Question for Doc May 18, 2020 08:09AM
I just read your post below about marketing an how to grow the publics interest, you make some valid points , but my question to you is -- do you do RFDTV for free ? Or anything else in your line of work -- NOT ONE TIME DID YOUR SAY THAT THE PULLERS THAT PUT ON THE SHOW SHOULD HAVE A BETTER RETURN -- NOT ONCE !!!!, Did you ever think that without them there'd be no pulling on RFDTV !!! Your all about NTPA be the leader an first to do everything but PPL has past them up an left them in a few short years !!! Its obvious to everyone but you !!!!

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 10:16AM
Those who pull do it as a hobby. They understand and accept that. Those who work in the sport in any job related to it should be compensated unless it is understood that the work is a volunteer job. People like Doc deserve good pay to go to events and represent the sport like they do in a professional manner. Their work puts a good face on the sport and helps promote the sport to fans and sponsors. What looks like fun and games to some is a job to others even if they love what they do. Pullers should have bigger payouts and to more pullers. The end result of that if it goes too far is pullers would spend even more money to compete when this page is full of griping about the cost to compete. Only a handful in this world know the complete story about the true cost and sacrifice to go pulling. Do you?

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 12:17PM
Apparently more than you do, been doing this for 30 plus yrs, i know we do it for the fun of it, but if the cost of fuel, entry fees, memberships, and to be competitive, which is my choice on upgrading, i GUARANTEE you doc and everyone else is making more today than they were 25 yrs ago, so why shouldn't the puller be compesated more !!!

Re: Question for Doc two days ago
Quote
?
Apparently more than you do, been doing this for 30 plus yrs, i know we do it for the fun of it, but if the cost of fuel, entry fees, memberships, and to be competitive, which is my choice on upgrading, i GUARANTEE you doc and everyone else is making more today than they were 25 yrs ago, so why shouldn't the puller be compesated more !!!

Im not making what I made 25 years ago. Not even close.
I appreciate all the event promoters that hire me for their shows. I've NEVER thought I was more to the show that any competitor. I think the puller show have more compensation and I've discuss that at a number of different posts.

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 10:34AM
First off I want to thank Doc Riley for taking the time to give his insight into the working and struggles that pulling in today's world faces. And second, in no way am I speaking for Doc or anyone else.

Everyone acts like the powers to be in pulling are just sitting around missing opportunity after opportunity to secure sponsorship and TV exposure for the sport. I think nothing could be farther from the truth. Why would any organization not want to promote their business, their bread and butter? And here’s the truth as I see it. The sport has a limited number of people that find it remotely interesting. And here are some reasons in no particular order. It’s a regional,agriculture based sport, the younger generation has lost interest in cars and trucks other than a form of transportation, the sport does not sell well on TV, there are so many other motorsport and sporting options on TV that pulling is forced to share the fans with those markets. It’s too confusing to the average fan, the shows are long and the bleachers are hard.

And that leads into the question, when I talk to people at a pull a lot of them tell me that they enjoy walking around the pits as much, if not more than the pull itself. And why, they are invariably confused by the classes and just what they are seeing on the track. To the average new fan there are really 3 classes, ones that is tractors, one that is trucks and then those that have a lot of motors. And why do some fans find the pits so interesting? The vehicles are amazing and the drivers are for the most part friendly and engaging. The workmanship and technology is second to none. However is that enough to grow the sport? We need to take off our [ I love pulling and if someone would just go to a pull they would love it like me] glasses and realize that the sport is like any other sport or hobby, you either love/like it or you couldn’t care less. Some people seem to think that every pull could/should be another Bowling Green or the NFMS, they are not, we are blessed to have those and others that have set the bar high, but unfortunately those are the exception and not the rule. And if we are really going to be truthful there is a segment of the farming community that is against pulling, for a variety of reasons. I know that this will not set well with those that think not enough is being done to bring in new fans and that one ‘’mega sponsor’’ is out there, well let me ask you, who are those new fans and sponsors and where are they? While I don’t always agree with the decisions made by the leadership of the pulling organizations however I do believe to fault them because pulling isn’t growing is hardly their fault. Sure there are things that can be done to improve the product however they, in themselves are not going be the magic that some people think is out there. So I guess it sounds like I don’t even like the sport, nothing could be farther from the truth, however I try to have a clear vision of what the sport is and what it’s potential is. So for me it’s to keep on improving the shows and writing good rules, both safety and competition.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 12:27PM
Dick i have never once seen a banner or sign that promotes this page, like someone else said on a previous post, it would make alot of sence to promote this page on TV, it would bring new eyes hopefully to the sport, ive done this by choice since the mid 80s and it just doesn't set well with me when i think how the pullers have been left behind !!!

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 11:03AM
To "Think about this" as I read your post it comes across as the ONLY ones that deserve any money are promoters and TV personalities. As a puller for 20 some yrs I know I am not alone in feeling like this is using us pullers as a way to make someone else money. ...... So why would anyone want to build anything new and continue on this path of money gone? Whats the incentive? Truth be told this would make new guys keep on going since there is no chance of a return Makes drag racing look pretty appealing............. and I used to drag race

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 12:52PM
The hobby line gets old at the GN level. How come it's a hobby for some but a profession for others? People are making a profit off of someone else's hobby and it's a crock. Don't you think the actual product deserves to make a little. Kind of funny how they always used to advertise the purse for tomah,but they don't anymore. I guess there's no point seeing that it hasn't changed in 30 years. I can only imagine the satisfaction of taking your quarter million dollar rig down the track and getting a weed whacker or a microwave as a thank you. That's gotta feel awesome. Everyone wants to know how to fix pulling. Well, you could start by actually paying the entertainment.

