02:49:54pm, Thursday, May 02, 2024
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Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
With the pulling season winding down and champions being crowned in both the NTPA and PPL it is becoming apparent that changes need to be made in the Super Stock classes.
Lets start with the LSS class. This is a road that I have traveled down before. However I believe that there still is a need to address the issues that are holding pulling back. I know that there is a “Lets Grow Pulling” movement and while I applaud their efforts I am starting to wonder if there needs to be a “Lets Save Pulling” in some of the classes ? What should be a robust class with great numbers has become a 6 tractor class, with the 3 tractor team dominating most of the pulls. One of the problems with the class is while there are a lot of LSS in the country ,only a handful are willing to make a commitment to a national circuit. Willing to pull with a built in handicap. The PPL LSS class is on life support and while the NTPA class has good numbers and great vehicles there still is a problem. On the pulloff.com “for sale “ page there are 2 blue pullers that are selling their engines. I can only speculate, however after talking with a couple of competitors that the message I am getting is they just can't compete with the unfair advantage that the red tractors have in the class. I don't understand why the red tractors are allowed to run a motor that is substantially stronger than what the other brands are allowed to run. I understand that the red motor has a “ OEM part number” engine that is considered legal, however that is what is killing the class. Do we really want to see every LSS running blue-green- yellow sheet metal and all running the same engine. If that is the road the class and the sport are headed for then the class will be nothing more than the PPL PS or NTPA DSS classes. Basically a class of one dominating color. Is there a solution? Yes there is, billet blocks. Now I know that everyone [well almost everyone] is against the idea. Their stand is that cost is already killing the sport. I don't agree, running a billet block will save money in the long run. When a factory block comes apart the damage is catastrophic. The collateral damage can amount to total destruction of all of the parts under the hood. A huge investment trashed. The billet block seems like a more sensible rule than any other route the class can pursue. While I hear the cost argument I believe that two things will happen if the billet block is allowed. Like any item that goes into production, the more widgets you make, the cheaper they become. And like any widget that is made, the more people that make them, the cheaper they will become. The class needs TLC, lets start with billet blocks. The next article I would like to take a look at possible combining a couple of the Super Stock classes. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Team one
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Other than the blue motors, which have had strength issues? I know Blue blazes has destroyed a few , but who else has had continuing issues? There are other engines out there working just fine, the biggest issue I see with billet is that the ones that push hard will just push harder and the ones not willing to invest will be left in the dust, so the big team/ teams will just improve and because of a certain engine builders talent and ability they will just run that much harder! |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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JMHO
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All a blue tractor is now is blue sheetmetal. The diehard blue undies is nonsense. Those tractors are gone and it's time to paint a durable block blue and get it over with. That's really all it is now if you look at it realistically.
Billet blocks have never been the answer to any motorsport. The billet may sound like the answer, but anything carved out of billet is unstable and in the long run you'll be crying for a cast or forged block. You want to fix what's wrong with pulling???????????? Well,,,,,, designate a block, and make enough of them to make them affordable, and available to anyone, then paint them any color you want. It will be just like a rockwell rearend painted blue and the fans will love em. . No motorsport can survive by allowing one off exotic engines for every color in the rainbow. If billet is allowed it will be only available to a few people as the price will be out of sight. The whole idea of billet is nuts and those that want them will be the only ones who get them. To think they will be available to enough people to save a class is not going to happen. Come up with a bore spacing and a deck height and get some blocks manufactured and get on with life. This argument has gone on long enough. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 97 |
Sorry sir, but not all fans will love a generic block. IMHO. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Is the IH engine that much of advantage . I have one sitting in the shop.
What I see with Blackborn/Chizek have a huge amount knowledge and experience. Terry Blackbourn was a strong competitor 20 years ago. Add a nice shop full of CNC and a lot of great equipment and the financial resources to keep it all going. When you work at it 24/7 that's pretty hard to beat. Just my opinion. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Posts: 744 |
Add in their own tire guy and ability to experiment with ideas in that department. Add billet block rule and the same team will still be at the top. But it may add reliability for others. COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2016 01:42PM by AV. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Robert, do you have a IH block or a Hyper block in your shop? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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IH Dick. I wasn't aware Blackbourns were / are running the Hyper Block. Any pics I seen look like stock blocks. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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related
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On a related note, is it true some of the Pro Stock guys aren't happy with the billet blocks? I've been told there's been some breakage problems with them because they don't flex and are too stiff, particularly crankshafts breaking. I know we're still early in the life of billet blocks but at this point have they just shifted breakage to somewhere other than the block, or are they really going to solve some of the reliability problems of cast blocks? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Larry V
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Do really think the billet will help that much. The cost to run a super stock is already getting to high, seems like this will just add to more cost. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/12/2008 Posts: 398 |
Probably thinking about this all wrong, but for the sake of argument- How is an aftermarket recasted or billit block any more authentic to say a ford tractor than using an IH block? If the IH block is durable enough to meet the demands of the LSS class, and can be purchased anywhere for $400, wouldn't that be the block to choose? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that everyone with longevity concerns needs to switch to an IH block as the deere and cummins blocks may hold up just as well at 505 cubes, but if I was unable to make the season with my current block, and tired of picking up the pieces after catastrophic failure, I think I would leave my engine program alone for as long as I could. Once my cylinder head was ready to be retired I would look to move towards a different platform. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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LSS Puler
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I am with Neil, how is a billet block in a Ford any more authentic than an IH block in it? Billet blocks will only put the guys that are out front, further out front and probably drastically.
