04:24:31am, Saturday, May 18, 2024
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436 4 charger
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I can only get 80lbs boost out of my 436 with four chargers, hyper rods,sleeves,pistons,hyper needle cam and valve springs. stock plus + cyl. head1000 cc's of fuel ,timing set at 44 degrees,bottom to8 with 137 ex, middle to90 with 150 ex, top two to95 with132 ex. all plumbing has new o rings and even had it checked for cracks, simpson water injection set to come on at 90 psi when bench tested it works like it should so at only 80 pounds of boost it dosen't come on so I have burnt several pistons along with ruining a head so far this year. will turn 5500 rpms, clutch seems to work fine any ideas would be greatly helpful. I'm at my wits end and open to new ideas. thanks also have tried 114 ex on bottom no change, put 103 on bottom no change, put 137 back on bottom changed top two to 114 no change. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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If your chargers are good ,nothing dragging and no leaks, I might take the 90 out of the middle and put a T18A 74 in its place. It should definetly light then or even put another 95 in the middle |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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what exhaust housing on 74 thanks for help |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smoking spectator
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Try a 150 first then the 132 if she won't light. Should light either way. If not maybe cam timing or something weird is off. Keep us informed I m curious.
Whose turboes and plumbing do you have your own or somebody elses. She should light |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Registered: 06/17/2008 Posts: 137 |
If you're motor is back together, I recommend backing down the pressure on the water as an insurance measure, or plumb around the sensor with a manual switch. Better to drown it than to burn pistons, or warp a head again. If you have something heavy and secure to hook to, like a 4wd agi tractor or a tandem tri-axle, you should be able to secure the tractor enough to test building boost. Stauffers use to chain their deutzs down on the trucks tight, and build a 100 lbs of boost to check the pump, charger and clutch before leaving the shop,---if it wouldn't build it---- they'd unload and stay home. Kind of primative, but worked. John Paul Yates, of West Union, Ohio, might have a charger or some exhaust housing you could use. The late Paul Yates Red Warrior is a 3 charger lagod setup, and boost 230 or so, but they junk out a stock head every 8 to 10 runs from stress fractures, with that much boost. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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bottom and middle hyper same as i had when running twins top two 95s 20 year fellow pullerand good friend sold to me, hyper alum intake and there complete plumbing |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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8 and 90 used to work great as a twin , just think that 90 might be a bit much in the middle to get those top two to spin. A TH08 and 3 - 74's used to work good as a four stage also . Pretty reliable but a bit lazy. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Old school would be T08 with 103 and the 74 with 132 |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Posts: 756 |
Make SURE that all or the compressor wheels are tight on the shaft. I had this problem on my 3 charger setup. THe middle charger wheel was loose. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Call Max simson |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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i have |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Just curious what did Max say?? |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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in my very first post all the changes that i made were our idea, when i started the build hyper said i could't use the 90 in the middle so being on a limted budget i looked for more info so someone said call Max.he said to leave it on in the middle. then once i got it going we would fine tune. so he set the waste gate lower so we could get going and to set the fuel as high as it would go. we burnt number 2 and five piston no boost no water. He told me cam was out of time and he was correct. fixed that still same problem hence the changes i refered to. Max has been very helpful to me. this is just one of those 5 dollar fixes once we get on to it. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Have you checked the waste gate, maybe it is malfunctioning.. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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yes set at 175 lbs pops at 175 lbs thanks for all the brainstorming |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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I have a T18A 74 that I might be getting rid of. I am looking at switching to a Holset HX-60 for my application. BTW I am looking for a HX60 if anyone has one.
Thanks 
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Re: 436 4 charger
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may be interested in it , but i have anothor thought i'm running one 5 inch stack could that be putting to much back pressure on the chargers and they are not turning fast enough to build more than 80 lbs of boost yes and i have tryed others gauges thanks |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Registered: 05/20/2008 Posts: 48 |
i have a factory rebuilt 74 w/150 ex. never did run,also the guy that was lookihg for hx 60 i have a used one with no runs since bearings,its 3.150 compresssor and 3.6 ex, with single throw 32 housing. any questions or if i can help ,1-765-265-9315. chris gettinger. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Are you sure she's not starving for fuel, feed pumps ,filters etc okay. At only 80 lbs she's gotta be coal black out the stack. Hyper used to run a five inch stack out of his centerline power tractors maybe even smaller not sure.