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 01:01PM
THANK YOU GRUBBY !!! I couldn't of said it any better !!!!!

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 01:18PM
Dont you guys love paying to get into the fair grounds Really it does feel good after a couple hour drive just to raise your hip up at the gate to get out your wallet it is refreshing.And of course we appriciate you coming Pulling is a Hobby and thats all it will ever be i hate 4 wheal drive trucks but at this time those are the guys keepng this sport allive .Why dont we have a two wheal drive diesel truck class

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 01:58PM
Somebody, maybe Bryant Lawson built a TWD Diesel a few years ago. Not sure what happened with.

S'no Farmer

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 03:04PM
Ok , I get this from both sides but without an venue and an organization to promote this stuff or hold insurance what do you have ?? Essentially nothing if I don’t hear about it I don’t come, if no one pays to advertise I don’t hear about it , are the pullers going to pay to advertise? Are the pullers going to build / rent a venue pay staff and supply equipment? Maybe they will but how will their payout look then?

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 03:23PM
So what your saying is, pullers should just pull to be pulling, FYI - pullers are the one paying for everything, thats why their payback hasnt went up, sled rentals up, insurance up, equipment to work the track up, fuel to get to the pull up, paying to get into yhe pull that your participating at-, i went a county fair several yrs ago in Wisconsin and Montgomery Gentry was the show for the night, do you honestly think they paid to get in to the fair, do you think that the promoter of the concert and fair board paid them the equivalent of a 1000 dollar tractor pull purse-- the tractor pull was the following night, stands were packed both nights, if i was betting, id say Montgomery Gentry made huge !!!

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 03:39PM
I’ve said it before , if you are pulling to make money and using it as a business, you’re in the wrong sport, you expect to get paid top dollar but forget about every one else’s expense, fairs don’t happen for free, the lights don’t stay on for free , insurance isn’t free nor is equipment rental, port o pots,staff,hotels,grounds keeping,utilities, permits,vendors,scouting for sponsors,websites, advertising etc etc etc I could go on and on sure the competitors put on the show, but without a place to do it nothing happens and we are finding that out this season, you could have a pull at your farm sure but who will pay you? In the world of hobbies , some money is better than no money .

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 12:37AM
Dick i don't know where to get the money, but i do know that the cost of EVERYTHING has went up except the payback to the pullers, ive been doing this since the mid eighties and unless you've done this you have know idea what the cost has been ( done this on my own free will ), unless someone is born into a family that is already pulling, it could be very difficult for a young person to get into the sport, -- my whole point was that Doc keeps talking about how NTPA is the first to do everything and everyone else has followed their lead but he doesn't hardly ever if ever says anything about taking care of the pullers, its always about how great NTPA is, and their just not -- alot of diehard NTPA has left and went to PPL --- the RFDTV show doesn't compare to the LUCAS OIL PRO PULLING thats on MAVTV !!! I don't know the solution but i quarantee Doc's had a raise in the last 25yrs!!!

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 01:19AM
To Those Who Have Been Around Along Time

1. WPI/NTPA is no longer the leader. Yes at one time they were. As of today their leadership has failed miserably and pullers are also to blame for that leadership

2. No planning, no effort of improvement or desire to be better. The thought is we are WPI/NTPA and we already do it better than everybody else.Just because you have 50 some years of history does not qualify you as the leader.

3. Pullers are not asking to be NASCAR, NHRA or any other Motorsport , they at least want to cover there costs to pull. Not cover the cost of the build, it is a given that will not happen.

4. The old standard of set by WPI/NTPA to not pay the full purse, as there was not enough in the class to pay all places and is given back to the promoter is BS. Pay the purse in total. That is one way of getting more money to the puller. It is a fix cost to the promoter same as the build is a fix cost for the puller.

5. Control the product. Less is more and quality is far better than quantity.

6. A large majority of pullers have stepped up there professionalism, Cannot say that of WPI/NTPA

7. There is not a leading organization in pulling today. PPL started by taking from NTPA. Yes they have improved their purse over WPI/NTPA but they are not leading anything either.

Re: Question for Doc yesterday, 01:59AM
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?
Dick i don't know where to get the money, but i do know that the cost of EVERYTHING has went up except the payback to the pullers, ive been doing this since the mid eighties and unless you've done this you have know idea what the cost has been ( done this on my own free will ), unless someone is born into a family that is already pulling, it could be very difficult for a young person to get into the sport, -- my whole point was that Doc keeps talking about how NTPA is the first to do everything and everyone else has followed their lead but he doesn't hardly ever if ever says anything about taking care of the pullers, its always about how great NTPA is, and their just not -- alot of diehard NTPA has left and went to PPL --- the RFDTV show doesn't compare to the LUCAS OIL PRO PULLING thats on MAVTV !!! I don't know the solution but i quarantee Doc's had a raise in the last 25yrs!!!

?--Yes pullers should get money, more money. Your right their are the show. NTPA was the first to do almost all things in pulling because they have been around for 50 plus years? No one else is event close. No one else even cared about pullers. ATPA....nope, TNT/RED Man....nope.
I know the cost of being in motorsports, I've been a reporter since 1984. I've interviewed almost every manufacturer in the speed or automotive enthusiast market. It's no different if you are Lucas Oil Late Model, Lucas oil Off road, Summit Drag Racing, PDRA, NHRA or any other Membership backed group. It all costs more and racers get hosed.

