06:08:34am, Tuesday, May 07, 2024
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Random Thoughts
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,448 |
Just some random thoughts; I believe that the Super Farm from the beginning should have been 466 cubic inch, 8500 lbs and run 20.8 tires. There needed to be a visual difference the classes. The Pro Stock should have been under 600 cubic inch and a 9000 lb class, and the 619 BBJD should never have been allowed in the class. The Hyper Block never should have been allowed in tractor pulling and neither should the Cummins been approved in the SS class. The “any sheet metal any engine” rule is also something that is not helping to grow the sport. There are to many National hooks to many look-alike classes and in some classes there are to many hooks. Tractor pulling sells itself to cheaply. Anybody and everyone that wants a National event gets some form of a National class. While I understand the NTPA business model, membership and hook fees pays the bills I would like to see them build their State/ Regional level and limit the number of National events. By limiting the number of events and the number of hooks for every class the prestige and value of the National circuit increases.
The TWD class is the only class in tractor pulling that if you own a full body truck you can hook from Massachusetts to California with out any worry of rules. The Mini class is exciting not only because of the growth but also the pullers that are entering the class, some of the best pullers are now jumping into the class. Should there be a rule that if a National organization adds a class to their National circuit should they have to drop one. My question is this; if/when the 4.1 and/or the Light PS is added as a National class should they drop a look-alike class such as the SF? With so many classes that run either 24.5 or 30.8 tires what is really point of having so many classes? I talked to a puller the other day and we got talking about the visual difference between any hooded tractor versus any other tractor as far as what does the fan see? We talked about the speed of a SF vs. PS going down the track and with today's sleds they look vertically the same. It now becomes a job of the announcer to tell the fans what they are seeing, that not only does the sled weigh more but the box is moving faster to slow the tractor down, that there is a vast difference in HP and wheel speed. Which bring me to today's sleds. I think that the modern sled is far and away the biggest technological improvement in the sport. With the right operator and sled setting almost every class [ other than the visual difference in classes] looks almost the same going down the track. From the most powerful to the least powerful what is the speed at the 270' mark on the track for each and every class? Is there really enough of a difference to justify that added expense and maintenance for certain classes? Should National pulling have a “ funds pool” that has every National event contribute to and this money is paid out to the pullers at the end of the year? Should events that have large crowds help to support National events that do not enjoy huge numbers? And last, but not least when/will agricultural prices have an effect on National pulling? Is the current economy going to allow pulling in some of the classes in the future that they have enjoyed up to today? Please feel free to agree, disagree, Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 04:22AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
True. However, why did you say full body? Because back when Rich Santefort was pulling, his Valco deal with ATPA gave advantages to full bodied trucks. To their discredit, PPL never did away with this abomination of a rule for their Champions Tour. Every other org in both the US and Canada that I'm aware of has a heads up, level playing field for full body and other styles in the TWD class. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 04:00AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Pullinfan4255
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What I think he was referring to was that the TWD class is the only class that doesn't have to worry about different rules in different parts of the country which is only true if you run a full bodied truck as the t buckets would need to take weight off to run PPL. To add to it though, this is not true unless you were already running VP fuel as the Outlaws require VP fuel and VP decals on the vehicles. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 04/06/2008 Posts: 974 |
I don't disagree with anything dick said but isn't this a dead horse issue...... |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 04/07/2008 Posts: 781 |
I get a little worked up when people want a 466 limit. what about case white Minnie massey deere ih duetz Hesston etc all have bigger. super farm started in 80s as farm tractors with improvments,13 mm, 450 rosa masters etc none cuts pto and hydrolics. they keep advancing and creating more power progress. every class keeps advancing all the way down to stock |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Posts: 347 |
While I mostly agree with your PS ci limits Dick, ensuring a limit that kept the JD 619 out wasn't going to stop a BBJD build.......the 531 is the same basic engine, just less ci. Most parts are interchangeable between the two.
