01:06:10am, Friday, May 10, 2024
|
Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
Now that the NTPA has delayed any possible enactment of the restrictor plate rule until at least 2018, then it's time to look at what will help the class and the pullers. The NTPA needs to cap the Super Stock classes to no more than 12 hooks per class. If you look at the LSS that only had 8 hooks this year all 10 precommitted pullers completed the entire series. By contrast the DSS with 19 hooks only had three competitors complete the entire series. Some of the pullers that I have talked to have said that the number of events directly effects their willingness to precommit. The pullers need to demand that their classes have a more reasonable number of events. If a class like DSS is in such demand then three Super National events and two other 2 day events should be the schedule for the class. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2016 12:59PM by Dick Morgan. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
The old crazy man
|
The problem with NTPA is they don't have reel grand national show any more. For me a super national or a grand national tractor class should be paid minimum 10,000$ to win and the 15 place should get at least 1000$. If you do so you will get a full class of tractors and you will illuminate a bunch of grand national that in fact are more a state pull. If you look at NHRA they run 3 grand national class. With NTPA you almost see (farm stock) as a grand national class. If the promoter put the money and each class have decent number of hook, the pullers interested to compete at the top level will do what it take to be part of the show. To be call a grand national or a super national, a show should have a minimum of 4 of the following class: Unlimited Mod, Open Super Stock, Prostock, Diesel Super Stock tractor and Light Super Stock. All the others classes should be at the promoter discretion and be paid the way they are now. We are still running rules that are 50 years old. The grand national tractors should be able to use what is the best technology available today including electronic injection and all electronic device that can be find on today racing market. You would be surprise to find that it could save big mecanical failure by controlling every aspect of the engine.
If you look at what electronic have brought to the farmer and farm tractor for the last 15 years, it speak by itself. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
no dropping hooks
|
Dick, what are you thinking? Allow them to drop a hook? What kind of solution is that? Championships are built on consistency and hard work. Yes, parts can fail and it's beyond your control. But allowing a puller to drop a hook because he had a bad night is absolute stupidity. When you do this, you're telling the rest of the class "you just ran for nothing tonight, but thanks for coming out".
We ditched the ability to drop a hook in our club, and thank goodness because it was a farse from the get go. All it did was give guys the ability to skip a hook (no show) they didn't particularly like (which I know is not the purpose). How do you think that made the promoter feel? This is exactly what is wrong with society today......everybody wants the reward without the risk or the work. Stupid, absolutley stupid thinking. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
Thanks for your response. I think it will actually increase the numbers of pullers that will complete the series. In the current format there is almost no insensitive once you have missed an event to try and make the rest of the scheduled hooks. I don't believe any puller would just skip a hook. The risk is to great that down the road they will need the ability to drop. And for the puller/pullers that makes every show they have the ability to drop a low place hook so the ability to drop a hook is fair for everyone. The truth is the pullers love to pull, they will not "just" stay home. How many pulls have you been to where a pullers has to take his/her tractor to the pull and just bump the sled so they can stay in the points race. Who wins when this happens, the pullers, the promoter, the fan? Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2016 11:32PM by Dick Morgan. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Ben Kline
|
Has anyone hear of Ron Kukler? I do not know if this design can move enough fuel or have the durability. But it definitely takes the high cylinder pressure spike out of diesel combustion, which would save some wear and tear. And I know his whole point was to clean up diesel engines but I think he missed a research opportunity on the most stressed diesel fueled class that i know of in the world. I know everyone loves the smoke but if the smoke clears buy burning more of the fuel the alcohols are going to have a problem! The injector splits the injection into two events the first is actuated mechanically by the piston creating cylinder pressure. The second is actuated by a simple solenoid, not expensive piezoelectric controls. The second injection is hydraulically multiplied to 160,000 PSI. How that 160,000 is reached i would like to know? Looking at the design I do not see a real problem in actuating the solenoid second injection mechanically so that other classes like pro stock could take advantage of it.
Ron Kukler, 160,000PSI! |
|
Some idea's for the class
|
Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
The more I have thought about the SS classes and the DSS in particular the more I am wondering how did we get here. How did one of the classes that all National level pulling was built on, the grand daddy of pulling classes, how did it evolve into a class where there where only 3 tractors left pulling for the championship. What went wrong and what is the cure? As I have already stated limiting the number of events is one path forward. However I think that with the DSS class and the maintenance that is required to keep them on the track something more than just reducing the schedule needs to happen. One change I believe that will make the championship more exciting is to allow each puller to drop [1] one hook per pulling season. In pulling when you have missed one hook because breakage then basically your run for the championships over. While I believe that all of pulling would benefit by allowing the pullers to drop a hook I think that the DSS would benefit the most. With numbers already low anything that gets the pullers back on the track is win win for the promoters, pullers and fans. So here are a couple ideas to help the class.