Lot of Diehard....guess if they leave they really aint'. Happens every year. Hamburg, NY--NTPA, NOT, NTPA, SOMEONE Else, Now? PPL so much better, event some much better. Really a 3,000 spectator event is BETTER than BG, TOMAH?

The Simon Sez team has evidently made a radical shift in where they are going to pull. That's great and I do wish them the best of luck. Their Pull at 300 Raceway would be a bucket list for me. Will there six? TWD's make a difference in NTPA events? Yes in some venues it will have an impact in just event numbers, maybe event hurt some events. But, will it hurt BG? six less twds in a class of 60? I truly do wish Roger and his family the very best. Does PPL have an event where they are more than 20 in a class?

RFD TV and MAV TV both have great reach and are solid TV vehicles. Number one request from pulling fans who watch RFD TV....pull more pullers on! That would take an hour long show....which in my opinion is what needs to be done to take PULLING to the next level.

yes, I have received a raise at some events. Some events I do at cost. Pullers have had a raise in the past 30 years. Wish someone would just get an old 1990's rule book and the current model and look at the back pages in each and see the purse pay out for the diffferent NTPA divisions and classes. Pullers don't pay anyone more at RACETRACKS like we used to. What a pain, giving that Promoter an additional 25 bucks pit pass. Sometimes NTPA reimbursed pullers for those gate fees, back in the day. Racetracks live on backgate, it's the gravy, buybacks in drag racing sweet gravy as well.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 12:58AM
Dick do you think Montgomery Gentry doesn't have people he has to pay, it cost alot for him ( them ) back then to put on a show just like it cost to put on a pull, ( several people involved ) big pulls like Tomah or Bowling Green's purse could pay way better than they do with the crowds that go to them but their purse wont be much more than a state or regional event- some but not much -- you say Montgomery Gentry gets all the money , i highly doubt that, he pays alot of people for a show and still makes alot !!!

Re: Question for Doc yesterday, 02:16AM
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Dick do you think Montgomery Gentry doesn't have people he has to pay, it cost alot for him ( them ) back then to put on a show just like it cost to put on a pull, ( several people involved ) big pulls like Tomah or Bowling Green's purse could pay way better than they do with the crowds that go to them but their purse wont be much more than a state or regional event- some but not much -- you say Montgomery Gentry gets all the money , i highly doubt that, he pays alot of people for a show and still makes alot !!!

Montomery Gentry would cost roughly 250,000 to hire for your fair.
Stage 25k
Stage hands 10k
security--15k (tour security, local provided by fair)
Promoter cost--advertising, insurance, marketing split
MERCH-local sellers, maybe split to fair--probably not-
BEER/Concessions--fair
GATE--fair to pay MG,
We don't know MG's split? NTPA 100k purse, plus to put on an event. Who make the money?

Re: Question for Doc May 18, 2020 11:49PM
Dear ?. You are forgetting one thing here. When you say that Montgomery Gentry made huge. He is one person that gets paid all the money. However in pulling that amount of money is split 50 different ways. And I'm sure that if you went to your local fair board and talked to them they would agree. They would think it's easier to have a concert than a pull, why bother with pulling? And once again WHERE do you think the big pulling payout will come from. You keep saying "pay the pullers more" but you never say how. Are you suggesting charging the fans more money, or only paying the winner in each class, maybe not pay the sled operator. Where is this money coming from?



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2020 12:10AM by Dick Morgan.

Money, Money, Money! May 19, 2020 01:36AM
I dont even know where to start!
First I guess one of the things that I keep hearing as stated in this thread as well as many other threads, various people keep making the statement "The Pullers are the ones putting on the show" my response is, how self centered is a person who thinks they do it all? To those who make these claims, I ask you, do the pullers pay for the promotion and take out of their own pockets to cover all the rest of the expenses related to "Actually Putting On The Pull , or The Show" as some state? I will say that the pullers are a very important part of the over all show! But to say the pullers are the ones solely putting on the show , and to think that because of the pullers solely, we have a tractor pull, is just plain crazy! I say as a puller, it is a privilege to be able to compete at an event! Yes we have thousands and thousands of dollars invested into our pulling vehicles, but that is the price we pay to be competitive in a sport that we TRULY APPRECIATE AND ENJOY!!! Yes it is nice to get a good payout, and by that I mean enough to over our costs associated with getting to the pull and back home as well as coverage of gate admission and entry fee. I consider it a BONUS, if we get enough go cover dinner at a nice sit down restaurant with the family and friends on our way back home! I know some people think this is ridiculous, however it is a BLESSING to me if these expenses are covered from payback. To those who think the promoter should give away the farm, I say to you, get out of the sport!!! You are either a greedy individual, or you are in over your head and do not have the monetary resources to afford your habits without placing you in a financial bind, and are expecting paybacks to fund your habit! Either way, you should get out of the sport, and or get into something that doesn't put you in such a situation. Before anyone wants to criticize me, I have pulled for as little as ZERO DOLLARS! Some of the best times we've had was when we pulled for no payback, only bragging rights! I have pulled to win anywhere from 0 to 20 to as much as over 1400 dollars. Again, yes it's nice to get a bonus, however PAYOUT MONEY IS NOT THE REASON WE PULL!! It's just a nice perk that I am Thankful to receive.
Second, It seems to me that some people are hell bent on putting down the NTPA, and Lifting up the PPL. Nobody I know that competes in either organization that has a gun to their head forcing them to pull in a given organization! If you dont like the way an organization is operating, then DONT BE A PART OF SAID ORGANIZATION! DONT TRY TO PUT THEM DOWN AND TRY TO BRING MORE UNNECESSARY DRAMA TO THE SPORT! Again, I say get out of the sport, or find an organization that fits your fancy. I do not understand why anyone who TRULY LOVES AND APPRECIATES THE SPORT, would bad mouth any organization that is promoting the sport! It makes no sense! I guess you just cant fix Stupidity and GREED!!
I guess that is all that's on my mind! Take care, support and promote our sport, May God Bless the USA!