I couldn't agree more on the dislike of the "any sheetmetal rule". How disappointing it is as a fan at National events to think someone has come up with a killer off brand build, only to find out it's not a matching brand engine. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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plum krazy
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I am a puller and can not see or tell much difference in the big tire classes. Driver's abilities are becoming apparent when limited mods can compete with unlimited.Which is good because in many levels of pulling that is what makes driving fun.Big money rules most motor sports,just the way the cookie crumbles. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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966
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I have to say I agree with you dick sf should only be 466 cubes and on ag tires it make just much smoke they be able push it past cage it was good class until they opened up cubes and put on puller tires go too some brush pulls there's alot tractor running 3/3 charger on 20.8 with 466 cube motor putting alot people in stands |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
I'm not sure why you say the Cummins should be left out,it was offered in a lot of tractors.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I'm not 100% sure (this is just a guess) but I think he's referring to the 903 Cummins (or any Ag block) being allowed in the SS classes. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,448 |
Yes, the 903 was the point, and I should have added any ag block. I missed that in my post ,sorry about my vagueness. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 02:28PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 04/28/2011 Posts: 137 |
I was a teenage puller in the seventies when it wasn't so much about how much money could be spent. I moved to south Mississippi and was estranged from tractor pulling for about 35 years. When I started watching tractor pulling on YouTube I could not believe how much power was being generated or the money being spent on these tractors. Now to my point, from now a spectator's view (and I believe that's the purpose of these questions is what the spectators want to see) the most important thing to keep interest in this exciting sport is to have classes not designed for just John Deere and International. I know that John Deere and International are the most popular brand, BUT being born with Massey blood in my body I believe there has to be away to put more color in the classes. Carlton Cope for instance, people that don't even like Massey get excited and want to see him pull and when he is pulling you can't count him out. I now drive several hundred miles to see Carlton pull and it's not entirely because I'm a Massey fan but it's another color. Make the classes more color competitive, in the seventies everyone had a chance to win. Put more orange, blue, yellow tractor in the classes. This is strictly my opinion Mr. Morgan and I always respect your views on most topics but to say Prostock shouldn't allow 640 engines would do away with the 640 perkins in the class. I will say I agreed with you on any engine issue. The engine should match the brand. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Central Iowa
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I'm coming around to the idea of less cubic inches in PS. As a Massey fan myself it wouldn't bother me because the 540 block would still be option. I too would like to see the sheet metal rule changed. I think part of the reason there isn't more color in the classes is parts availability and research. Popularity is another reason as Europe seems to have a lot more AGCO tractors |
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Re: Pro stock engine ?
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Before adding a thought about engines, need to know how long does a typical PS engine last these days? |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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1. wasn't super farm supposed to be an entry level class when it was first introduced? I'd hate to know what a "from the ground up" build would cost for a competitive super farm would cost. 120,000 - 140,000... substantially cheaper if you can do your own work
2. any sheet metal rule is stupid.... it confuses fans 3. fans want to see smoke and speed, or noise and speed.... look at the ground speed display at a lot of pulls, and the announcer always talking about it 4. ulss should be just that... run what ya brung, |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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more random thoughts
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We want more color!
We don't like the any sheet metal any engine rule! Pulling is getting to expensive |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Painter
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Want more color? Vary the payout based on color/engine. JD and IH should have the base pay and the less popular brands get better payout. I think it would be surprising how much color would show up. And that would keep the right engines under the right hood.. no need for a rule |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Walking dead. 2004
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I think they should cut the PS cu in rule in half. 340 cubes are enough for them guys to go as fast as a sf anyway. |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Examples?
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How much are you thinking the pay out would need to be, to get someone to spend The kinda of money it takes to build a puller, and then come out and never win?
Or are we assuming that the less popular brands are not showing up just because no pullers like them? |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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DNcommittee
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Did you support Hillary in 16'? |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
I look at the participation swing as simply there just isn't nearly the people that have a connection to a tractor that there was 20 years ago.in my county I can drive you around,hell even in my township,for 30-45 minutes and you can see the abandoned/run down farms.the people (young men) that are typically attracted to pulling just aren't here anymore.in my county theres gotta be a hundred antique pullers,but I can only think of 1 state,region,gn type vehicle in the whole county.garden tractor pulling is huge local to me,36 pulls this season within a 37 miles of my house,in the county neighboring mine.its so big cause theres so many homes that have a garden tractor,probably 3/4 of the homes outside of the boroughs have a garden tractor,therefore more are interested |
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Re: Random Thoughts
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Registered: 01/28/2014 Posts: 14 |
If Super Farm was at 510 ci, 20.8-38 tires, and 9,500 pounds, I would run my tractor in that class. That's how it'll be set up for Hot Farm here anyways. Still not cheap to build, but visually different on tire size and cheaper than building a current Super Farm setup. The current Super Farm setup is far from an entry level class anyway. |
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Re: Color
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I for one dont care at all what sheet metal is on a component rearend or any rearend for that matter. In the big classes sheet metal is about the only thing factory so why does it matter?
I'm an Oliver guy and there is a big gap in olivers cubic inch offerings from the factory which make 466 hard to meet. I'm not confused its 90 percent aftermarket so why would i care if they start with a JD block or recast aftermarket block. Lets face it they are all modified tractors we just pretend they are "Pro-stock" I'm same way on pickups, there is nothing factor so I don't care what body you run. Run a Ford Taurus wagon on a Toyota motor for all I care. Why keep pretending they have anything to do with factory. |
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Re: Rendom thoughts
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researcher
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Fickled highly variable weather nailed me with a horrible deep cold. Starting to feel better and thus reason for delay to this topic.
