NTPA Mod classes January 28, 2020 12:34PM
A couple questions that I have been thinking about concerning the three Mod classes that the NTPA offers. Do we need three Mod classes? Will the screw blowers in the LT Mod class be a class killer or savior? Will the screw blowers in the Unl. Mod class discourage non-screw blower vehicles from running in the class? Will the screw blower kill or save the Unl. Mod class? I find it interesting that a LSS built to the rules in NTPA can hook at any NTPA state organizations. Same with TWD, PS, FWD, SF, DSS, and other classes. The only two classes I believe that can't hook at state level organizations would be the LT. Mod with screw blowers and of course the screw blower Unl. Mods. Someone can tell me if I'm wrong on my understanding.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 12:58PM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 28, 2020 02:20PM
It needs to go back to two mod classes for NTPA. The Light Unlimited class would make the most sense to go. If the 7500 Mod class would dissolve how many of those pullers would jump to PPL? If screw blowers are the only way to win in both light and heavy unlimited, for the most part, maybe Ntpa should keep a mod class with screws being the heavy unlimited and a mod class with non screw blowers. There is not enough tractors for all 3 to survive in the long run.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 01:05AM
What tractors have been lost to the light unlimited? Who was planning to build for either of the other two classes and then built to run light unlimited? How many of the light unlimited guys would run mod also if they were allowed to? How many tractors got parked when NTPA cut the 5800 mod? I think the best bet would be to keep all 3 and may the best class (es) survive. If you cut the light class I would see the guys currently running probably drop down to the regional class instead of jumping up.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 01:47AM
Can you run a screw blower in the mod class or only in the lite and unlimited class
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 06:47AM
Matt D
Screw blowers are in the Lt and Heavy Unlimited only.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 06:44AM
I think there are several tractors that would run both the Lt. Class and the GN Mod hooks if the rules were more friendly to do that. We would with two tractors. Likley others would be Wayson,Gibson and possibly Writsels.

I think if the GN Lt Unlimited were to go away about half would go GN Heavy Unlimited and half would go GN Mod. Could be that some would do what we did and go RN Mod. I think a lot of that would depend on the number of hooks someone wants. Part of the reason we went RN instead of GN was that the GN didn't have enough hooks to suit us.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 09:25AM
I dont believe any light unlimited guys would go regional if the light class went away (not saying that should happen either). What I will say is that if the light class was gone we would probably have 10 in both Unlimited and GN Mod. I plan to run the GN Mod class again and hope guys like feiss, writsel, etc show up and support it where they can. Right now most hooks are over by my area but I'm sure that could change if numbers in the class would go up. We need more tractors and they are out there but everyone has to do what fits their own operation. I know we will not be buying screw blowers so if the light class and heavy class stayed and GN mod class left so would we. Doc is trying to put some hooks together up in Minnesota with regional rules to draw some attention to other pullers from say the twd class to jump up and run but I dont see many new tractors coming out til this screw blower thing works itself out or we can build region 3 back up. Should be a fun year but I am sure it wont be easy like usual. - Corey Kielmeyer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 30, 2020 04:03PM
Ironic,
Actually RN 2 mod numbers are pretty good. With a decent variety of types of tractors.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 30, 2020 09:24PM
I think he is referring to region 3, but it's not like region 2 has a bunch of bad ass tractors. But yes Todd region 2 has a rew good ones
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 31, 2020 07:59AM
I have no dog in this hunt but I have watched this for a long time and I don't understand why in the region and state why 3 Chevy vs 2 big hemis was gotten away from. It seems to me that at this level you could encourage others combinations allison's turbins turbo charged ag engines.you don't need 200000$ tractors to put on a region and state event. If you want to see john force raise his funny car you don't go to a local track and pay 15dollars you go to a national event. And pay 50 dollars. If you want to see a grand national show go to bowling green or TOMAH. just my opinion but the higher you raise the level of competition at lower levels of pulling the fewer vehicles will show up I think recent history shows this to be true. These private big money pull s are going to be the future for high level equipment.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 31, 2020 10:13AM