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 01:51AM
No matter which way you present it, once a sponsor (non-contingency especially) learns that their dollars doesn't even make it to the puller, that usually ruins the entire deal. I've talked to the owner of Power Service Products and why they left WPI...They simply got fed up with being treated so poorly. Ask any past sponsor and you will hear the same story. They don't get the exposure they were paying for.

There was an event in the late-80s, (forget where at in Ohio), but I do remember the drivers meeting. Every puller was pretty upset with Dave S and how they were going to restructure some classes with some pretty deep cuts to payout. Almost every tractor was left on their trailers still chained down. I can distinctly remember Dave saying that he didn't care if you pulled. He was going to get paid regardless, and that he had contracts with all of the sponsors and they would be forced to go with him no matter what since he had the contracts in his hand. He kept saying how all of the pullers had nowhere to go pull but with him.

What should've happened that day was nobody unload. The pullers did pull that night, but only for the fans. And several potential sponsors that were looking to working with WPI went elsewhere. It was a rather sad day for the sport as a whole. From then on my uncle told me that tractor pulling would get stale in a hurry, and he was right.

Simply put, there's way too many hands in the WPI cookie jar. The puller is always left with the crumbs and is forced to accept that.

Change does need to happen within WPI or they will proudly ride their ship under the waves. From the outside looking in, their ship is already taking on water. Look at HSTPA for example. Rather than even try to save it, they have all but abandoned it.

This isn't to say that PPL does have their share of sponsorship troubles as well. But their problems aren't due to a lack of performance or care to the puller. It's usually the sponsor moving their monies around within the Team Lucas model to best suite their demographic.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 02:01AM
Thanks, i agree completely, id heard about that happening !!

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 02:44AM
This a reply to Doc from the previous column. So why did Lucas Oil Purchase or create or whatever the correct terminology is the PPL? A multi Billion dollar corp had interest in Pulling! As does others, if there is marketing value through that TV series and Magazine. Not to say sell NTPA or anything of that nature, but yes there are other huge corporations out there with interest. But they play in the Big League they want a top TV show to associate their brand with. You are already dealing with multiple companies that could well be your Deals, Case IH, GM, you telling me they are not interested in major sports network deals they advertise on most of them daily now least GM does? You cant go into the board rooms of major Corps and be perceived as a Minor League Deal and come out with a Major League package. And I say this because been there done that! Me, Mr. Wayne Hunt, Jay Fuqua, and Andy Teasley did marketing for MSPA, and volunteer group raised a major amount of money for that group, went to many meetings with Companies and yes got told No a bunch, but also heard from a few, Deal not big enough for Us. We got very close to signing a deal with your past Employer Masters Entertainment Group for a TV deal, but the MSPA board got cold feet on spending $50K for the shows. RFD is awesome, they are located right on Music Row in Nashville, been there, been on the set and advertised our Pull for Springfield Tennessee there, great folks down home real folks loved it! Couldn't they help open some doors to the Multi Billions of dollars flowing on the street they are Headquartered on? If you build it they will come! But the bait you cast out determines the deal you reel in! I'm in no way bashing anyone, I love the NTPA, You Doc are great, you were the one we wanted so bad to Host the MSPA shows, Greg Randall great Guy, hard working no doubt Loves the sport, RFD great, The NTPA series itself, great competitors, great events! What bothers me, is the untapped potential. Mr. Billy Joe Miles saw potential in Me to build what he did all over again, we had multiple meetings in my office about it, he introduced Us to multiple heavy hitter sponsors that would come on board. But it wasn't me, I'm a designer and builder of Pulling Vehicles but also machinery for multiple Industries and had a Business that needed me. Kinda wonder now if I made the right decision! What he was showing Me was, we would have to create a New Org to do what he had done in past, because he knew it needed one person at the top making the decisions with the Vision ,He and I both had of where it could go. Pullers could be on boards that submitted suggestions for Rule changes etc, but in the final one person the head of the Org had to make the best decision that would promote the Org and add to its marketing ability. By doing so, this would allow a large revenue stream for Promoting Events, Buying TV Deals, etc etc and Yes paying the Pullers a greater Purse, and dropping down Sponsor Deals to teams inside the Series, sound Familiar? It can be done, and anyone saying it cant lacks the vision to get it done!