As usual, it is always interesting to see how many ways that Dick and/or Jake can gift wrap the same perpetual subject. Dick, you proposed a 'should of' limit size for Super Farm. Ahh, that old adage of how wonderful hindsight is. However, it does nothing to help solve today's situation. Let's consider some history of SF & PS. First PRO STOCK. M-F debuted the Perkins V-8 Diesel engine in '70 - '72 in the model 1150. It was known as the 510 but was actually 503.8 cubes. (No wonder in recent years, some LSS pullers wanted to build an alky V-8. Way those current class rules are written, it should be permitted. Be far more feasible than having allowed the 903 block in SSO.) M-F 1155, '73 - '78 is Perkins 540. M-F 2775, '78 - '83 is Perkins 640. Same as in M-F 2805 that Don Berry from Missouri pulled as "Old # 1" (it was first serial # of the 2805's) in 12SS and 12 Open. The point is, the manufacturer is improving what they are offering. Thus, the consumer, farmer and puller want to continue to upgrade, too. PS debuted on Grand National circuit in '81 as 10,000 & 12,000. Promoted as the entry level tractor class. Many announcers sure knew how to make their point about such. According to '84 rulebook, the 4 Mod and 4 SS classes had to pull before the PS. Further investigation in '84 PS rules find there were very few rules. It was obvious, the competitor was competing with a very stock appearing tractor, even to the point the wheelbase could not be altered more than one inch. No where, as I searched through the rulebook, page by page, does it specify an engine cubic inch limit. In fact, for any class. '81 PS GN champs were Roudebussch's M-F and Vories' IH. '82 was McQueen's JD and Steve Smith A-C. Wow, nice color mix already. And there were several Case's out doing well, too. '83 found Linder Bros. claiming both championships, as they and Vories were now on the pulling path during the next few years to claim a few titles. '82 debuted the PS in Region 2 (Horst Bros. - Case) and Region 3 (Sherman's 6030 and Vories = Tie). Hypothesis: There are a pair of names that certainly have made an impact over the decades of pulling - Vories and Linder. Do you surmise that they, or anyone involved in the rule making process, would have ever envisioned just how far technological advances would actually propel the PS class into the furture? Or in fact, any class. Voreis and Linder's, if you are reading this, be nice to hear your input. Comparing the '84 PS rules are a stark contrast to studying what those PS rules are today!!! And what we see on the track today is likewise. It is easy to see the validity of the 640 engine. My longtime memory is fading as to why 680 became the magic PS cube limit. Since the engine is by far the biggest financial investment in producing a dedicated pulling tractor, then it is not feasible to outlaw the 680 engine. But it is likely feasible to put limits on fuel injection pump (no Sigma's, no custom built 12 or 16 plunger pumps) and limited turbo size. No matter, what is done, not everybody will be happy. But something has to be done to try to start to contain the out of control cost. And yet, despite this, the PS class in one that continues to grow with the pullers stepping up into this class. A friend is a machinist. Last pulling season, a PS that became a national champion was fitted with three completely different turbos. When someone offered the latest, greatest hot new ticket turbo, the tractor was fitted with it. The machinist told me, it was all brand new piping custom fabrication and installation each time, too, that he did as that is what the owner wanted. Wow, what expense. So, at what point does all this need to stop? Or least slow down, so the class does not come of ruination? And It is not just the PS. Okay, SUPER FARM. Yeah, I know, there will be a bunch of you with a stomach ache. But I thoroughly believe there are only a few chatboarders that truly hate the class. I would much rather watch them any time over a class laden with a hight percentage of T-buckets in the 2wheelers. Let's go back to the roots of the SF class and give it the credit it is due. Recently inducted NTPA Hall of Famer, Ken Lamping in Minnesota started this class in '96. Read his story in the Jan. "the PULLER". The SF class became so popular, so quickly in numerous states, being dubbed now as the 'NTPA entry level tractor class', that it was granted GN status in 2003. It is easy to understand why it was given the 640 cube limit. Just like any other pulling class, just look how far new technology has advanced the power and torque these engine's have produced in the past 20 years. It is about a doubling, So why does this class take such a pounding from a few of you chatboaders (NO, I really do not want to hear your answers anymore!) With the power increase in SF, how is that really any different percentage wise than what we have seen in the other pulling classes? The SF, Light PS, Limited PS have their limits set in the rules and seems to be working. Yet, none are a cheap entry level class. And they each produce a great show. Yet, if they were allowed open limits, just how much more costly would one of those beasts more and yet limit the number of pullers who would invest in such? In fact, "Michigan 4320", certainly the IPL "Hot Farm" class is no cheap entry level class to jump into, either. Look at the time those guys spend at Overmyer or Salenbien's dyno. Those tractors put on a great show and look the part of professionalism. So Dick, to come back to your first point about SF 'should have been', that would have made, in theory, for less color in the class. Your stated 466, 20.8 but boost your weight up to 10,000 are the criteria for NTPA's Pro Farm class. And guess where it is rather popular. Minnesota. Perhaps it will catch on elsewhere. And if it does, then in 20 years, we can possibly say, "oh, should have". |
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Re: Rendom thoughts
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,448 |
Researcher, thank you for your response. I do believe that in the near future we will see pump and/or turbo limits on the PS's. I know we can go back and forth about this, however I predict that by 2019 we will see limits in both PPL and NTPA. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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