There is nothing wrong with the current rules. Both Hootman and Rex have shown that they can run with the IHs. And i dont forsee Chizek being around much longer, so yall dont worry about that. But this discussion and pointing out that the 2 blue motors are for sale brings up a good question, who would buy them? When you ask the seller why he is selling and his response is, "I cant keep it from scattering, so i am going to build an IH"..... Nothing agains barbee or wilhite, just a curiosity. (I am also against billet blocks because I could never justify buying one, and we are almost priced out of the LSS as it is! ha LLSS here we come!) |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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LSS Puller
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Oh, and Hyper blocks should have never been allowed. The biggest load of bulls%it in pulling history. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Team one
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You don't foresee Chizek being around much longer?? He just built a 5th tractor! Doesn't seem to be slowing down unless you know something I don't , although I hear rumors of the SSO tractors being done ... |
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billet
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
This subject is getting very old. No billet blocks Schramek proves you can keep anything together. No lss on alcohol will ever put to a block as he has with a weak 426 block. This comes down to a money issue. Has any Ford guy tried to tie their block together? Nope certain people are looking at financial gain on this. 5 years ago when Ford's were dominate not a word was mentioned now their not and it's a pandemic. Here's an idea Bob Barbie build a billet block put it in and run exhibition for a year. When you prove that it took less work and money and your in front week in and week out because of the billet Block you will get my vote. But I am not real concerned because it's a lot more than the block beating you. |
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Re: billet
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
Smuggler why don't you make more than your annual 2 hooks a year and then come talk to me about what you think! Do you have a NTPA Liscense or do you Per Hook that Beast? As for what you are concerned about my rig yeah I detonated, but lets compare tire speed on our two rigs, I can read the words on your tires while you head for that 250 mark.
BB |
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Get a Cummins!
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OP
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They came in a New Holland. I recommend the ISL block for the roller lifters, a tad over 1.25 in diameter. Lot more meat to it than the Genesis block. |
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Re: billet
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
This rule is for a very few. Bob you want to attack me that's fine hang on big boy. First let's look at the results over when we competed against ea other. I have Ben on the winning side of that by a large margin. Does it matter how fast my tires go around ? Pulling is measured in distance not wheel speed. You may not be the worst puller in history of hooking a tractor to the track but I'm guessing you would be in the top 2. Hook your tractor one time would be a sight to see. I don't need air bags because I don't flag my tractor unlike you. If you think a billet block is going to put you in the winners circle your delusional. Now on to Mr Rebook sigh your name to your post you spineless coward. O and Bob this Twinkies for you buddy! Eric (585)721-6873 feel free to call anytime. |
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Re: billet
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OP
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video: [m.youtube.com] |
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Re: billet
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Fans point
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Smuggler you've hit the nail on the and head you should of added blazes and stormy goes kablooy more times than they pull |
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Re: billet
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Rehook
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Struggled, I saw you at BG and in both sessions you stopped before the 100' but you didn't come back. I thought you had 2 attempts? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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No dog in this fight
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So as my name has stated I have no dog in this fight but my question to you Dick or Bob or anybody else wanting billet blocks is this....Where does it stop? It didn't stop when the class put aluminum heads on. It didn't stop when it when to component chassis. How about giant turbos? Exotic ignitions?
My point is that it is getting way to far out of hand. Billet blocks would just be the next step in the process. They might as well just allow overhead cams and change the name to Light Open Super Stock. I know that pulling is not a poor mans sport and you can bang the progression of the sport drum. But the sport is rapidly getting to the point where there will not be any competitors out there except the ultra wealthy teams. (just look at NHRA) I am not sure at how to do it but I think it has gotten to the point where some sort of limitation might be an option to keep the class alive. As far as what to limit? I am not in that class and the best ideas would come from within. Turbo sizes, fuel pump size, boost limits, smaller motors. I don't know. And this is not the only class that is currently suffering this issue. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
LSS Puller you are exactly right we are scratching our heads thinking who will buy them, since all you guys voted against the block issue we basically have to start over and spend close to $100K in building a new engine and a program around all that, instead of spending just $20K for a block and using all the existing stuff we had refined already! You say your about priced out of the class already, but you dang sure want to keep guys who were still going from getting what they need to stay competitive, thanks a lot great sportsmanship! Well you'll have 2 Basterdized Fords running like hell soon to deal with, as for me I'll be in the stands watching and laughing!
