09:01:08am, Saturday, May 04, 2024
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Light modified
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With the light turnout in the light unlimited modified class what would a perspective puller in a light modified class want the rules to be in order to build a class that could grow? Would it be two Hemi’s at 45% , wedge heads at 60-65% Running 8-71 Superchargers , One Allison all out performance available. Turbine in the 3500 hp range. I’m just throwing out ideas. What would the actual people that would build for a light class like to see ? What’s out there now isn’t working!!! |
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Re: Light modified
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Puller
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I like the outlaw light mod or ITPA rules
Great classes and number I think a light mod class could really grow |
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Re: Light modified
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I've enjoyed watching the ITPA light mod class for many years. Fantastic variety in power and very entertaining! |
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Re: Light modified
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2nd puller
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A 2 engine v8 would work if limited. 1 Allison can only run with 1 Hemi so it would need to be very limited on the Hemi. Sure seams to me the old 5,000 mod class was one of the best mod classes I can remember. |
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Re: Light modified
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2nd puller
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5,000 lbs 1 engine Between 2,500 to 3,000 HPs total it would be the fastest ride around. |
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Re: Light modified
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The outlaw rules are good. Maybe change the weight around if necessary. But don"t make it so light that you have to run a ton of trick parts just to make weight or if there is a scale issue it makes competitors run light on the nose and hurt parts.. If you make it more of a easy step to get in to it you would have more people interested. Example would be if a mini or 2wd competitor was interested it would be a lot easier to step up to that class using the motor program they have than to have to change a ton of stuff or build every thing new for a specific class. Now that they are in the light class when time and money permit it is an easier step to mod. Unlimited is the same step from mod. Just my 2 cents. |
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Light modified
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Registered: 07/07/2015 Posts: 25 |
In the current NTPA rule book, there is a 6300 lb. modified class that a promoter can sanction on the RN level. I don't believe its been run since 2009 in Ohio. It is similar to Beamer's suggestion.
Is it awareness, lack of tractors that would run it, or some a combination of several factors? Promoters would want a decent class to book it, so if there were 10-15 tractors committed would the interest be there? |
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PPL Needs a Light Modified
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PPL Promoter
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As a promoter of a PPL sanctioned pull, I would definitely be interested in a light modified class that has good variety of engine combinations. The class should be around the same price as super farms. This would give a pull the opportunity of having a mod class without having to make the large investment of buying the big mod class. If you make this class somewhat affordable and practical it will grow fast! |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Should include a electronic ignition equipped (LS/ Gen 3 hemi/ ETC) combo. |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
In the mod committee meetings this stuff has been discussed at length and the powers that be have mentioned several times that there was a light mod class on the books and that was why they insisted on the Unlimited title and rules. Their feeling was that it would be a glorified RN class with lesser blower rules. Some of us argued that with 14-71 limits tractors could easily jump to other classes. The one thing that comes up often is cookie cutter tractors...good point but I truly believe that the evolution of tractors, what works and what doesn't, is what dictates that. Look back at any time in the history of the class and there was always a dominant tractor configuration. How many years was three Chevy's with 2 crank to crank and one up behind them the most dominant setup? Then it became the 4 engine 2x2 setup that everyone gravitated to.
Things evolve and people gravitate to the things that seem to work the best, the result is "Cookie Cutter". I will agree that eliminating the 3 engine setup for wedge type engines was not the best thing but remember that all wedge engines are not created equal some are far superior. How do you make that fair, there's more to it than run what you brung! People rave about the European light class and yes it is a great looking class. I really think the whole dynamic in Europe is much different than in the states. I most teams over there seem to have a lot more people involved with each bringing a different skill to the team. Over here it seem to be more individual families that run tractors, we run two mods with just three people and most of the time just the two of us...not much time and effort can go into R&D with that team makeup, we're lucky to get to the track each week. S'no Farmer |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
Part of the "variety story" here in Europe is, it's called "light modified", but it works with up to 440 lbs weight penalty, based upon 5500 lbs weight.
The 5500 lbs make it impossible to run full hitch height with tractors over 3500 hp and the lower-powered engine combinations get up to 440 lbs they can put on the nose, which evens things out a little. It's still most hp wins, but it has put the competition a lot closer together. For the details check to rulebook: [tractorpulling.com] As for the team and skils... yes and no. There are a lot of small teams / family teams and very successful ones. The "big teams" often run multiple tractors. I am e.g just thinking of the current No 4 in Europe wich is a father and son operation with a Paccar inline 6. Vocational education is (still) a totally different animal in northern Europe though. Under 3 1/2 years in training, you're not landing a decent mechanical job here and the better guys, who do their "master skill" do another 2 years on top of that after their journeyman time. That's then 5 1/2 years of strictly learning and then some "on the floor" when they are done. There a few parts in a pulling tractor, these guys can't build by themselves... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2021 03:08AM by Sascha. |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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Dick , I agree with you it Has to be a 2 Engine Class! I have ran a single engine tractor and a twin engine tractor. Daylight and dark in comparison. You have to have a bout the same horsepower in this class as what the light super class is so you’re talking about 3000 -3500 hp . |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 191 |
Going to need more than 3500 HP to be competitive in Light super. That would have you several hundred off the top tractors. |
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Re: PPL Needs a Light Modified
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Fan 2
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So you want a mod show for sf price?? Mods at any weight put on a better show than sf and should cost accordingly! |
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Re: Light modified
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Registered: 02/15/2020 Posts: 29 |
Make it simple! A single engine class would be perfect. An allison will struggle against 2 good hemis. Plus limiting to a single engine eliminates need for a gearbox. |
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Re: Light modified
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
The last thing national pulling needs is a single engine mod class, that's called economod class. If the NTPA leadership can't see that the class is a mess then everything thing else is hopeless. They need to fix the class, it's that simple. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2021 07:34AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Light modified
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Registered: 07/18/2016 Posts: 74 |
I just built a single engine Allison tractor. Econo mod isn't the term to use on them lol. Doesn't take long to get over 100 grand invested in one. |
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Re: Light modified
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I apologize for the term, however I still think national pulling does not need a single engine mod class. There are many light mod classes already in existence, we don't need to reinvent the wheel do we? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2021 08:26AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Light modified
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Paull
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Too many classes, make the darned rules so that people can be competitive in the classes they pull, and not let the rich and privileged overtake the class with domineering power. Economod is an antiquated term which does carry some negative connotations,however many do exist and some are rat rods, and some are pretty and expensive.. |
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Re: Light modified
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Iggy
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You say light unlimited but there are more rules in that class then there is in the modified class |
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Re: Light modified
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plb
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Light GN class is not working, period. Make it 2 engine limit w/14`s, any aircraft piston engines up to 2, 2 turbines up to 6,000 rated HP total. Industrial engines? one engine, bring what you got up to 3 pressure stages, alky or diesel. Keep weight at 6,000. Lock in for 3 years. I have no skin in the game, But as a fan in the stands, I think this would be a cool class to watch!! |
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Re: Light modified
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I remember having this same conversation with Gregg Randall in the pits several times in the 2006 and 2007 time frame. We told him over and over this would be on of the the most expensive classes and that someone would spend the money to build a 3 engine tractor. He argued and argued that it wouldn't happen. Adam, well CJ proved us right.
