12:10:04am, Sunday, May 19, 2024
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Cheating a dyno
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Wow
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A person with very little skill or knowledge can get around a dyno in about 3 seconds. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:03PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Puller 8
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Not if I were operating the dyno you wouldn't !! If rated engine rpms and pto rpms are not in line to where they should be. Then you have a pto clutch slipping. Which would not be acceptable. All tests would be tested at either 540 or 1000 rpms Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:03PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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plum krazy
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Yes to thee above, only in a perfect world,----,we have pulls being discontinued all the time because of lack of help and people not willing to volunteer to be abused by many on the set rules, someone to watch the scale is very difficult, let alone dyno, check, waste time, hassles, beg, borrow and try to get everyone to play safe and fair, dynos have been abandoned yrs ago by most clubs and venues due to many issues.Days of many farm based people are gone, not many smaller type tractors that want to pull 6-8 mph, several Midwest states have classes that allow any combination and keep the limit to 8 mph,but allow any engine and 3000 rpm,----- dynoing 20 tractors would be a nightmare and most are removed,-not happening,people want power, speed, lightweight and rpms. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:04PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
I've dynoed enough tractors at this point to know when i've got one hooked to my dyno w/ a bad clutch.
Last one with a bad pto clutch was a 1466. Pto speed wouldn't hold at 1000 and the eng. rpm wasn't dropping at all.. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:04PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Wow again
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Yes, even in your make believe world where you know everything I will still beat the dyno. It has nothing to do with clutches. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:04PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Mind telling us all how you'd cheat a dyno and it's operator, who knows what he's doing, (since your admitting your a cheater) ? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:05PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Wow
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Pass. I'm sure someone will chime in with how they've done it. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:04PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
A dyno that's calibrated and an operator that knows what to look for and checking power at every 100 rpm drop on the pto shaft down to, say 70% or 60% from 1000 rpms, will catch things and if eng. rpms are checked, how can one cheat ?
And yes, I'm aware of trick throttles and such, but if the engine rpms are logged during the pull, again how does one cheat at that point or on the dyno ??? I'm not trying to be smart, but I'm waiting . for a response. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:05PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Beating the dyno is easy especially with diesels. We used to pull and get dyno tested for years in se mn. Turn the rpms down to when your at 1000 or 540 rpm pto speed the governor is just starting to kick in. Every dyno reads rpms slightly different so there’s a learning curve there. Unless there’s a rule that you have to have at least stock rpm you will never get kicked out as rules read x amount of horsepower at 1000 or 540 pto rpm. Unless they read you at less than stated pto rpm you’ll be good every time. Not really cheating, more beating their rules. Used to have a 1466 set so at 1000 rpm it’d be 120 hp. Pull it under 990 rpm and it climbs fast like 300+. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:07PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
And that's why they need checked not only at rated pto speed, they need checked at decreasing increments of at least 100 rpms so far down, which I mentioned doing in one of my posts.
Anyone operating a dyno and understands how governors work , "should" know that. I'd agree with you that that's not cheating....technically, but I'd say that that's what the "intention" was. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:07PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Our rules were 4500# 45 hp 5500# 55 hp etc. all horsepower reading were at 1000 pto speed or 540 pto speed. Most any tractor will read less at pto speed than they will if you pull them down under that. I understand that you’ll be able to recognize that on a dyno but technically how can you police it? You can’t just pick any pto rpm and decide to make that where you read from. We used to put restrictor plates in the small gas tractors, Farmall m’s and Ollie 88’s. It would knock that top hp off at pto speed but pull it under pto speed it’d still have same hp at say 480 as what it did with it without the restrictor plate in. Not trying to put your idea down. We’ve since went to mph pace no dyno and things have gotten way outta hand. Believe it’s 4 mph till 9500 then it’s 6mph after that. Good luck the dyno did us right for a long time and probably still would. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Puller 8
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Hes probably thinks that his cheater governor will fly under the radar. Just run your test and choke them down to 1000 engine rpms and record peak hp in the range from. Max rpm down to 1000 dont worry about 540 test. If the clutch holds and the throttle is on the stop, you'll be able to sort out the cheaters. Test the top 5 at the end of class. Then you won't have to test every tractor at every event. Maybe before the first and then random events do random drawings to be tested. Cheaters will always try to find a way to cheat, officials just have to be on their game to find them. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:05PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Puller 8
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By the way don't forget to check for injectable fuels, water, NOS, or whatever. Again if someone has a mind to cheat, they will stop at nothing to do so. Thats why the rpm box monitoring rpms while pulling is a crucial part of keeping people honest. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:07PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Wow again
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You're just proving the point that you don't know what you're taking about. 1000 engine rpm on a dyno for every tractor and take the max? That pump would have no torque rise left in it if you were trying to get everything at 150hp (or whatever) max throughout the rpm range. Get real. Also, you've named rpm as the culprit and you're completely missing the obvious. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:06PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Cheating a dyno
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Me thinks someone is "misunderstanding" someone else here, or someone miss spoke or taking something said , out of context..