You sure you don't have a charger dragging although I still like the 74 in the midde. 90 might work with a Sigma. Plumbing nice and smooth? |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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use hyper transfer pump running off injection pump, 45 psi at 5000 rpm use 3/4 line from tank to one wix filter use filter like on fuel tank for fueling equipment don't know micron rating then to transfer pump,1/2 line to safety valve then 2 3/8 lines to injection pump.smoke is coal black plumbing from hyper seems to be smooth inside best i can tell. have bore scope will look at it again thanks |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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call me have idea 2404178030 |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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When you tighten all the plumbing make sure its all square as to not tweak a charger housing, heard of that happening before. Even had guys leave a shop rag in the intake also.
Injectors all popping off right??? Valve train okay . How about that roller cam is it set up right? |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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thanks for all the help, starting to tear down will let you know what i find so maybe it will help others |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Still thinking ; where does the water come in at . Are you port injected or just running thru the chargers or both. Just thinking if the water was coming on in the chargers and not the motor that might explain burnt pistons and the water keeping the chargers from being lit.
Where are you located? |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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1-703-906-6334 cell phone |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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water between turbos no port six nozzles i'm located in virginia pulled down all plumbing and o-rings look good no rags inside exhaust looks fine #4 piston burnt up #3 starting to burn bottom and middle exhaust housing extreme heat burnt paint on valve cover next to bottom charger top 2 housings look fine no spun comp. wheels the best I can tell. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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SSD PULLER
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You said earlier that you had your filter between your tank and lift pump? We run our filter between the lift pump and injection pump. You will loose fuel flow if you have the filter on your suction side of your fuel sys. I run a pump of the front of my injection pump and have it set for 85psi. I also run a 3.4x 3.78 142ex botton charger and 3.9x4.4 100ex middle and two 3.9x 4.1 90ex top and it spools up easy. Have had it to 280psi but run it heavy on water and keep the boost down about 180. Use pressure gauges with check valves to hold pressure on everything each turbo intake and exhaust to find out where you a not getting action. If you have 20psi on your first stage you should get 60psi on stage two and 180psi on stage three. you can change housings as you know to increase or decrease pressures. Is your cam around 98 to 104, 100 is a good starting place and 42 on pump. I have my water coming in at 50psi and run about 4.5 qrts per run and things have been staying cool. Remember just the smallest air leak on your pressure side will hurt it bad. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Sounds like she's getting pretty hot. Maybe she's burning down before she can build good boost. Is the timing way advanced somehow? Water coming on too late?? Do you have any water nozzles in the pressure side of the bottom charger going directly in to the head or intake. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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that is what i'm thinging at this point (water to late) as the first thing to change at least if i flood it it won,t burn it, will look at fuel transfer as ssd said (post above) yes have 1 noozle at intake on pipe from bottom charger to intake. timing set at 44 btdc hyper cam is surpose to be degreed in from them, crank 1 dot to 1 dot on idler gear, 2 dot to 2 dot on cam to idler gear, 3 dot to 3 dot at idler gear to pump plus have timing marks on fluid damper. have gone back and looked at all of it nothing moved. bosch p pump at 1000 cc .044 duel feed injectors 120 big nut lines thanks for ideas. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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drippie turbo
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make sure you pump firing order is correct some pumps with different cam in them no longer fire 1,2,3,4,5,6. some need injetor lines 1&2 and 5&6 switched. firing order would be 2,1,3,4,6,5. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Incorrect if firing order not normal (153624) then it was a ccw cam which would in turn fire 1-4-2-6-3-5 when turned clockwise so you would switch 2 and 3, 4 and 5. if it's a p pump pull the cover off the bottom and turn it cw from front and watch the lobes |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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SSD-PULLER