I'm trying to look ahead not in the past. I will only be running two hemis, and 3 good chevys should be able to compete with me everytime. I will agree that constant changes to 3 hemis did ultimately ruin the class up here in region 3 but obviously the promoters want it back considering there are 6 region hooks up here this year. I am gonna run them all along with the GN Mod and hope for the best. No free passes for Doc at either level. He knows we will show up guns blazin no matter what. Jack has taught me well.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 31, 2020 12:28PM
Are you putting a buddy seat on the mod for dad
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 31, 2020 01:04PM
Haha
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 02:20PM
Not according to the guys that are running screws. They claimed at the enderle meeting that 2 screws cant keep up to 3 14's. If you are the expert build a tractor and then you can have a say. Not all classes revolve around this idea that they need screw chargers because a few guys have them. Screws are the minority and roots are the majority. When there are only 3 light unlimited tractors this year we will see how good screws were for the sport.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes, To; Corey January 31, 2020 01:38PM
I see used 14`s going for $3,000-5,000 all the time. Used screws are much more! Anyway, It has already gotten out of hand as to be affordable for most mod pullers. And outlawing turbines didn`t help.....
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 01:33PM
My 2 cents would be to let screw mods run in mod class with 2 engines at GN pulls only. that would be interesting to see that works out. All the power is still no good if you can not get it hooked to the track, as in one wheeling and control problems.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 01:46PM
This was discussed at the ntpa meeting but none of the 2 screw guys said they would even be close, but they were pushing for 3 motors with some sort of restrictions.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 29, 2020 03:13PM
Just a fans POV for a moment. The two heavy mod classes seem redundant and don’t help promoters who want a mod class when unlimited is booked since they won’t book MOD and UNL in different places on the same weekend. I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t cut a class but if they did I think the 7,500 pound GN class would be the one to chop. Keep the 7,500 pound class regionally and find a way for the 7,500 LB GN guys to run in either the Light or Unlimited classes and hopefully boost numbers & hooks.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 02:09AM
I believe that the NTPA was very short sighted and lacked both vision and leadership when they decided to allow screw blowers in the Lt Unl Mod class. I don't understand how they could possibly think that this will help grow the class.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 04:43AM
Has anyone thought about the fans in the stands? Do you feel that the casual fan knows the difference in a screw blower versus roots? As a fan I don't want to watch the same tractors pull over and over in different classes. Where is the fun in that. My opinion is that the fans come to see a show and that includes distinct differences in the classes.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 05:06AM
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve never been a fan of watching the same tractor go back to the pits, throw on more weight, run next class. I mean, I get it, but fans don’t really want to see that.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 04:19PM
The only fan you speak for is you! Adding motors for the next class was always fun for me to see! Enjoyed watching Engler run with 2, 4, 5 motors with the same tractor, 5 and 7 with the other! Others as well! Watching the same SSD tractors at different weight was neat too. Hard to get the same tractor to hook well in the different weight classes. Only Engler won all 4 Mod classes in one year, that's how hard it was to do, and it was a lot of fun to watch. With the rules the way they are now it's impossible to build one tractor to compete in all the Mod classes.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 05:08AM
I believe that you just answered your own question. The fans in the stands do not know or see any difference in the class by allowing the screw blowers. They still go 320 feet. So why write rules that limit class numbers and drives up the cost of the sport. There is no gain in either. And I guess PS, DSS, OSS, does not interest you either, the same vehicles run week after week. And I would guess also that you don't want the Mods to move up to the Unlimited class either at a show.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2020 05:21AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 05:09AM
Yes, they may run week after week and that is understood but they aren't running to the same audience every show. At this point you can bring up taping it for television. OK but when I am watching it on TV you rarely see more than two classes on the same show and they seem to always mix trucks or tractors. If I am sitting in the stands watching the show I don't want to see the same tractor pulling in every class. That would be like watching wrestling and the same person was in every match. After awhile you get tired of seeing the same person/tractor compete in every class.