BB |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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LSS Puler
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Bob,
I understand your points. I guess it just comes down to where do you draw the line (EFI, OHC, or do you finally just put a hemi in it). And wasnt trying to knock yours or Wilhite's engines, would love to have either, was just a serious question. I think dropping the weight of the class to 6000 or 5800 would solve a lot of issues. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
Allow billet blocks, knock the cubic inch limit back to 410 or less, no decubing. Get it back to the small engines that it was originally for. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Is there actually billet blocks being used? Hyper's is a recast block and Jerry's had his own blocks out for a lot longer than people care to admit, there's a bunch of the stock style ones he had done several years ago that are being run in super farm,LP and whatever else now a days |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Moderator |
Diesel truck guys have been running billet blocks for quite a while and and there is at least one tractor that I know of. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I know no one agrees with me but shoulda been a small block,small cu.in class from the beginning |
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Boils down to choice
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OP
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Dick,
You're wrong! Plain and simple. Everyone has a choice when they start their motor program and should know the strengths and weaknesses of that program. You don't hear the Hercules, 426, Cummins guys complaining. So they made a choice in their motor program. Since their motor isn't as strong we're supposed to tweak the rules for their choices? NOPE! Live with your choice. You have the right to compete with the choice you made. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Grub
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Something needs to change in the LSS. Only 5 tractors made every pull in Lucas with 3 being from the same stable. NTPA is only running the Grand National class at 4 pulls. It's dying fast and that really sucks for a blue fan. Obviously this is a money dominated sport and the guys who spend the most tend to do the best, but if something can level the playing field it should looked at. I can't fault Chizek for how he runs his team(s), if I had the money, I would probably do the same. But they aren't just winning, they are putting 30-40 feet on everyone. Having boatloads of money and your own test track will do that, but it's obviously hurting both classes in terms of entries/pulls. With classes like limited pro and lite pro picking up steam, it is starting to look bad for the supers. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
OP, Thank you for your response. I do agree that pullers make their choices and the engine that they started out with was more than adequate at the time to handle the HP that the LSS where making 10 years ago. However times change, HP has grown to a point that this is not only a reliability issue but also a safety concern. You will have to admit the block that they used in their programs when they first started was able to handle the HP, however the class in particular and the sport overall have far exceeded what the blue, orange block can handle.
So what is your solution to the LSS problem, let them keep trashing their engines, everyone run a IH engine, let the class die, what will save the class? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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choice
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OP
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Dick,
Isn't a light super out there that is as hard on a weak block as Shrameks have been on the 426. I will always come down on the side of, you made your choice. If the concern is the Hyper block, outlaw them in the light super. You see there is no answer, at the end of the day your pocket book is your determining factor. The Ford block was proven unreliable YEARS ago by Haferds. The Ford block being weak is nothing new to the sport of pulling. Since its re-birth on the national scene 10-12 years ago it's been a red or blue show. Pretty sure Karlen's run a DT Blackbourn motor. They to had a choice in motor programs. Just sayin... |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
What will save the class is less weight. Though you may not want to see that, but that is what WILL save the class. Now if someone can't make the weight say at 6000 lbs., then there is still a heavier class that they can pull in that needs more numbers. I think it's called ULSS. |
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^TRUTH^
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OP
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Less weight levels the playing field. The high HP tractors won't be able to get it all to the ground. 6000 it goes back to being a drivers class and gives diesels a better chance. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Disaster Pulling
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5800 pounds with cast iron heads only and the problem would be fixed. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Simple
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Put more limits on them drop cubes to 440 and a max of 3.6 smooth bore for top charges for easy checking. It would give others in the class a chance with other brands and also might put some Diesels back in the class. This also becomes a apart of the Top Guns responsibility also if they want the class to live or die. When they roll there eyes and shake there head no we will not down size then they have put the final nail in it. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Fans point
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The big point here Dick is 10 years ago this class was a lot better class from a fans point of few because there were more tractors.Now every one agrees the big money has killed the class even you agree because as much as you love pulling your like myself you would own one now. since the money has been the killer it sounds stupid to suggest something that would cost another 20 thousand this class needs numbers limits will get numbers put some limits on this class and give the ulss the billet block And besides that I believe Blackborn could keep the Southern Fords together |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 01/12/2016 Posts: 55 |
I'd chime in with agreeing unless there's a way to level the playing field so more can be truly competitive and that gets more colors back in the mix while getting the dollars reasonable then start counting the days down until the SS classes are gone. I'm a die hard IH guy but seeing the same 3 not just win but pummel the next closest tractor has run its course. I can sympathize with those who really do want to compete and try their damdest but one big KAABOOM means not just the end of the season for most it means out for 2 seasons and maybe done for good. I agree billet blocks will only allow the ones way out there to get even further away.