1; Reduce the number of hooks and drop all weekday hooks that are not Super National events, 2; Allow the pullers to drop 1 hook per season. 3; Do serious research on restrictor plates and/or injection pumps limitations. 4; Explore merging with one of the SS classes or running a smoker type series with the Pro Stock class. This one idea would do more to bring excitement back into SS pulling than any other thing pulling can do. Splitting the fuel types was the start of the death knell of growth in SS pulling. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2016 02:09PM by Dick Morgan. |
|
Re: Perhaps I can help
|
Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Maybe an alternative way of doing what Dick suggests is adopting what NHRA does with their Lucas Oil series. They know top alcohol dragsters and funny cars arent going to make every race. They get points toward their championship at both national and divisional events. They can race at as many as they like, but get points for their best 6 out of 8 events for both national and divisional races.
Later in the year if a racer has already competed at the max points events, they still race as blockers, meaning if whatever points they would have earned are simply not awarded. That way, they can still have an impact on the points race even if they aren't receiving points. For pulling, the national/regional thing can be dropped since it doesnt apply. It could be adopted as follows: First, there is a disparity in the # of scheduled hooks per class. I'd suggest if a class has 10 or fewer hooks like LSS this year, all those hooks count with no misss allowed. Want to make it 12 instead of 10, fine. Once a class has more than 10 (or 12) scheduled hooks, then for points it becomes either A) you earn points at the best 10 out of 12 (or 12 out of 14 or 15) hooks, or B. )simply say your best 10 (or 12) finishes count for points, regardless of how many hooks a class has. This one would keep the possibility of earning points on the table....unless someone does a Triple Bypass and wins most of the hooks. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2016 11:29PM by The Original Michael. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Registered: 04/06/2008 Posts: 387 |
My question is if you limit the number of hooks to say 12, why can't NTPA go into a "bidding" process for the class? NTPA is very fortunate that they have a diesel super stock class, I hope they don't run them into the ground. Dan Mayer www.pulling-reference.com Dedicated to Preserving the History of Tractor & Truck Pulling |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
Dan I think the pullers have wondered the same thing, if we are in such demand why not have the promoters bid on the class. And yes the NTPA has a habit of over booking their popular classes, I understand it from a business perspective, how ever the NTPA needs to view the pullers as partners and not contract labor. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2016 09:48AM by Dick Morgan. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Grubby
|
It's real easy folks. Make it worth their while to show up and start paying them what they deserve. I paid $22 to go to the Thursday show at Tomah and watch 49 tractors. Add in $4 for a beer and you have to wonder why the winner got a gas card or a microwave and maybe enough money to cover getting to the pull in the first place. Do you think they give John Force a wed wacker when he wins? |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Greg
|
I like the idea of promoters bidding to have the SS at their pull. If I were a SS puller i would advocate taking bids from all pulling organizations for available slots not just NTPA pulls. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Tracy t
|
Dick I think it was a couple of years ago that Doug T wanted to change the rules so pullers could drop a couple of hooks. Not sure what the other pullers thought of the idea |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors, Points, etc.
|
Dave Dann
|
1) Dropping an event or two from your points total is not fair. OSTPA has done this now for a few years. One of their class champions this year missed the season's opener. Of course, that is the one he dropped. The puller earning second in points attended all the evetns and actually performed quite consistently at the top of the class. So how is it fair that he made the total season's events and ended up second when he actually earned the most overall points? He got shafted. Just go study the OSTPA points spread sheet to learn more what effect dropping the number of events from the points total actually does.
2) Why should a class with only a handful of vehicles earn the same total points for the winner as a class with a bounty of competitors? Total number of entries X 2 = maximum points plus 10 points for hooking or 5 points for scratching (likely broke & cannot run in following session). This allows a puller who has unexpected breakage an incentive to get back together and continue his/her points hunt. Look a little further and compare. Let's use NTPA 2016 GN TWD versus GN DSS as actual examples only. Big difference all season in number of competitors. With only a few competitors (8 pulling for points) as in DSS and with current system earning a maximum 30 points, breakage can soon relegate a puller to giving up on the season as the remaining few pullers have a ballooned points system in their favor. (8 x 2 + 10 = 26 maximum points if all 8 GN licensed competitors pulled that event. If only 4 licensed pullers, the 4 x 2 + 10 = 18 points for the winner.) Contrast that to 31 TWD running for points. And still, the winner also earned only 30 points with lots in those big classes only earning the 15 hook points, which is not fair for their sincere pulling efforts. (31 x 2 +10 = 72 points for the winner and the last place puller would receive 12 points. If say 14 of the licensced pullers competed in the event's session, then 14 x 2 + 10 = 38 points to the winner and again, 12 points to last place who actually hooked and made a measurable distance.) Bottom line, a points system like this rewards the pullers equitably for their contribution. We used this system in our club for years and it worked very well. 3) I love the DSS class and what I am going to say is not meant to