BB

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 02:44AM
Lets take a couple different approaches to the question. One, is your complaint with David P. or with the current leadership of the NTPA or with the NTPA in general? Two, what is the role of the NTPA [we are only discussing the NTPA for this thread] in pulling. Are they there to represent the pullers, or is it the promoters, or do they represent the fans? What is really their role? Or are they in business to put all three together to put on a pull, to write safety and competition rules? People sound like the NTPA is just there for the pullers. But the NTPA is not the pullers union. If the pullers want representation then form a "pullers" association. I do agree that the NTPA, at times does appear to treat the pullers as subcontractors and not partners and this could be improved. However the role of the NTPA is to keep all the moving parts in place to put on a show.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 03:00AM
Those shows in the '80s had tractor pulling and a couple of monster trucks. Monster trucks stole all of the young fans that pulling does not have. Kids have monster truck t-shirts toys cartoons pulling has none of that.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 04:33AM
I have read a lot of this thread and I know most who know me know that where I have stood in pulling for many years. I have no involvement these days so my opinion or direction could be obscured. To me if you are going to build something its got to start internally with your team that you assemble. You have to create a really good vision, a solid set of core values and standards that the team must live by no matter how hard things get. You have to remind the team everyday who you work for and why you show up everyday to the office, constantly remind them so their vision doesn't get blinded. Our goal is build the NTPA into the largest pulling organizations that has some of the best classes, pullers, sleds, venues, and fan base in the business today. We will accomplish this by hiring like minded people that believe in our mission that will stay true to our core values that the NTPA has set. The product that we produce will not be in second place or third place in the pulling world, but rather the National leader in rules, classes, Television and social media. We will not waiver, budge or bend for anything that compromises our mission or core values going forward no matter what the risk or reward. The people that make up our organization are the most important part of our survival. I believe our product will return to the top and in a very short time. We will not lose site of our goal to return to the top and we will do it in a professional way that represents all the pullers, promoters and fans of this great sport well. It wont be easy and it wont be what everyone will want at times. At the end though the product that we produce will be better then it is today not because that is our goal or mission but because of the people that we meet along the way that join us on our journey to regain prominence in the spot of pulling once again. We have some of the best pulls, pullers, rules and standards in pulling however, like everything its always changing therefore we must be willing to change and adapt to those changes. Our base is very strong, our future is very bright, we are ready to role! Our competition is good, but we will a heck of a lot better. The time is now.. Thought I would change it up a little. Lol

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 05:01AM
Let's just say. Instead of waiting to see if pulling happens or if some pulling happens,Pullers just decide not to show up for any pulls this year and see who survives. PPL ?? WPI/NTPA ??, Outaw ??. Who survives??

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 05:17AM
I frequent this forum almost daily and one thing that is constant is someone always complaining the pullers don't receive enough money. Most people on here seem to be well educated and are able to converse intelligently so I have to ask this question. Where does the money for higher payouts come from? Are you suggesting some people take a reduction in their pay or benefits? Or do you feel that the fee structure needs to be adjusted?

My thoughts are that most competitors don't understand what little margins promoters work with or what the total costs are to put on a competition. There are times when it is not known for weeks or even months if you made a profit or lost money. Also some promoters are paid a set fee to put on the show. From it they are responsible for all expenses in the pulling area and there are way more expenses than just paying purse money.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 12:50PM
@300ft Puller

You sure typed a lot without saying much.

A lot of corporate buzzwords, phrases, and doublespeak.

Eye Rolling

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 05:37AM
Without a doubt, the WPI board is to blame for steering WPI down the rabbit hole. The current NTPA leadership did not fall far enough from the tree to get them out of that hole either. Throw in the addition of how poorly some classes are designed, and the tech services part of NTPA is also to blame.

However, you can't hold all of this against WPI. Other racing groups, NASCAR, WoO, NHRA, etc. have all had their haters and downsides through the years.

All of the fore-mentioned groups made leadership changes, worked with outside marketing/hospitality groups, and at least attempted to change their image with their racers and fans. Can we say that same for NTPA?

If I were to own a media company like some do in pulling, I would think that you would be the first one that would recognize where the faults are when it comes to NTPA's lack of media. You can't just point a finger around the TV production studio and blame each other. You all need to realize that you are in charge of what media comes out of NTPA.

If I were in y'all's shoes, someone would tell me to get to work and fix it or they would find someone else that can do the job. When it comes to the TV programs, I would also like to see is some of the younger pullers do the commentating.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 12:39PM
WPI board still consist of ONE EMPEROR, David P. Schrier. The rest of the so called board members haven't a clue as to what's happening nor do they have any input as to the decisions that are made.

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 02:11PM
Sounds like you guys need to call the board members to get on pull off and read some of this or go on strike

Re: Question for Doc May 19, 2020 03:16PM
Lewis, I say we call in the ex president to testify! Oh wait a minute, for gosh sake we cant do that! Our Congress and Senate says so. If you were a ex President, that exempts you from the law of the land! So feel free to do as you please! Just kidding. I think some adjustments are in order, just don't know where to start.

Re: Question for Doc May 20, 2020 03:32AM
There is one board member that I have personally talked to that knows exactly what's going on and is looking for change, but the rest of the board isn't willing.



Brent Yaron
Hooked Up Pulling Productions
http://hookeduppullingproductions.com
hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com

Re: Question for Doc May 20, 2020 07:44AM
30 plus yrs of 1 person rule is not good for any org.pullers will never get more money till the org has to pay them.that started 40 yrs ago announcers always commented on what a vehicle cost to buil,what a motor cost,what a blower belt cost...blag blah blah,I've never heard a announcer in 45 yrs of attending pulls comment on what a puller wins in dollar value,hell in the early 70s in the puller mag there was adds for pulls listing what the payout was,some paid between 1000-1500 to win way back then,its in print,wish someone could post a pic of the adds.i kinda think pulling in general will never grow,we have a regional sport with less tractor interest daily,and we have nothing to brag about to the common motorsports fan..were taking a year off and instead of regrouping were just digging the hole deeper..

