage is caused by 1 rouge spark plug that made it around my turbo plumbing and struck it 3 times

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Re: Boost and Fatigue July 06, 2016 02:50PM

Kevin H

Quote
Jake Morgan
Mark,

Thanks for starting this discussion. I know there are probably some that will say 'this is why we need billet blocks', but, honestly cast blocks aren't going anywhere any time soon so we need to address this with a little more seriousness. While I do think it's important to do failure analysis to figure out why it's happening, I think it's more important to figure out a better containment method/process. Maybe a second cable with a little more slack than the first is needed. Maybe a cable between 2 and 3. Maybe a tie down system should be explored. One factor that's compounding this problem is track speed. Back in the day of heavy slow sleds pullers didn't have the ground speed to outrun a launched block, now days if this happens mid track I could envision a block going out the front and the tractor "catching up with the block" as the chassis coasts to a stop.

Kevin, The "r" shaped cage is an interesting idea, the only thought I had was the upward force of the engine is so great because of it's mass that the "r" cage would have the tendency to flex/fail backwards and into the drivers area. I don't want to imply the "r" idea is a bad idea, I think it should be explored, just sharing my initial concern.

Thank for the great discussion.

Very good point Jake. Just trying to think of something to help deflect a cylinder head or block from the driver. Maybe something shaped like a sub soiler shank upside down and welded really good:-)
I'm sure this post will be good to get some brilliant minds thinking and make the tractors safer as the pressure increases.
Thanks to Mark for posting it at the top.

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	Re: Boost and Fatigue July 06, 2016 03:02PM
Kevin H	bulldozer cab parts Reply Quote

	Re: Boost and Fatigue July 06, 2016 03:07PM
Kevin H	Quote Kevin H bulldozer cab parts When a tractor shows up with one of these mounted in front of the steering wheel - LOOK OUT! You know they've got wick turned up Reply Quote