Something else that keeps getting brought up every so often is it doesn't matter what engine combination you are running for that class. Everyone has the same track to pull on and the same distance to shoot for. If everyone in the class went with a bigger engine what happens? The sled operator is going to make adjustments and still stop you at either 300 or 320 feet. Why spend 1,000's of dollars to go the same distance and put on the same show?
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 06:59AM
I've heard over and over on these boards how people miss the days when the Banter Bros,Tim Engler and several others would go to the pits to add engines. Back then it was exciting for people to root for these pullers to win multiple points races in one year.

One issue with the mod tractors is that without crossover there aren't enough tractors to put on a good show at some venues.

To address Dicks last comment I've been saying that people dont know what they haven't seen. In other words If people hadn't ever seen a Lt. Unlimited with screw blowers or 18-71s they wouldn't miss them. The class was putting on a pretty good show for a few years without them. I was also reminded lately that the class would just be an RN class in that configuration, sorry but I can tell you from the seat it is much faster and much more challenging to drive these tractors at 6000 lbs than at 7500 lbs. Most of the more fun rides I've had on the mod tractors was in the Lt. Unlimited class because they are fast and challenging.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 07:43AM
Exactly it is like a big mini rod with two engines the screws have more horsepower than they have weight
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 12:50PM
I always thought it was a bad idea to let screw blowers in any class, they are expensive and heavy. Still not to late to outlaw them and 18-71`s in the lite mod class for 2021. Light mod class should of been 3 chevy type w/8-71s and 2 hemis with 14`s from the get go and you would of had a healthy class by now!!
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 01:49PM
I also agree with plb if you has 2 hemis with 14-71 3 chevys with 8-71 you would have 15-20 tractors and chances are your state associations would offer the class also !
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 30, 2020 03:57PM
Nope! Not 15, not ever!
Chevy guys would want hemi's at 15% overdrive max., Mallory super mag 3 max., and rev limiters set at 7000 rpm. Get your chip when you sign in.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 08:36AM
Why not let them run half as many engines on 50% nitro methane. nothing makes the crowd come to life like the sound of nitro
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 11:04AM
I build all kinds of engines and screw blowers are cheaper and lighter. Top notch 14-71 $23,000 weight 100lbs. Screw blowers $18,000 87lbs.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 11:23AM
One of my issues with the change to Screws is that it's not just the blowers that need changed but the setback manifolds need replaced as well as many parts of the fuel system the other big one is replacing the hats. So the cost of replacing systems is much more expensive than starting from scratch. Not to mention only having 8 chances to run this setup.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 02:22PM
I suppose screw chargers belong in the mini class then
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 02:03PM
If people would actually stop working a personal agenda and look at hard numbers they would see that like Adam koester said that there is no cost difference in front runner parts. The only time there is a price difference is if you want to run a 5th to 10 place used Roots for 7500 vs a screw. Also need to realize that screws hold there resale value where a Roots blower drops 35% after you fire it the first time. Also need to figure that there is almost no annual service on a screw vs multiple restrips on a Roots blower. Other fact is that two good running screw blown engines will make the same power as 3 roots blown motors. There isn't a mod tractor running today that is all top shelf parts. Most of them have 2-5 year old technology on the blowers and heads. Same money to run 2 state of the art Noonan's or Brad motors with screws as 4 used hemis or MBR platform with roots blowers. It should be open in all three classes for blower choice but limit number of engines in the mod class based on blower choice. Other thing that needs to happen is electronic fuel injection. No reason to keep everything in the stone age of mechanical poppets and check valves when the rest of the world has been using it since the mid 80s
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Re: NTPA Mod classes January 31, 2020 03:36PM
Engine guy,
Just out of curiosity how many tractors are you running with Noonans topped with screws, not trying to be contentious but again just curious. And I'm not asking about building engines for other people's tractors. The other difference you didn't mention about there not being any cost difference is those of us that have already invested in roots blowers for 4 to 6 engines. That's not an easy fix for us,that's 100Gs some of us just dont have. Maybe that's just a sign that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing but then again those of us running Mod tractors are getting few and far between. Why do you think that is the case?

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 01, 2020 03:42AM
Maybe the classes would improve if there weren't just V-8's on every tractor. How about changing the rules to be a little more accommodating to the turbines, Allison's, radial's, etc.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 01, 2020 05:19AM
The rules were changed year before last giving more power to some turbines as well as giving the Allison's bigger blowers. We also allow the Allison's to run one engine with turbos. These rules were in place last year, if you look at the results for Waseon last summer the Top Gun tractor was in a pull off with Feissty Farmer. The rules can be changed but we can't make people step up to the new rule nor can we make them show up. If the Top Gun tractor were to run the whole RN2 circuit they would definitely be contenders.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 01, 2020 08:31AM
How long has it been since a turbine won a gn unlimited pull? One Allison making one pulloff just proves how tilted it is towards V-8's.
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 01, 2020 03:50PM
As far as the GN stuff...don't know but I sometimes wonder if the Unlimited turbines scare the powers that be after a few incidents over the years. A good running twinn Allison will hang with the Hemi's on the RN circuit if they were to run on regular basis. Brian Diekman proved that a few years ago, he didn't run the whole circuit but when he showed up he was always at the top of the class. We were running one tractor with 3 Hemi's with 8-71 blowers and one with 2 Hemi's with 14-71 blowers and Brian could run with both of them.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 02, 2020 07:58AM
Id say gardner stone would be the last turbine tractor to win championship. Just off the top of my head thinking
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Todd February 03, 2020 04:22AM
Todd. Not running any on a tractor just pointing out the hard facts of equal dollars per hp. I don't think that any amount of limiting rules will make people build more tractors. Just my opinion. There is no limit to what people will spend to win if they decide that's what they are going to do. That is not a problem unique to pulling it is a fact of life. If you want to pull in an unlimited class then that is going to take 2 with screws or 2 with 18-71s tuned up to scream. They are getting over 3000 up now in minirods. It takes big bucks in every class. Not just light unlimited
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Re: Todd February 03, 2020 05:43AM
Engine Guy,
You are correct in that the people that want to win are going to win one way or another. We have some pretty up to date engines at this point, our blowers are good but not great as I tend to buy used and I dont go for the big dollar blowers. I tend to choose blowers that are what I think are good for the money spent. We can be competitive when we're on a level playing field, I'm not at all ashamed of our engines

I would disagree with the idea that if the Lt Unlimited were a 14-71 class it wouldn't grow, I personally think that it would and would still put on a great show. Yes I understand that the rules have always allowed 18-17 and screw blowers but feel the class was just as entertaining when most of the tractors had 14-71s. The third and fourth year of the class was mostly 14-71 blowers and put on a good show and had better numbers.

S'no Farmer
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 02, 2020 10:09AM
They have been running screw blowers in the unlimited class for years. What's the big deal now?
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Re: NTPA Mod classes February 02, 2020 12:33PM
I would say that state pulling needs to get a signal v8 signal Allison an turban class going at like 5,500 lbs . Could just put a speed limit on the final drive at 60 or 70 mph that would end the arguing over what you run for engines. There needs to be a starting point seams to me there's more getting out then there is getting in to pulling.
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