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Never assume that the timing is right on anything!!! Alway's TDC your motor crank and zero your degree wheel there, Use a dial indicator and find TDC on #1 Intake cam lobe. when you find TDC on that lobe your crank should be atleast 98 to 104 to run right if not get it there. Timing marks are not always right. And you can get way off if you do not check this. Also inject water between each turbo stage. We run a total of 15 water injection points. Three between each turbo stage and one in each intake port. If you do not have water in these places you will melt your turbo's. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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will check it and see where it is thanks alot |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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ssd-puller #1 piston tdc with dial gauge,install degree wheel tdc mark on damper did line up, dial gauge on #1 intake cam lobe turned tell at top, degree wheel stopped on 100 good info learned something thanks |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Scott Franke
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I would have to give you my two cents worth of info. I read all the post and they are all good info. We are running a similar setup. If the top two chargers are straight 95's I would say you exhaust housings are to big. I would change them to 100's. I would bet you can stick your fingers between the exhaust wheel and housing. We tried bigger exhaust housings to get more flow went from 100's to 114's with 95/90 combos and it wouldn't light. could sit there all day at 5500rpms and it wouldn't spool up. Just my thoughts! I do know, you don't want to change a bunch of stuff all at once. You might find your problem and cause another, seen it done before. We are also running Simpson water with 12 ports for water 6 in the head and 6 in the plumbing. When we got it together last year for the first time his system was perfect out of the box. Never changed a thing and the water was perfect for what it was set at. Max is the water/turbo God. We have sold a lot of his systems and no body has had any trouble who I know has installed them. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Scott thanks for the imput, sounds like what I'm facing you have been there as well before, no I don't change alot of things at once understand where that can lead. That is why burning up engine, last Sat. 2 more pistons, liners. and 1 more cyl head that I ran one time for 144 feet As I said Max has been very helpful thats why I haven't changed the water setup. I also know many people that use his water injection that is why I bought it. That's why I have pulled engine put it on stand and am starting over from ground up. All of this info has been very helpful from everyone that has an answer to my question. It is this web site that allows fellow pullers to discuss problems and seek postive help. And yes I do listen and I have learned a great deal that I didn't know a week ago. Thanks for all of the input Mike |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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Just thinking out loud ; if everything checked out okay I would probably try 100 housings on the 95s like Franke said and if that didn't work I would take the 90 out of the middle and put a 74 in. Just can't figure out why she's buning down unless you just can't get the heat out of the motor by not being able to light er up. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Derek
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I know somebody else has already said this but you need to check your fuel pump and make sure it is firing in the same order as you have the lines set up. I have worked on another 4 charger setup and we burnt it down twice and ruint a head also and come to find out the pump was setup firing 132546. It was a hypermax pump and we called them with the numbers and they told us the firing order. After several pistons and liners and a new head we finally have got it to light. The motor sounded just fine with the lines crossed before and would drive around just wouldnt light. Just something to check before you go back together with it. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
If the pump is primed you should be able to crack the lines & see them "leak" in the firing order as you bar the engine over. I know of two different 3x4's who burnt pistons with lines on for wrong firing order. Guess if it's the same pump & lines you ran with 2 chargers it shouldn't be the problem though. |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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injection lines on the way they should be with injection pump, how about valve seat psi what should it be may as well check them while head is off. they have been on there a while ? thanks |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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Well maybe check the supply pump that feeds the inj pump to see if its turnig he right direction , you could be feeding the return line |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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smokin spectator
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What did you ever find "can't build boost"??? |
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Re: 436 4 charger
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My 90 has a 3.9 wheel in it with a .62 a/r housing, choked air right there I believe why only getting 80 lbs boost, water injection pump no good I think I was turning it to fast. Adding port water, slowing water injection pump down to 3400 rpm,s changed middle charger to 74. Thanks for all the help from everyone. Sorry so long getting back to you have been busy with building house, plus really trying to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. |
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