But what would Esdon do?
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"pull in the heavyclass where he belongs"
Man that outta stir up a can of worms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm proud of you Cory. lol |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Pulling as a whole always seems to justify new classes and new rules with the “it works for us” attitude. And while I’m extremely glad that it works for you, generally that attitude hurts the sport and/or the class in the long run. The “it works for us” attitude generally causes a class to become very fractured, with different rules from club to club to club. These different rules do two things that are extremely detrimental: 1. it potentially limits pullers from being able to travel between clubs, or it limits them from being competitive in another club. This not only hurts pullers but it hurts fans from seeing the best possible show with a “surprise” pullers showing up at any event. 2. Because a tractor is built for a specific set of rules for a specific club it has very limited resale value, and a very small resale market. This is extremely detrimental to the puller who spends money on his puller and the club near him has it’s own set of rules.
As for me being 750 miles away, and fixing your class… how can I fix it? I have an opinion, but I don’t write the rules for your club. I have a webpage, but I don’t have a vote at your meetings. I have an opinion, nothing more, and while this country is still a somewhat free country I have the right to express that opinion. I always think its funny that when I write my opinion and someone agrees with me, it’s all great and everything is rosy and the sun is shining and they thank me for writing about their class, but if I disagree with them I’m a jerk that lives far away and shouldn’t be meddling in anyone else’s business. Sometime we agree, sometimes we disagree, it’s all good. I honestly don’t care if we agree or disagree, I care that we are expressing our opinions on what we think is best for the class, not what’s best for us, or a small group. It doesn’t matter if you have $25,000, $50,000, or $150,000 invested in your tractors your opinion counts the same. It doesn’t matter if you own the tractor, or if you are the crew chief, you’re still entitled to your opinion. It’s doesn’t matter if you built your tractor or bought your tractor you’re still entitled to your opinion, it doesn’t matter if you sit in the stands or sit in the seat, you’re still entitled to your opinion. I enjoy all the opinions on this page, even the ones I don’t agree with (of which there are often many), and I enjoy that so many people care so deeply about the sport. I care about what’s good for the sport, not about what’s good for a specific club. “It works for us” almost never takes into account the big picture. As for the GN LSS, it’s long-term success is very dependant on the state and local clubs. For a class to be healthy it needs a feeder system/farm system, (like AAA baseball is to ML  . Unified rules across all levels allow that feeder system to function correctly.
Thanks for the opinion. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Jake,
I want to throw out some counterpoints to your arguments and probably throw in a couple of rants of my own. 
“It works for us”. That one often comes from those who resist to someone else’s definition of ‘progress’. I’m not saying it applies to the LSS class, but all to often in pulling I hear of changes in rules in the name of progress. Change the turbo rule, change the pump rule, raise the CID limit all in the name of progress. My definition of progress is getting more from the same. Better cam specs. Better flowing head (same head, not cast to billet or cam in block to OHC). More efficient turbo. Every year every puller has to make the decision of whether to stay in the game or get out. Many of the “It works for us” crowd made the decision to get out, but still have the desire. Those tractors are going to sit in a shed or pull in another class, they will not be upgraded by their owners & are not an attractive buy for anyone else because they are outdated. The SF class is a perfect example of this. There are some local pullers that have upgraded & jumped up to SF, but there are almost as many who have downgraded their PS when they either didn’t want to (or couldn’t afford to) upgrade to Simga pumps & billet heads or grew tired of constantly wrenching on a Pro. In LSS let’s consider as an example a 686 that had been pulling competitively with the 505’s before components. He’s running a 359 & 2 chargers with a P pump & good 30.5 tires. If he wants to pull Badger State LLSS he has to bore the block to fit custom sleeves, the P pump has to be upgraded to quick delievery. His 3x4 charger is going to cost as much as his S4 & HX83 did together. He needs an intercooler & icebox system. His head will probably need extensive work to utilize the bigger bore. The gears will need to be changed & the tires too. All that to go slower? Of course to compete in LSS he can keep his tires & sheetmetal; pretty much everything else has to be replaced. “Different rules from club to club”. Honestly, how much jumping around is there? My group has about 20 hooks. Early in the