I've got no idea how someone can "hide" an increase in "pto" HP on a dyno, if the tractors pto HP is checked "from" max eng. rpm, (no load), and then pulling the tractor down, checking the pto. hp. at decreasing increments of 50 to100 rpm, (pto), (depending on the shaft used, 1000 or 540). Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 03:06PM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Puller 8
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I am real! Thats exactly what I'm saying. I know there is no torque rise at 1000 engine rpm. Thats my point. If you start applying the brake at max rpm and continue your test down through the rpm range to 1000 rpm where we all know nothing is left then we know for sure the governor has the rack at wide open throttle, full fuel delivery. However if we test only at factory pto and engine rpm. You could have a pump set up to make say, 225 hp at that given rpm with the governor throttling the rack to maintain that rpm. Then when you continue to load the engine, the governor will adjust the rack to deliver more fuel to maintain the rpms with the added fuel the hp and torque numbers will continue to rise until you load the engine to the point the numbers start to fall off. It is not rocket science. We have played with pto and engine dynos and torque and power curves for years so yes I am quite familiar with all the little tricks that can and are played against those who do not have the knowledge of them or accesstoa dyno to play with. There are many people who have plenty of knowledge to catch the cheaters. When you cheat to great enough extremes, the safety of everyone involved is compromised. So that's the purpose of what jdpowershift is trying to accomplish with his venture that is to keep things tamed down for a true farm stock pulling class and to minimize the amount of safety equipment requirements. I still stand by my previous posts regarding these things. Good luck jdpowershift. Don't let negative people stop you from making your class a success. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Thanks puller 8, you said it better than I did. And I hope what I'm trying to do, takes off to some degree also. Neg. comments don't bother me one bit either.
One thing I AM interested in is any and all tricks and ideas that have been tried in regards to getting around a dyno and what to look for. Man did this thread take a detour. Noticed that Jake edited this discussion quite a bit.......or split it up, anyway......lol While i'm at it,Puller 8, would you hit the "private reply to this post" ? I'd like to discuss a few things with you if I could have a ph# or I'll give you mine......thanks ! Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2020 05:23PM by JDpowershift. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Yeah, I split this off as a separate topic and changed the title since it took on a life of it's own and it was quite a bit different than the original topic. I'll admit I'd like "Wow/Wow again" to tell us how he beats the dyno. It would be good fr the sport to help keep cheaters at bay. He's anonymous so he should have no problem sharing his secrets. After all, the only reason that you wouldn't share is either: he wants to continue cheating, or he's full of hot air. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Wow some more
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One more know it all, congrats on that. You really added to the conversation as your "rules" purport you're supposed to do. I don't need to tell you anything. Anonymity has nothing to do with the why. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
I think wt,hitch,tire,speed,kill switch,wheelie bars,clutch flywheel..only one you cant visibly see is clutch/flywheel..speed limit will equalize it |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Um, what did I say I knew? I didn't say I knew anything about it. I didn't say anything one way or the other, I just said I'd like to know how. How does wondering make me a know it all? In fact if I knew it all I probably wouldn't be wondering how to beat the dyno.