And things like what's happened in other classes, where its just tin over a BBJD engines makes me cringe too. Everyone saying "IF you want to run with the Big Dogs you need to step it up" also need to understand everyone's resources are different and so much so if Mr Fat Wallet can dominate so fully that the competitors go elsewhere or quit then what are you going to do? Think about it like playing catch, if you toss the ball and there's no one to toss it back, how much fun is that and how long will it last?" Just my 2 cents.... red712 |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Madpullingpics
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Really all MR Morgan's post is about is leveling the playing field so everyone can get the same amount of HP and boost Out of the blocks. Me Being a diehard blue fan I would hate to see a IH motor in a blue tractor. In my opinion, I think a billet block would mean a resurgence in the LSS class where any tractor could win anytime. Hats off to Marcus, Jason, Kyle and Rex in BG for making it one hell of a class to watch! |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 343 |
Anyone that would like to call in to my radio show next Thursday let me know and we will do a round table like show on this subject, call 502-321-9733 or email at ericprewittthegodfather@gmail.com Eric Prewitt The Prewitt Pulling Team Public Relations for The Pulling Radio Network |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Opinions
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If billet blocks are a necessity. Leave it at the national level. And if they are allowed at state and regional level, billet block tractors must run at 5900-6000lbs. Just like an ag rear end tractor can weigh 6500. And components are 6200. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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I got a great idea the lss class is suppose to be a driver's class so why not make it light again then the high hp tractors won't dominate cause they won't be able to get all the power to the ground the light class was always know for there wild rides and the good drivers now it's all about hp not very many tractors will get out of hand with 1000 on the nose when it weighs 6500 |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
Take it back to 5500 or 5800 pounds. I would like to see 505 cubic inch with exception of allowing 510 Perkins and no I'm not a MF fan. Just trying to keep more brands not just more colors. Maybe the V8 can't get that light. Hyper block should not be allowed. If they are going to allow it, maybe only allow 466 ci to IH? Just some ideas but willing to hear all holes being blown in my ideas. Maybe even go back to 24.5 tires in that class. Then too much hp maybe would just boil the tires. |
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Dick, talk to light super pullers!
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OP
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The vast majority want to see the weight knocked back to 6000 and some will even say 5800. At that weight it is a more level playing field as the "big dogs" can get all their power to the ground. The local guys don't support the national because they are out of the game before they even hook. You go back to 6000 you'll get more to show up. |
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Re: Dick, talk to light super pullers!
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hmmm
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Billet this and billet that. Don't you think it's getting a bit ridiculous. Why not just redesign the whole tractor and run a computer based unit. Yea a drone tractor. Pulling is going over the edge. I'm not impressed with what money can buy anymore. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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The Ghost!
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Maybe they should think about bringing back overhead cam to the light super stock class. It does not cost much more, its easier to keep together, and more and likely will make more horsepower, make the competition more even. Over head cams were the future back in the early 2000 when "The Squealer" was running it, and the pullers back then did not want to jump with the future technology. Maybe now the organizations should think about letting over head cams back in, like they allow all the V8 engine to pull in Heavy Supers Stock class, harder for the 6-C engine to compete at times. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 01/15/2009 Posts: 6 |
I was waiting for this comment. Your are right Ghost! |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
The poster that was against billet blocks because they will drive up the cost of an already expensive class, yet if we where to have billet block we should go with a standard generic block. I have a couple questions; who decides on the dimensions that will be used? What block will we use, red, green blue, orange? If we go with only one OEM dimension block then everyone that does not fit into those parameters has to buy all new parts to be able to use the new block. This is not cost effective.
I really don't believe it will be anymore expensive to let every puller run the OEM dimensions that their parts already fit. The billet blocks will all be made on a CNC machine that can very easily be programmed for the appropriate OEM dimensions. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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better idea then billet
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Why doesn't Super Storm take the time and effort to have his own recast block made with serial numbers. Maybe see if they won't let him move the camshaft a little so 640 is achievable and not running onto camshaft lobes. Then he has a larger share of classes the block can be in, and he still gets his financial gain (potentially more). |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
Better,
We fully checked into recasting the blocks, myself Mike Wilhite and Jason Hootman collectively did so, we found the initial cost was $100,000+ and that didn't buy a block simply the patterns. The blocks were going to be somewhere between $15-20K ea, and no the Powers that be would not let us raise the camshaft to make it feasible for the big cube diesel classes. So we didn't see this as a feasible avenue for say less than 10 guys to buy blocks. BB |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I think I asked those same questions about component chassis years ago. But no one wanted to see my question. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2016 02:13PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 343 |
Will be talking all these issues out Thursday night at 7:00 PM eastern time at www.pullingradionetwork.com Eric Prewitt The Prewitt Pulling Team Public Relations for The Pulling Radio Network |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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lewis
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Here is one way to look at things. if it cost a 100 thousand to change a engine program as Stormy says then add the cost to build the rest of the tractor how do any of you ever expect to get new tractors in the class added another 20 thousand to the class and you guys need to hope billet steal scrap gets really high Fans are really tired of going to the 5or 6 tractor class shows or even the ones with 10 and a little llss tractor slips in and gets 4th or 5th because 3 or 4 went boom at the 100ft mark you all better be coming up with some limits to keep the cost down and keep things together to get new pullers or you all are done |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Nathan Binder
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I agree with Ghost. I am from Missouri. When the Squealer and Long Machine pulled in our Light Super Class with TPM it was awesome!!! The overhead cam is simple and easier to work on. Less moving parts. I would rather have the overhead cam than a billet block . I will never have a horse in this race because I will never be able to afford it. The Meese family are great people with a great tractor. The Brent Long family are great people also. I would love to have a Long Machine Tractor!!! |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Lewis, I agree. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Simple
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Limits are the only way to get more to take part! Billet will take the right people and big pockets that most will not do, they will take up gulf or what ever else they are doing now. And Where is the Thumbs up and Thumbs down button for some of these post? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Simple, you have to register in order to thumbs up or down. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
I disagree Limits is were the money goes wild ask any Superfarm guy! How much do they stay on the dyno and the top guys are spending big to stay ahead, open up the rules and let them build durable engines that can run a full season. Then it gets down to who is the best Puller. |
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Smuggler nailed it
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OP
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Lower the weight and put reasonable restrictions in. Easy solutions. Tell me what billet blocks have done for the DSS? Hasn't helped their numbers at all. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Bob, you can disagree and that's fine. But who said that any Superfarm puller HAD to be on the dyno to stay ahead? If a puller in ANY class knew what they were doing instead of just BUYING it, pulling in general would be a lot better off. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Twister07
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I 100% agree with every post in this thread talking about make in the weight 6000lbs .