Re: Question for Doc May 20, 2020 11:42AM
You are correct, he's the only one that sees the problems and gives a dam about trying to correct them. The rest of the board, if you can call them such, knows Emperor Schrier has plans to can his ass at the next stockholders meeting, whenever that may be,and replace him with another one of his hand picked yes men (DQ).

Re: Question for Doc two days ago
Quote
KBacker
To "Think about this" as I read your post it comes across as the ONLY ones that deserve any money are promoters and TV personalities. As a puller for 20 some yrs I know I am not alone in feeling like this is using us pullers as a way to make someone else money. ...... So why would anyone want to build anything new and continue on this path of money gone? Whats the incentive? Truth be told this would make new guys keep on going since there is no chance of a return Makes drag racing look pretty appealing............. and I used to drag race[/quote

So I'm using the puller to make money? Does Crower clutches or CENPECO or GALOT MOTORSPORT park use pullers? Back in the day the only FULL TIME puller in the sport was Dr. Wayne Rausch, with two trucks! He was retired and pulled almost every month. Why? Because he liked the sport, he could make a little money and he was happy. Drag racing is gonna make up money? Why did you leave if you could make money in straight line racing? Not being a DICK just wanna know,

Re: Question for Doc two days ago
Well my jump from drag racing to pulling was a result of a CDL. My "racer" was street legal"ish" (I actually still have it) and me being me I would find myself driving it on the streets.. Well I was smart enough to know it was gonna cost me my CDL and therefore my livelyhood. So as a farm kid that moved to town I went to tractor pulling to still get the "rush" I wish I could post the pic of flyers Ive seen for payouts for drag races.. YES you still have to go rounds to win the big money BUT round wins pay money too. I could have a sweet super comp car for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy less money than I have in my current puller and its worse for the new one I'm building. My current hauler would absolutely work for drag racing even if I chose to run a dragster.

Thoughts on DPS legacy May 19, 2020 03:05PM
Several thoughts inspired by someone referring to DPS:

Pre-DPS- I'm not positive on the year he took over NTPA, and the organization did have some good sponsors in the Pre-DPS years including Wrangler, but based on things I've read, the leadership at that time had no clue how to properly service a corporate sponsor. I believe Wrangler was Pre-Dave????, and the Copenhagen/Skoal deal was began under his leadership. Please correct if this is wrong.

Winston sponsored NASCAR and NHRA, other tobacco companies sponsored individual teams (John Hileman/Levi Garrett; Jim Brockmann/Kodiak). We can thank Bill Clinton for strong-arming the tobacco companies into the 90's deal that which ended corporate sponsorships. NASCAR has gone downhill, NHRA has still never found a good long-term sponsor that lasts more than a few years, and in our little world, NTPA definitely took a hit.

For example, around 1990ish NTPA published the year end payouts in Puller Magazine, and I believe the Unlimited GN Champion Payout was $20,000 in 1990 dollars when Copenhagen/Skoal was the sponsor. Losing Copenhagen/Skoal was not the fault of DPS any more than losing Winston from NASCAR was the fault of the France family. That was due to politicians.

Where I do find fault with DPS leadership is either A) he lacked a vision of what NTPA could become, or B ) he had a vision but lacked the management/leadership skills to realize that vision, or C) for whatever reason, he was unable or unwilling to recognize his limitations and address them, and as a result, NTPA lost member states and pullers to other organizations, and sponsors tended to be short-term contingency sponsors. Has there been an actual series sponsor since the early 1990s?

To use an analogy, DPS kept the bills paid and lights on in a small regional chain of restaurants, but never realized his small regional chain of restaurants could have been a national chain had certain things been prioritized and implemented. Considering at one time, NTPA had member states from New England to California, and even in Canada, one could say it had been a national chain.

A leader can have flaws, but with humility or insight, can hire people to excel in areas where he/she lacks knowledge or skill. I don't necessarily feel like DPS was a bad businessman. He can forget 90% of his pulling knowledge and will still know more about the sport than I ever will, but I feel his ultimate legacy is one of underachievement.

I feel like NTPA settled for crumbs when they could have had cake. DPS saved NTPA from bankruptcy and it survived, but once the Copenhagen/Skoal deal went away, it never thrived again.

If anyone feels like this is an unfair critique or there are factors not taken into account, feel free to chime in.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2020 03:12PM by The Original Michael.

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 01:52AM
Did DPS save NTPA ? Im not sure about that, im pretty sure some PULLERS stepped up an bought into it !!! If thats the case, then no he didn't some pullers did !!! As far as DPS an his legacy, i think all the comments about how NTPA has fallen by the wayside to PPL says plenty, JMO

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 02:54AM
You are correct ? It was the pullers that bought shares to keep the NTPA up and running. David P did manage to gain control of enough shares through proxy to have control of the organization. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is the debate.

S'no Farmer

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 03:28AM
What what promises were made to get those votes??

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 04:48AM
First, I will say that "think about this" and "long time puller" post above is 'spot on', 'big 10-4', I 'second the motion'. Just start naming what hobbies are truly a money maker.