Well, actually I responded to let people know why I split this topic into a separate one. Seems legit to me to tell people why I split this from the original topic. There IS an administrative part of owning and posting on this page for me and I try to keep people informed of why I make some of those administrative decisions. The fact that I actually respond to the given topic by saying "I'll admit I'd like "Wow/Wow again" to tell us how he beats the dyno. It would be good for the sport to help keep cheaters at bay" seems like I actually did stick to the conversation.
I never said you needed to tell me anything. Nowhere. Not once. In fact I was pretty sure you wouldn't say anything. I wasn't positive, but I was about 99% sure you weren't going to tell us your secret method. One of the best things for this sport is to have fair and even competition, it's especially important in the entry level classes. Gaming the system at that level is pathetic, it's like blood doping for a church volleyball league. I just thought, hey maybe there's a very, very, very, slight chance you'll share to help make our sport better. Whether you agree or disagree with dyno classes you could actually do something good for the sport and give some tips for the dyno guys to lookout for cheaters, but hey, you can sit on the sidelines or you can help make the sport better you have that right to decide. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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This is dumb
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Don't let morons convince you to have a dyno either. No one wants to watch a bunch of people with 4020's go 3mph because some dumb ass choked them off to 50hp on a dyno. Well, the few of them that don't know how to cheat the dyno anyway (which is so simple it's painful you're not seeing it and has nothing to do with a governor). I know a boat load of people who know the same tricks I do and who aren't saying @#$%&. I'm baffled no one has said anything... must be a lot of cheaters out there. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Puller 8
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I'm with Jake, a lot of hot air. All I have to say, is these guys claiming to cheat the dyno, should show up to jdpowershifts pull and get caught. I bet they don't show. They are against dynos, rpm boxes, speed limits excuse they want to cheat! Plain and simple. Again, if you don't like 3 mph then put your big boy panties on and step up to the next level or even higher if u think you are that big! Keep on moving forward jdpowershift |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Just be done
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That's the thing though. We don't get caught. I'm not against it, but it doesn't work. Speed limits temper the big hp machines but they still win. I'm all for an rpm rule IF IT'S ENFORCED. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Georgee
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The enforcement is the problem every where, when someone gets shot, all the weak minded want to make more laws to govern guns, duh, WE HAVE ENOUGH NON ENFORCEABLE RULES NOW EVERY WHERE. Some one has to be the bad guy and say that "you are out", but that seldom ever happens.Good ole boyz clubs exist all over the country, even in the higher profile venues, I have witnessed it in 4-H, county fairs, kids racing, beef showing, drags and pulling, just part of the competitive world.One person's rule to submit is another's opportunity to flourish. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Antique
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So the easiest way to cheat a dyno in antique classes is mark the distributer and before you dyno give it twist and pull out timing while everyone is watching the pull you giver a twist back to peak power seen it done it know people that do it. That’s why we don’t even dyno our club anymore just check RPMs and speed limits |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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viable?
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Antique, that will not happen if puller has to dyno absolutely immediately as soon as his/her hook is completed.
This is done at the side and end of pulling track at Armada, MI pull, in view of everyone. A group of elderly senior citizens set up their pop up tent, a few chairs and the table filled with numerous aged books of tractor specs, that they pour through. One guy inspects the tractor while another watches the dyno numbers as the pto spins. As you can tell, it requires a lot of volunteer manpower. How many pull events really want to do this? |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Puller 8
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Thats why you plug each tractor in to the Fair Valley box and if the little beacon light goes off, you are out! |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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billee,
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some posters seem to have all the answers on here, real time Life situations never work out like on paper, put the pulls on yourself, police the dyno, all other areas of concern, - tell us how it went Monday. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Puller 8
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It seems these threads addressing cheaters and cheating are striking a bad chord with some? HMMM??? I wonder why? Are the ones who have been cheating now concerned with getting caught now that people are talking about it on a open forum? They always told me if you throw rocks into a pen of pigs, the one's that squeal the loudest are the ones getting hit. I guess how I see it, the more people know the better the chances of cheaters getting caught. Just my opinion. Oh and yes Billie, I have pulled, put on pulls, tech tractors and trucks, and yes sometimes you make people upset with you when you have to toss them for cheating rather it was intentional or not. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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billee,
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My experience is that big mouth wanna bees are all over, my competition days include travel internationally, overseas, much of the US.,I see em all over, not much to show, just a big mouth. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Wonder why
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Billie, why u so mad bro? |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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billee,
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not mad, just realistic, the world is not a perfect place, just Live and Let Live.Many others know the answer to all ,-----but have no clue as to what the question is.No one is going to fix cheating, politics or the other issues. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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huh?