That would do far more to "level" the playing field than billed blocks ever would. No need for 125+ lbs of boost if you were that light and couldn't control it. Inherently the weak block issue would be solved do to less boost. Cost goes down, participation goes up and it would once again be a drivers class. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
There is several limits that could be implied. How bout no mags msd 8 plus only, how bout a boost restrictions, How bout 5800 lbs. But what would I know with my out dated junk. Bottom line in makes some rules to better the whole class not 3 tractors. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Allow V type engines if billet gets allowed. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Anonymous User
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Tractors limited to 4 turbochargers: 3 pressure stages on
diesel and 2 pressure stages on alcohol. 360 cubic-inch displacement (cid) or less can run billet wheels. 360cid to 505cid alcohol engines with more than one-atmosphere turbo are limited to mass production OEM cast compressor wheels on the atmosphere turbo. (Billet compressor wheels are not allowed on top turbos of greater than 360cid 3 and 4-turbo alcohol engines) |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
A couple of things to get out of the way:
Patches is 100% right, this should never have been more than a 410 CID class. Unfortunately that ship has already sailed. Could it be changed... yes but it's almost an impossibility at this point. I also completely agree with Smuggler that this class should be no more than 6000 lbs. Lighter weight has always been a great equalizer and it also makes the class more exciting. As the margin for error with your setup gets tighter the chance for wild rides increase and the true underdogs still have a great chance (when setup trumps horsepower a small budget team can still out-think a team that has huge resources). This is one area I think we could see change if enough pullers could see the logic in it. When it comes to overhead cams... I'm pretty neutral on this. I don't think they would help the class, but I'm not sure they would really hurt it any either... Let me clarify, I think it might hurt it in the short-term, but I don't think it would have any major impact long-term. Again, if the weight were lowered setup and driving technique would trump horsepower and where you put the cam wouldn't make any difference. I guess I'd say that if it doesn't grow the class then why bother, but I'd love to see a place for stock headed overhead cam tractors. I guess I'm still on the fence and don't really care one way or the other. As far as the V-8's are concerned... Since we are probably stuck with 505 CID as the limit, let the Perkins in, let the 3150/3208 Cat in and let the junky DT550 in (all decubed to 505 of course). At least the first two would give you some real variety and the third one is just a boat anchor. If it came in a Twd type tractor it should be legal. Any block and sheet-metal... I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, it's a garbage rule. Possibly one of the worst rules that this motor-sport has ever made. This is a sport that has been based on brand loyalty from the beginning, throwing that in the trash was a huge mistake. Without brand loyalty what do we have? Star drivers? Good luck with that! The sheet-metal rule is only in existence because of one of the other “Worst Rules in Pulling History”... the aftermarket Hypermax replacement block. Lets just favor one color because they were able to get a part number! All they needed to do was throw out the “OEM replacement” part of the (at the time) current rules and we would have been fine, ALL the other blocks were OEM in one form or another! Again, these ships have sailed and the sport is much worse off because of it. Billet Blocks... I don't think we need them. I actually think they might just be the thing that would kill the class completely. I think they will be the straw the breaks the camels back. The class is already way, way, way past what it should have been from the start (CID wise, HP wise, weight wise, etc... See comments above). Going even further isn't the solution. Has taking away gun rights curbed gun violence in Chicago? No. If going further with an already failed agenda worked we wouldn't have a growing welfare class. Going further with a class that's well past what it should be won't help the class, but rather KILL it! Here's my quick Super Stock case study: Open/Unlimited Super... a class that was getting further and further past the threshold. They decided to go even further and allow any Ag block... the 903 Cummins was decubed and developed... the numbers haven't gotten any better. The gap between the top tier and the second tier has widened, the top tier has shrunk and the class isn't any better. All it's really done is put a bigger disparity between the top runners. If it wasn't for Earl Wells budget and the great work of GMS the inline 6's would look silly. The Diesel Super also seems to have a pretty big separation between the top tier and the second tier. What's the consistent theme for the top tier diesel tractors? Hypermax blocks. They argued that they needed the block for reliability and that it didn't make more power (The LSS guys are even using some of the same arguments). Well sure the block is a stationary object and it doesn't make any more power but it has the capability to hold more power without coming apart as easily. Which allowed the Red pullers the ability to make more power and to push harder and harder. Again, the separation from the top tier to the rest of the class has gotten worse in the DSS and the numbers are down. The only outlier in the DSS is Brian Shramek. He's consistently proven that engineering can make a garbage block pretty reliable. His catastrophic engine failure in BG should not be a surprise to anyone, it's the fate that await ALL in that class at some point (yes, even the Hyper blocks, it's just the nature of the class). The fact that it took this long is proof that OEM blocks can take a serious beating if prepared correctly. So, would someone please explain to me how following the same road map that the other two Super Stock classes used is going to help the Light Super class arrive in a different destination? Lower the weight and keep the rest the same for now and see what that does. If the question is how to deal with low numbers and separation between the top tier and second tier tractors... Billet blocks are not the answer to that question, especially in the LSS class. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Nathan Binder
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Jake I am you have this forum. Your facts are off a little in the unlimited super class. Long Machine 6 cylinders are the best runners!!!! |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Smoke fan