year & late in the year we have open weekends, but during the heart of the season our weekends are pretty much booked. We have picked up visitors occasionly but the guys representing us to the promoters can’t really promise anything related to that when selling the classes. They pretty much know who shows up regularly & thus who they can count on for numbers in each class; visitors don’t really play into that. IMHO unified rules have done more to drive UP costs for the puller. Unless you’re willing to drop a bunch, Hyper, Columbus, & etc are not going to R&D ‘new & improved’ turbos for 1000 different rules. However, if 50 organization around the country are running the same rules (see SF) they will do it & they will not be shy about charging for it. Yes it fits my definition of progress above, but yet is this even really progress? If everyone goes out & buys the upgraded chargers every year does anyone but the vendor really get ahead? After all our contests are relative to competors so we don’t have an absolute gauge like elasped time or MPH. You may have a valid point about resale. I’ve seen tractors that were bought from a video & I’ve seen several that didn’t perform along with some that did! Building is part of the experience for me so I’ll admit I don’t have a good feel for the buy perspective. You talk about feeding the national classes but honestly do you see a strong LSS class anywhere but Wisconsin and possibly Mid South? Ohio is very strong in several classes. Mid South covers several states, so I guess they have a couple of GN hooks in their area but one thing I see in common in Wisconsin & OH is that each have one of the 2 biggest GN pulls and almost no other GN hooks. Could that be because the state organizations have booked up the other venues capable of supporting a GN pull? Who is pulling at the smaller venues? Jake, IMHO you are living in the past with your desire to see the local folks mix it up with the GN boys. Back when everyone was bolting on truck turbos & turning up the stock pumps or adding Hilborn injection systems it worked. There really wasn’t that much more invested in the GN vehicles vs. the local ones & it did help the GN show as it essentially became local plus those following the GN circuit. The billet parts have truly been a mixed blessing. They have improved the performance & reliability of the GN vehicles tremendously, but at the same time they have increased the cost tremendously too. I see the county fair that draws in a couple thousand fans as the backbone of the State level organizations. They can’t pay the kind of purses required to support several classes of GN caliber vehicles and so they are turning to organizations like ORVTPA for classes with affordable vehicles and purses the fair can afford. Soon state level NTPA groups may be as hard to find as glaciers in farm country. (Maybe Al Gore can fix that too! Thankfully he invented the internet so we can have this discussion! )
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
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I like this conversation that has been created here about LSS and LLSS. I don't own or drive either one, but I've probably seen more runs by a LSS than any other pulling vehicle in the past 25 years that pulling has been my motorsport of choice. Somehow, some way, the ORVTPA figured it out how to develop parity in the alky vs diesel battle and I say kudos to them. While a handful of alcohol tractors are certainly at the top of the game (Bentley, Dibble, Knasel, Sipes being the ones that come to mind) diesels like Travis Gordon's Ford can come out and play with the best of them. Is 6000 the right weight? It is close, maybe 5800 is the bottom limit. The advent of the roll cage diminished the ability of many a tractor to get down below 5800, and in the name of safety it is a compromise that I am happy to live with from a fan's perspective. If something isnt broke, dont fix it!
The funny thing here is that theres a few of these LSS components now that could make 5500 with driver which is the very spot where those who are the best drivers are quickly identified. I havent a clue as to what would happen, and I dont know as though I want to find out. The closest thing Ive ever seen to such a hook was Jeff Hirt hooking in the 6 SS at the Sullivan pull 7 or so years ago with the old Runing Bare. Needless to say I thought he did a good job of keeping the chaos of 650 inches of alcohol engine properly under control to make a decent pass. Bottom line, LSS needs to stay in the neighborhood of 6200 plus or minus 200lbs. Do we need another class in here? No. Any "3-plow rated" pulling tractor left in the barn today has a home--LLSS. They run, they dont seem to break as much as a LSS, and they put on a show. Yes, an OEM is going to have a harder time running against a component, but that isnt a death sentence. Too many good running and performing OEM chassis still out to say otherwise. Of course this all an opinion, what do I know? By the way Jake, I don't think a 4010 or a 7910 have ever been hooked to a 3 bottom plow, at least what Ive seen--they're beasts compared to the other tractors in your description Thanks for the message board as always.
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