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sounds like your giving up. just letting the cheaters cheat isnt a great plan. how bout we do the best we can and keep trying. we know that some guys will still cheat but the more we catch will scare guys from doing it. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
The "fear", ( if there is such a thing), of getting caught isn't enough.
Require a deposit at the beginning of the season to enter that club or circuit that is forfitted if found cheating and PROVABLE that the puller knew about it. The deposit needs to be large enough to "make it hurt" and make a statement. It will be returned to the puller at the end of the season, and required again next season. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Just because you may not find that "cheater" every time, doesn't mean you quit looking for 'em.
I'm interested in hearing ANYTHING anyone has to say as far as what they've seen and how some have gotten around their clubs rules concerning keeping tractors at rated...or close to.....rated HP. I get it, people cheat. If those of you who want to tell us that there's no way to stop cheating, give us examples. If you know it's going on, then I'm pretty sure you've seen examples of it ! Start pointing those examples out in this forum for ALL to see. Maybe we need to require a deposit , of say $1000 to participate in a given circuit, at the beginning of the season, that will be forfitted if found cheating IF it is provable that the puller in question knew about it, That money will be given back at the end of the season. Next season it will be required again. I see away to raise more purse money ! Still might not catch all the cheaters, but it could make it costly if caught.....just a thought......and ya, I can hear the bitching now ! Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2020 03:05PM by JDpowershift. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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9&done
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The more rules you try and have makes people stay away, an established club with working rules that have been upheld fairly well, makes for the best friendly crowd of pullers,Some adjustments along the way helps keep folks coming back, too involved with deposits and more intense crap is not fun, and that is the purpose, if it ain't fun, we won't do it, I know you are going to say that cheating isn't fun, beat them at their own game. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Wonder why
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Sooo.... what 9&done is saying, if you can't beat a cheater fair and square, then you should find a way to cheat more than him? So basically instead of trying to keep a pull honest and fair, we should all just be cheaters and not worry about it! Better yet just have a class with no rules and then we no longer have anyone cheating! Problem solved! I guess maybe make weight, make hitch, and no complaining! 3 simple rules and easy to police. Kind of like some of the truck classes that are popping up everywhere, they seem to be getting a good draw? I guess we will see for how long. But I will tell you one thing, the deepest pockets are gonna dominate, it won't be a class that many could afford after a while. It will be out of control really fast like!! |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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9&done
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You should not ASSUME that you know the other's mind. I mean that if you know someone is cheating, beating them fair and square within the rules, is a great PRICELESS way to feel really good.Taking proper care of details and crossing all the Ts and such makes a huge difference over what some think just a bigger engine does.Most high level classes are already money Dominated, even some antiques have more than 60K in the tractors they campaign. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Wonder why
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9&done, I have not ASSUMED anything, your words were "beat them at their own game". However thanks for clarification on what you really meant! Thumbs up! |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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668899
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What is "STOCK" and what is "cheating" is open to everyone's own interpretation. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Turning out somewhere between manufacturer's rated HP to maybe 30 %+/- over that, is what I consider stock.