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If you take away billet or Hyper blocks and lowwered the weight you will eliminate the top running diesels in the class. Heard some of the good running smokers are pushing over 300 lbs of boost and running on kill almost every run. And they still can not get in the top 5. Rule changes should try to get some more smoke in the class. There are a lot of people that love to see smoke vs alcohol. I don't have an answer to making low budget booze burners compete with unlimited budget teams. But don't eliminate smoke from the class! With 4 turbos, hyper block, cast or billet steel head, heavy rods, radiator and coolant it's very hard for a diesel to make 6200. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I agree, I'd love to see more smoke in the class. I love the rivalry, and I'd actually be fine letting the Diesels weigh a little more than the alcohol tractors to keep them competitive and to encourage guys to build them. One of the most exciting years for the LSS was when Red Line Fever Lite made the alcohol guys squirm.
As an aside: diesels don't need 4-turbos (Triple Bypass, Bone Twister), and they don't need a Hyper block (Youngblood, Legacy) to be at the top of their game. They also don't need coolant... Maybe if you got some more smoke in the class it would have a purse higher than $10 as well (since the DSS purse is almost 3-times as much as the LSS purse). Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Jake, please come to an ISP pull next summer. No they are not a NATIONAL organization. But have rules to help the diesels in the light ss class. A diesel won the points this year. It runs hard and the man that owns it and drives it has worked VERY hard. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/01/2009 Posts: 133 |
If you keep the alcohols at 410 and let the diesels run 505 it's a very very competitive class. Alki's weight 6000 Diesels Weight 6100. On any given night it could be any of the two. It takes the horse power out of the equation and puts it back into the driver seat. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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lewis
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Jake no offence but from the looks from you first post and the last looks like the class really needs help but as tractor lovers standpoints which is people who loves the IH JD MF or whatever the LOG SCIDDER CRAP TAKES IT ALL .IH had enough assets if they would have wanted skidder rear ends they could have had them with 3 point hitches and a pto put a 747 Boing in them running on thrust and then save money on the puller 2000s that should cut costs no gears junk track good track it wouldn't matter |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 480 |
If there were still diesels in the national level LSS class, these points would matter. Seeing how there hasn't been one in several years; let's worry about getting the class some more numbers before we worry about tractors that aren't getting built in the first place. If they make a comeback then we can worry about that. Now on to the real issue. LSS is a class that used to be one of my favorites but anymore it's just a class to me. Here's the deal, the National Rules were 6000 when the class came back (when the class had good numbers). Then something in the SFI spec raised the weight to 6200 so the cast tractors could still compete(the numbers where still good and there were still cast tractors around). Now the cast tractors are gone and we still weigh 6200 and have a thousand plus pounds of weight on the tractors(lets face it a class of 10 is a big class now with 3 belonging to the dominant team). Why when the cast rearends went away wasn't the weight adjusted back to 6000 or 5800? It would make sense to make the weight change and see what happens. I think things would level back out and the class would become exciting again. Just my two cents on the topic. Keith Ford Photography [www.facebook.com] keithfordphotography.zenfolio.com Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2016 04:51PM by Fuelish Fan. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
6000 lbs , and no mags. Would change a lot of things. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
No mags is stupid. If a guy can justify a rock solid trouble free ignition that greatly reduces popping and banging, go for it. Over the years, pretty much every turbo spark plug puller has spent more money fixing parts and getting last place due to poor ignition than what they would have spent on a mag. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
An msd 8 is just as reliable if not more reliable than a mag. But will not take the boost there for forces them to run less boost. I mentioned it as a way to even up the class period. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Not according to the results  Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Smoke fan
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I will agree you don't need hyper block, coolant, cast iron head, billet rods, 4 turbos.
With 3 monster turbos and a 540+ illegal motor(for LSS) you could make it work. Not sure if a 505 will spin those big girls up top. Run a stock block and break one or two a year. Sure they are cheaper, but from what I gather it's all the internals that are expensive in a diesel when they lift off. Young blood and legacy both split the blocks. Water isn't a must. Some guys will not run witbout it and some wouldn't run with it. If it went back to stock blocks I really think you would make the deisles even more expensive than they are now with breakage and parts. Say the class went to 540 then a diesel could run 3 turbos. But then the alcohol would be that much further ahead in power. Bigger inst better. Justin is on track with limits. But I agree with Jake that you will not get it voted in to move backwards in power. As far as weight. If you put an aluminum head on a smoker I don't know if it would last very long? Lighter rods and components? With all the boost and injecting fuel while the piston is still in its way up to make power seems like lighter parts = more breakage! Lighter weight would put on a better show and make it more of a driver's class. Not saying I have any answers to the issue at all!!! I just like the smoke and booze going head to head. Making a diesel less reliable and more expensive doesn't seem like it would get any more built. Not trying to fight over this or anything. Just stating it how I see it and how it has been explained to me. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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I would really like to see the smoke vs alcohol again too. I think it would be worth a shot to lower weight to 6000 for alcohol and 6200 for diesel and see if some diesel start to show up or get built for the class |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Anonymous User
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A good running diesel Vs. a good running Alky in LSS. An alky running 18:1 gear turning 5500-6500 Rpm has a wheel speed of 60-70 mph.