pick on them. I was just in my photo and film negative archives searching for some specific tractors and sleds. One page of negatives certainly made me stop and evaluate. It was the mid '80's, at a Wolverine (Michigan) state event. There were more 7SS tractors there than we usually see today on the GN or the Region or the State circuits. The cost to build and maintain these tractors has simply become astronomical. I applaud those that continue to do such. There certainly is a vast difference in performance between tractors competing in those 3 circuit levels. There are already SSD's out there that are "restrictive" in their power output because they have chosen to do such. Will the new "restricted" possible rules restrict them even further? Some of them already are getting whomped quite severely when other 'smoker' tractors (yes, even SF will whomp these SSD's) jump up into the SS class. Good luck to the powers in charge in trying to find an equitable situation. That has been a quest in this class since NTPA was founded. A puller's will to win, $$, time & technology certainly has seen the DSS evolve to a degree that likely very few could have ever envisioned when the fundamental pulling rules were written. How can they really be altered today without stepping on some puller's current investment? And a last comment. Somebody in the"restrictor plate" thread took a pot shot at Brian Shramek that I believe was very undue. I have been at the Enderle on the Sunday and have listened in on some of those Divisional Committee meetings. Brian, being the SSD committee's chairman, listen's to what his competitor friend's have to say. And Brian asks questions to learn more of their situation (Boxler & Raymond in this situation as their engine setups are much different than the norm) and remains open minded to recommend to the divisional committee and thus to the Full Board, not to outlaw those pullers. Ingenuity and diversity has always been at the forefront of the SS class. Hopefully, it remains such. But how to contain it cost wise has been a 40 year challenge. 4) Promoters in essence have been bidding to get the GN SSD class at their event. Not all promoters requests are honored. This is a means to limit the number of venues and give the pullers some breathing time for maintenance and family/business committments. It is time to get sleep. I'll see in the morning how bad I am getting shot at. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors, Points, etc.
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
point races really do nothing for me,personally I think theyre vway outdated and overrated.back in the day(80s),following the puller and/or pulling power mags you could kinda follow the points/results to see whos going to be at the pulls that are coming up,now the internet and facebook have made following the pullers/teams so easy that the points race is useless.i wonder how many pullers if given the choice of a bg ring or a ntpa points title would chose the ring or title ????? |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Registered: 04/29/2011 Posts: 32 |
Make a common engine cube and tire size between Supers and Pros, so a pro could weight down, pull with supers for fun, testing, a second hook, or just to help the numbers. Fans would love seeing them head to head.
Buster |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
researcher
|
"Motorwood", NTPA rules do allow PS to compete in SSD class, be it GN, Region or State.
2015 NTPA rulebook, Super Stock Tractors: Engines - "No overhead cams or hemi style head allowed at RN level in both Light and Heavy divisions." So that means those style heads are allowed on GN. So Fred Hidebrand, who has recently staged dissatisfaction that he is not allowed, according to interpreting the above quoted sentence, is allowed to compete on GN. |
|
Re: Super Stock Tractors needs to run a reasonable schedule
|
Registered: 07/14/2011 Posts: 59 |
Hi, After reading these posts, I have a couple of thoughts. 
I agree that an easier schedule would be a good thing. Give the teams some time between hooks to keep their tractors on the track. That would also allow for a better points race and an incentive to stay in the race. After all, NHRA doesn't schedule the Funny Cars to run 3 times a week, the Top Fuel cars once a week, and the Pro Stocks once a month... The same goes for NASCAR and any other major motorsport. I think "dropped hooks" can be a good thing. However, to make a dropped hook policy work, it can get overly-complicated because you have to factor in things like number of hooks (minimum and maximum), strength of competition, whether to drop both the worst hook AND the best hook (like the way they judge things at the Olympics), etc... One of the posts said dropping hooks was stupid. What I find stupid is allowing people to use it as an excuse to not show up! If you are going to use the "dropped hook" policy, it MUST apply only to a hook that the person actually showed up at, and hooked to the sled, and made an attempt to make a pass. As far as a points system, I like to keep things simple. If you show up, register, and pay your entry fee = 1 point. If you hook to the sled and make an attempt = 1 point. Then, as far as the pulling is concerned, you get points dependent on the number of tractors in your class. The beauty of this system is that it takes into account the "strength of the competition". For example, if you go to a pull and there is only 3 tractors in your class, you get 3 points for the win. But, the next week you show up and there are 30 tractors in your class and you beat them all, you get 30 points for your efforts. And finally, I have a question/comment... Why do some associations have different rules between National level and Regional level, for the same class (or basically the same class)? I mean, I guess I can understand why they do it; but wouldn't it make more sense to have the same rules and just let the factors of time/travel/resources/money decide who wants to stay regional, a little of both, or full-on national? Later ....... 
|
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,724, Posts: 229,854, Members: 3,330.
This forum: Topics: 37,084, Posts: 225,979.
Global: Topics: 38,724, Posts: 229,854, Members: 3,330.
This forum: Topics: 37,084, Posts: 225,979.
Our newest member LT Limited Pro