No IH 1066, AC 8030 or Deere 4440 ever, EVER came from the factory pushing 250 hp. Cheating is getting around the rules when one knows what and or how there're doing it is wrong, and they keep on doing it because they know they can and will get away with it and it makes them "feel" like there're a winner.........must be a low self esteem thing. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Puller 8
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Where u gonna be pulling at Jdpowershjft? |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
I'm looking at starting up such a class on my farm and holding the events there for now......I've got the room for parking also.
I'm talking to a few others on different forums also, regarding what I want to doo. I'm looking at what "rules" to put in place right now, along with considering what kind of sled to use. I wouldn't mind talking with you about a few things, Puller8, if you'd email me a ph # Thanks |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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I use to pull often back in the 90's but life changed and couldn't continue to do so but I
do watch a lot of pulls though.My thought is when you're going down the track and you're against the stop on your throttle and then somewhere down the track it doesn't matter where when all the sudden the rpm's go up and you see an increase in black smoke and the front end jumps up off the ground seems like something is being injected in the motor more than diesel fuel.. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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668899
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cheating has taken place ever since Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, and two cave men tried to get the same animal or woman. LOL |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
I used to pull at a fair in New York State with a black smoke rule. It was another rule that was judged by who ? If you blew "too much black smoke" you got dq'ed. I guess I was ok never got thrown out. The bottom line is that if you are a serious puller no matter the class you will push the rules up against the wall and try not to go over. Been on both sides of the coin. I truly think Farm stock is the hardest to control. The very best job I've seen is where a pull organizer had a meeting before the pull and said you guys know what you all have so ether run in the farm stock pace class or run in the open farm class and shut the heck up. That worked because the hot guys didn't want to go 5mph. There's always those who try to run pace with big power but can't use it unless they've run enough pace to know how to use it. Once they've showed their hand the next year they're in the open farm whether they like it or not. That has been the very best way I've seen to control the Farm class in my 45 years of pulling and watching pulls. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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the bad guy
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that sounds wonderful, - however someone needs to be the bad guy and tell,(make) the obvious ones go to the next class.And not many people want or can successfully handle that task. And that is way it is bad as it is -- that it has been going on and let pass for so long. some places have three classes, stock, warmed up stock and hobby stock, then you still have the wrong tractors in the smaller hp class and not many in the proper class, no one wants to pull against themselves.Many places I have pulled have "FARM STOCK", WITH NO SPEED LIMIT, NO RPM LIMIT, then bitch when some tractors win by a 100 feet, I always say that farm stock and no limits do not go together.There are no clear answers, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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rules reign
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The "clear answer" is even Farm Stock has to have a few reasonable basic rules. That works here at our local pull.
Our Field Stock also has rules to fit their class. They are the next step up from Farm Stock. Field Stock are juiced up injection pump, blowing lots of smoke. I find it funny when a 3 mph Farm Stock beats the pants off a 14 mph Field Stock in the Field Stock class. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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Paull
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It is hopeless to think that we can as a pulling group, community and motor sport venue, will ever agree on standardized rules. In the late 90's when antique NATPA organized a complete list of rules, classes set forth with comprehensive detailed rules, many yelled for joy, -However after exclaiming it was wonderful great, awesome and more, most clubs used some of the said good rules, but quickly modified them to suit various local customs, practices and ect. - The intent and excitement was from the standpoint of standardized generally accepted rules to govern fairly over a wide and spacious country including diversity ,to gain common ground so that those whom chose to travel can do so and still "FIT" in.For the antiques it was mostly tire size rules that were widely adapted and used, but class rules quickly fell to the way side, mostly. Not much different in all other pulling when I see many posts all arguing over rules, classes, wishes and complaints at all levels.No many agree on the specifics of stock pulling, not many want to concede any power when it comes to equality,fairness, cost and grass roots start up ease for youthful competitors, almost every week a fellow mature competitor's funeral notice is posted, we are all getting older, (next yr. is here), and where are the reasons someone young would want to join all the hassle, expense and disorganized groups.County fairs are disappearing fast, other large venues are many times logistically and demographically out of reach. |
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Re: Don't forget rpms
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?
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Thats the most since anyone has made on here in almost forever !! I agree !! Pulling has got way to political and money driven !!!! |
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