A diesel Running a 12:1 gear turning 4000-5000 Rpm has a wheel speed of 65-80 Mph. Is HP/Torque a problem, probably not. more about getting them hooked up. Maybe a lesser motor program (and lighter) and a lower gear to get them hooked up would be better. I dont know. nobody has built a diesel strictly for LSS since esdon. I do agree lowering the weight of the class would be a big step in the right direction. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Posts: 744 |
Diesels 6500 lbs, 540 with 2 stages, 504 with 3 stages
Alkies 6000 lbs 504 w/ 2 stages COO for OTTPA www.outlawpulling.com www.truck-specialties.com Schaeffer Oil Representative [www.schaefferoil.com] |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 191 |
Reason showed it could be done. I thought more might follow suit after him. I wonder why they didn't? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
IMO, you are wrong about lowering the weight! Will the top teams not spend more money on Carbon Fiber, Titanium, and other exotic materials? Then you would need to go back to the Old style Double cut tires, and I'd be willing to bet some of the top teams are sitting on NOS tires that are not for sale, and then with the new demand the cost of nice used ones would sky rocket, ie puller 2000 10plys. So then you have a handful of Top tier Tractors that cost 300-500K laying down the same runs they are now, while others are wrecking and tearing up the existing rigs that cost a bunch to build, but now are basically obsolete. Then those guys will quit and now the class is smaller yet. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Agree
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If they had to spend it to get there tractors to run like they do now. Then money doesn't mater. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Crazy
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Mr. Barbee your debate as to reason for not going lighter is the same reason for not having billet blocks. It takes money, and those that have it will spend it no matter what.
There are a number of other LSS in the class that are IH and do not keep up with the three. If not mistaken and in the past 7 to 10 years the Fords won there share of National events, both PPL and NTPA and have been series champions. You can take almost every class and find someone that was willing to do more than the rest and ended up winning a number of championships. Tim Engler, Banters, Petro's, Roberts;, Pessig, Connors, Lustik, Lehn and the list goes on. It is no different now. Chizek has chosen to spend a lot of time, money and effort to do what they are doing and nobody else is and eventually somebody will and they will be the new kid on the block and it will be done without a billet block. I would also suggest being careful in casting stones at others, when you yourself have yet to prove that you can run consistent either and thus the reason you need a billet block. I would suggest that if the issue is the IH block and the re-casting of the block, which others brands are not able to do. Then a rule should be made to dis-allow the use of that block. Which then puts the DT motor back to a level playing field with the rest of the brands from my understanding. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Yupyup
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Is Chizek even running th hyper block? What all light supers are running it? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
Bob , I have spoke to several gn pullers also not my first time around the block. Not too many in favor of a billet block. You have several times personally attacked me on here but your arrogant self can't speak to me in person. Which I honestly and personally don't give a rat's tail. Kevin L. And myself tried to get weight lowered and that was a no way. This billet bullshit is for your personal gain and it will still put you mid pack. Come up with a dam set of rules that's good for the class not for you and 2 other pullers I put my phone number above and I am still waiting on your call? You have 1 thing In your head and it's your personal gain. Sandefur put efi you chased it away which is great but now you want something and hate that it's not what everyone wants stomp your dam feet or set a decent set of rules that's good for the class not just you. Once again my number is 585 721 6873 |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
Eric,
You keep insinuating , and finally came right out and accused me of wanting Billet Blocks because I stand to profit from this. You obviously know nothing about me or my business, yes I was approached about building the blocks, and my Engineer and myself created a cad drawing of a block that would solve the issue for the Fords. After looking at our workload for contract work, and our shop time set aside to build Industrial machinery for our customers, Engineering changes repairs/rebuilds of existing customer equipment, I realized that we simply couldn't do the project ourselves. We then sent the Cad Files to 2 different racing block builders and both of them passed on the project as well due to the low numbers we were wanting made. Ultimately we did find a shop willing to tackle the project but rule didn't pass, So that's when a couple Ford guys decided to bite the bullet and put Red motors in. So again your assumptions are wrong! And Im supposed to call you... You do not support the class, why is your opinion relevant? If I needed my Horses shoed, then I should call you! You keep accusing me of wanting this to help me, when you keep suggesting limits that would almost make your rig competitive again! Eric get out more than two hooks a year and then argue the rules! BB |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
You are correct I have struggled last couple of years, butI have won 2 MSPA State championships 2008/2009 and when I went GN I won the first event I entered and Got 2nd at the next still earning 1st place points though, Last year I won a PPL RN Pull, and have gotten 2nds and 3rds and so on at the GN level. I have supported both GN and PPL events and help promote a PPL champions Tour event. I can make the Tractor go out and place middle of the pack easy enough, but Im not willing to settle for that, Mike Wilhite told me a couple years ago we are beyond the limits of this block, and yet I pushed on...He was right. If the class doesn't want Billet Blocks fine, I haven't mentioned that in the last couple posts, I'm over it, is it needed, YES, but Pullers votes speak. But now we have turned a corner into a discussion that will be the end of the class, Line up all the GN and PPL Champions tour guys and that's what level I have been speaking to, and I dare say maybe 3 guys I can think of would consider lowering the weight! There has been talk about thinking about going to 6500, which I do not want, I think the 6200-6300 is enough. And I sign my name, most of you hide behind your keyboard and act like teenagers.