DPS, a JD SS puller and already a GN champion, at the time of NTPA's huge financial bust in the mid '80's, is the one that devised the plan to try to keep NTPA afloat.
And from that time, he spearheaded the effort. And yes, that included limiting each puller's financial investment to a maximum of 2 shares, valued at $5000 each.

There were many pullers that bought 1 share or 2 shares or a group of local pullers would pool together (like a $1000 each) to buy one share or a NTPA chartered member state organization. True, no dividends have ever been paid on that investment. Try to buy that stock today. It literally is not available. And if it is, then there is a waiting list, I'm told by a former WPI member, of people willing to buy a share and WPI is very selective who does buy the stock. I have interviewed many of the "Legends" pullers that still own these shares.

NTPA had a pile of debts to pay. DPS personally informed me, they all got paid in time. Personally, it took almost 2 years for me to receive what they owed me, which was not a lot, compared to the overall huge company debt. I was patient in waiting for it. And appreciated being paid for my contributions to "the PULLER".

Perhaps it is high time that you 'whiners' start having appreciation for DPS and still having NTPA here today. If NTPA was not here today, you certainly would have a much smaller market to strut your high performance pulling vehicle. And probably at a lower purse scale. Did DPS make mistakes? Probably. Is he human? Of course. Have each of you 'whiners' ever made mistakes? If not, be the first to cast a stone. It is pretty easy for any human to make mistakes.

Meanwhile, where are the 'whiner' suggestions of how to improve the NTPA organization? After all, there is a recent long thread strictly about such. Only 2 contributors suggested some valid suggestions. And maybe some of those things have been and/or still are in practice. It really is too bad that no WPI member participates here on pulloff.com., to provide education and PR to help us better understand the workings and what is happening within the organization. We have only 1 NTPA board member that does participate here.

As far as purse, pull out your old rulebooks and convince me that there has not been any purse increases over the decades.

Well, once again, post is longer than I expected. I gotta get some productive work accomplished..

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 05:17AM
Again, who in their right mind would want to own a share in a company that doesn't pay back? "Just to say that you own a share of NTPA." Tell a puller or a fan that you own a share in NTPA and they could care less.

If NTPA would've folded, I'm fairly confident that whatever pulling club came out of the woodwork wouldn't be any worse than what we have today. In many ways we all might have been better off.

After the Wrangler Jeans ordeal, I lost all faith in the face of NTPA actually wanting to help the sport. The puller was just a pawn in the scheme.

And several guys on here have credited NTPA with getting the tobacco sponsorships. Not sure if any of you noticed but the tobacco companies were putting their name on everything under the sun. From a stock car, to row boat racing they would literally put their logo on anything. As long as you called the Skoal office, you were bound to get a deal of some kind.

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 06:53AM
The reason none of the stock holders get on here is their to embarrassed to, why in the world you guys keep making excuses for DPS is beyond me, the proof an truth is there, --- buy stock in something and never get a return-- how can anyone argue that but some of you will, PLAIN AN SIMPLE -- DPS thought of DPS before anything or anyone --- open your eyes !!!

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 07:57AM
Don't hundreds of thousands of Green Bay Packer fans own stock that is worthless? I'm pretty sure they buy it at $250-$300 a share and it's worth literally nothing.

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 20, 2020 11:14AM
I would say that most people that bought shares weren't looking at it as an investment, they were trying to save an organization that they loved and wanted to continue. They were doing the same thing us pullers do every year...spending money to do this thing we enjoy and are willing to spend our money on.

S'no Farmer

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 21, 2020 06:19AM
Some replies and additional info;

First, I make my living in the event business, consulting, announcer, security, etc.
I joined the NTPA as an employee in 1990. I worked for DPS, who by the way is retired.
I have never said that pullers shouldn't get more for their efforts. That's, quite frankly a ignorant assertion. I have pitched NTPA sponsorship and represented this sport ALL over the motorsports/automotive industry. So yes, I have received money from pulling.
I will remind everyone that NTPA is a membership association. The vast percentage of the money that comes in goes back into the membership.
Rule books post NTPA purses and to my recollection always has. OR at the NTPA national banquet weekend. So pretty much anyone, like Dave Dann, can look up the info.
Yes, pulling purse needs to be increased 13 sponsors at 50 grand apiece gets every class a lot more money, but you gottta finish near the top. Used to pay 16 places, till less vehicles showed up in class.
If memory services me correct, yes Wrangler was PRE DPS-WPI, UST was all WPI/DPS. Again, he's retired.
Everything runs in a cycle. Events come and go and re-sanction with groups they used to sanction with. Pullers cross over to PPL and back. Still don't know why people try and rate the pulling groups. They have there own schedules and rules.
PPL's formation out of ATPA saved a strong branch of the sport. I produced ESPN / Outdoor Channel shows in 2007 for PPL and truly enjoyed that season. Lots of great friends over the years.
Sponsors have been pitched and everything is on hold for many events. Again 50 grand gets you a great package--best deal in motor sports. Rural America's Favorite
motorsport on Rural America's most Important Network, RFDTV.

Thanks to Dick Morgan and Sno Farmer couldn't have said it better. Lets hope somewhere we can drop the chain, cuz BG ain't long enough for every puller problem to be fixed.

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 21, 2020 09:01AM
Copenhagen/Skoal was pretty much Connie Klug’s doing. DPS isn’t a bad guy, he just wasn’t talented enough to sell people on much. It takes a dynamic person with vision to market an entity like pulling to the media and corporate world, Dave was never going to be that guy. Basically any momentum pulling had coming out of the 70’s and 80’s when purses were pretty much triple what they are now inflation adjusted has been squandered. The NTPA now has a revenue structure that favors quantity over quality. If pulling is ever to have a professional level (it could have) it definitely will not be a WPI/NTPA venture.