BB |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Bob, I am going to give you a thumbs up on that statement. The problem here is, and I think that I can speak for many that have posted, is that the state puller will be expected to adopt to the same rules as national rules. If ntpa or ppl allows it on a grand national level that's fine with me, but do not expect me to agree with it on a state level. YOU make the decision to pull gn or state and if you can't pull in your state or my state 1 or 2 times a year because the state org. does not allow billet blocks, and/or the event can't afford a gn pull that may be close to you, don't you or any gn puller complain that ANY state rules are "behind the times." |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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LSS fan
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What is your ideal set of rules Bob? Allow billet block and draw the line there? Or are you for EFI, traction control, OHC, etc...
Also, may be a dumb question but would the billet blocks be steel or aluminum? |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Smoke fan
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I do know for sure there are lss diesel tractors with it. As far as booze burners I have not heard of any running it. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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Smoke fan
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∆running the Hyper block∆ |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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How about getting rid of any ignition system that allows programming in traction control. It is obvious that their are teams using it. Make all drivers have to drive again. |
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Re: Billet Blocks in LSS, It's time
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lewis
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As every one can tell that reads any of my post I wasn't a very good student in English classes I don't even make sence to myself most of the time but I have had two farmstock pullers ,three modified stock pullers and three llss pullers two 570 cockshutts and now a IH and I played a major role in getting the llss classes started in the ORVTPA by getting enough people to commit to build a tractor to get the class started and now its became a big class and still growing the reason is its had rules put in place from the start with very few changes the only changes I no of is. data loggers and the weight went from 5700 to 6000 and went from 24,5 tires to 30s here in KY the class has grew because of the versatility and the affordability which is starting to go a little south..But if you pull a antique or farmstock you are able to advance and move up to the next level theres lots of classes out there that are good stepping stones to advance to the next class from what class out there would be a stepping stone for the light super class there is none a new puller for the lss class has got to do a complete build So how can the numbers ever grow the money has killed the class already so would the soluition be adding a 20 thousand dollar block to the parts list just make that 40 because there needs to be a spare Limits would be the only way to grow the class and guys don't need to think so stupid with todays sleds hp could be cut 500 horses the tractors would stay together and the fans would still get the same show put the billet blocks in the ulss class for people like Barbie that wants to spend money. For the cost of three turbos and that 20 thousand block you would have a good start on a mean llss But whats the big deal theres no loyalty to brand in the lss class anyway if Blackburn is kicking your guys ass with red I'm sure he would use a few cans of blue on a special order it would ge nice to se armed an dangerous with some new KUBOTA SHEET METAL |
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Oh Bob, Bob, Bob!
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OP
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Several things you point out I would like to address.
Titanium-guys already using it in rods and bell housings. Carbon fiber- pretty sure NTPA outlawed carbon fiber drive lines. So you can get a carbon fiber seat for about 600. Can't make a block, roll cage, chassis, drawbar etc out of carbon fiber. Again, you knew what you were building. The same as Karlen's had a choice, our team had a choice, we all had choices in our motor program. We chose Cummins. The solution is more simple than allowing billet blocks. You simply outlaw the Hyper block. The DT stock block is not that strong. I think you will find nationwide more competitors would knock the weight back. Supertiquer would have to clarify but I am pretty sure ISP Lt supers voted to go to 5800 for a trial period of one year. As far as going back to older tires, well I guess it's good we have a very nice set of 8 plys. You took the time to point out all your wins and championships won. So on that note, I wish you further success, albeit without a billet block, you're in the minority on that one. It hasn't done much to improve numbers in the DSS class. Just saying....... Again, best of luck! |
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Re: Oh Bob, Bob, Bob!
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
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Re: Oh Bob, Bob, Bob!
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
i get a charge outa you guys in the lss class that wouldn't even let all the "2wd ag blocks" into the class.block that were perfectly legal in the ss classes for 40 years too,either get your ass handed to you by chisek,or someone with a oliver/white or a mf.oh wait,the ss classes cant have that,now can we........ |
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Re: Oh Bob, Bob, Bob!
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buncha
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Just a bunch of pus wanta be pullers that cant take a real tractor to the track gota supe up front end loaders |
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Re: Oh Bob, Bob, Bob!
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I could say ALOT, but I won't. |
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