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy yesterday, 01:38AM
Quote
Old Guy
Copenhagen/Skoal was pretty much Connie Klug’s doing. DPS isn’t a bad guy, he just wasn’t talented enough to sell people on much. It takes a dynamic person with vision to market an entity like pulling to the media and corporate world, Dave was never going to be that guy. Basically any momentum pulling had coming out of the 70’s and 80’s when purses were pretty much triple what they are now inflation adjusted has been squandered. The NTPA now has a revenue structure that favors quantity over quality. If pulling is ever to have a professional level (it could have) it definitely will not be a WPI/NTPA venture.

UST was a great sponsor they were in a way like lucas oil and provided everything a sanctioning body would need. OLD GUY clear up the Wrangler leaving. I've always heard an NTPA Board member refused free Wrangler wear and said "no one is gonna tell me what to wear". There was also an ag related BIG national company who said he was at an event and one guy was putting up the signs, while another was taking em down. A think a co-promoted show?

The NTPA revenue structure has always been the same membership program, assisted by sponsorship and for anyone who wants to pull. The NTPA is a solid financial good midwestern value. DPS and I were on opposite ends of the fence over the continuation of TV on ESPN. We had not enough money to get it done. Roughly 10 grand AN EPISODE. I think Chevy, Kendall, had cut back and DPS knew way before anyone regarding UST ending it's program. But DPS was right, good midwestern solid decision to keep the membership side afloat. At that time there was a lot of flux in the market, SCCA lost TIDE. And they re structured. We didn't want to have to do that, it would have effected the membership.

The IDEA that NTPA had all this money and DPS squandered or took this big salary is laughable. The bulk of incoming money goes to the puller.

WPI could indeed change the sport for the money. Cut membership by not having any thing but GRAND National events--would cut printing of rule book, no PULLER MAG, One set of operational crew--couple of tech, flag men, lazer/different measurement, etc. No additional insurance to cover pullers, event/promoter liability only

PAY NO PURSE--the promoter would be WPI. PAY only 10 places at end of season for 13 classes. Only 130 pullers are worthy of any money. But raise that money to BIG dollars--50 grand to win--10 grand for 10th place.

OLD GUY--didn't a couple of groups try that in the olden times?

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 21, 2020 02:19PM
Retired my ass!

Re: Thoughts on DPS legacy May 21, 2020 02:32PM
He's involved as much as he ever was !!!

Re: Question for Doc May 26, 2020 06:12PM
Everybody keeps going on about how this sport doesn't pay well, the sponsors are not here, the.sport is getting old, no new fans and pullers are coming in, etc. What everybody needs to realize lo like most people on this topic said is that this is a HOBBY! Most working, middle class Americans use this sport as a time to get away from work, stress and other crappy things in life. This doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of blood, sweat, tears, hard work, and a little bit of elbow grease. It means that we love the sport that we can enjoy every year and nobody can take that away from us. Things could and do need to improve, but as a family of pullers we do this not for the money but for the people, the fans, the entertainment, and the awesome summer nights. I have a sign at home that says, "we do 300 ft with big TRACTOR power, we do wheelies, we do late nights and county fairs, we do dirt tracks because we do tractor pulls! I would much rather have the people we have now than someone trying to come in and change everything. This is OUR SPORT, and if we want it to improve and change, then we need to get up off our lazy butts and get something done. THANK You!

Re: Question for Doc two days ago
A reply to ?:
First I put my name and email address on every post on this site.
I think it's funny that we can't UNMASK the poster ?.

but my question to you is -- do you do RFDTV for free ? Or anything else in your line of work --

No, I get paid to host NTPA Championship pulling on RFD TV. I charge the producers of the program a fee per voice-over session. I give NTPA Championship pulling an incredible, way below market value/ national average for hosting fee. Announcing and event management fees are custom to each event.
Please take into consideration that in 2020, several GN events did not return after their first year was washed out. Also one event downgraded from GN event to state level or possibly lower. Several events were cancelled because of Covid-19. At this point I have no income from pulling. May 29th

Quote
?
NOT ONE TIME DID YOUR SAY THAT THE PULLERS THAT PUT ON THE SHOW SHOULD HAVE A BETTER RETURN -- NOT ONCE !!!!, Did you ever think that without them there'd be no pulling on RFDTV !!!
--Thanks for stating what most of the posters on this site all ready are aware of, that pullers/racers always deserve more money. And over the years the purse has been raised. Additionally, NTPA and it's events use a posted purse. Think Tomah got away from posting all of the purse amounts was because it was all ready available to anyone who wanted to know, via the NTPA Rule book.

Quote
?
Your all about NTPA be the leader an first to do everything but PPL has past them up an left them in a few short years !!! Its obvious to everyone but you !!!!
No one can seem to tell me ppl passing up NTPA? In crowd size? Nope, number of events? No. Number of pullers? nope. Long standing in motorsport inidustry? --Take USHRA, TNT, ATPA, BOB and add all their years in business and...nope. TV MARKET REACH--about the same per episode. MAVTV universe is smaller than RFD TV. Viewership is about the same per "show" on CBS Sports Network and RFD TV. Still hoping to drop the hook a couple of times this year.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was two days ago by Jake Morgan.

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