We told him to grow the modified class that they needed to look back at the state and regional rules. There needs to be stepping stones to get people started, and we recommended 2 motors for state, 3 for regional, and then leave the Grand National 4. I have had the privilege to work with both the Holy Cow and Mr. Twister pulling teams and know how much work and expense goes into these machines. Not very many people can just start out with a four engine modified. |
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Re: Light modified
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
You were not the only one trying to explain that the NTPA. There were several 3 engine mods in Europe at 5500 lbs (still are) by that time but sounds like they thought the laws of physics are somewhat different in the US... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Dropping one of the three GN-level mod classes makes some sense. However, if there are to be three GN mod classes, may I offer an idea that wouldn't cost current pullers anything beyond travel to GN pulls?
Instead of shoehorning RN rules into a lighter class, why not have your 3rd GN class simply follow RN weights/engine limits? 3 reasons (and one point about current Light Unlimited tractors): 1) Many more tractors already pull this class. Even non-NTPA orgs like ESP, NYTPA, East Coast (and Outlaws to an extent) would already fit the class. 2) Other than HSS and the 4-engine and unlimited class, the other GN classes mirror RN rules (TWD, FWD, SF, Mini, etc.). Even the rare RN PS hook uses GN rules. 3) It would be expected with intelligent scheduling (aka no,more than 8-10 events max and no more than 3 trips outside R2), the class could have good numbers and possibly draw in other pullers (for example, if Langford ran the class, some of the ESP or NYTPA mods may show). 4) Of the existing Light Unlimited, with the possible exception of the 2nd Corzine tractor, the others already pull in other classes. Theobold has already hooked RN mods this year. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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plb
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That sounds like a doable deal. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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No more Regional, state, or brush pull classes at GN/SN events!! The show has been cheapened enough!! |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
So, are you saying TWD, FWD, Mini, PS, SSD FWD, LSS, and SF should all be ditched as GN classes? |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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Nice try genius! Your post was about mod classes. My reply was to that! Making a regional mod class gn does nothing to advance the sport! The Mod class at Rockwell was a very good show last weekend. Really don't know what your complaint is with the Mods? sf should never have become a gn class. It was about license fees, Not show quality. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Posts: 1,162 |
Pretty sure he's talking about making the Light Unlimited class rules what the Regional Mod class rules are? That's how I took it anyways. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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That's how I took it as well! That's what I was commenting on. Another regional class is what GN does not need in my view. For one how many regional pullers want to travel as much as the GN guys do in the first place to support the class? Don't think many understand how much the GN guys travel until they actually have to do it!! |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Posts: 1,162 |
But if you lessen then rules it could open up for more to want to build for the class which in turn can help support the regional mod class. I wouldn't mind seeing something like what The Original Michael suggested. It obviously would need a little tweaking, but it's a good start and a good suggestion because as I see it now, the Light Unlimited class is on life support. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Not that it really matters but we have done both RN2 and GN Mod/GN Lt Unlimited as well as GN 2WD and RN2 2WD and traveled very close to the same number of miles. The difference is with the GN it is was further but mostly weekends whereas the RN is a lot more events that are closer but a lot of week day events. A lot of GN events were four day weekends for us because I don't drive all night anymore. The RN2 events are more often two day deals for us as we stay over and drive home the next day. We do end up staying on the road for sometimes 7 to 10 days going to one RN2 event after the other.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
My point about other classes, which is relevant to your reply about RN mods, is that in all other classes except mods, heavy supers (and I forgot Semis), the GN rules are the same as RN for those divisions. Whether NTPA should or shouldn't have 3 GN mod classes is beside the point, I just stated << if >> they are going to have 3, then seems more sensible to me to adopt the RN weight/engine limits for that 3rd class since there are already a good number running those rules, especially in the R2 area. Having a GN mod class with RN rules (including 7500 lb weight) is no more "cheapening the product" than having LSS, PS, SF, FWD, TWD, Mini, and SSD FWD GN classes that also run the same rules as on the RN level. Exact same thought process. Besides, the current Light Unlimited class appears to have run it's course. Nobody said anything against the GN 4 engine class. You read something that was not mentioned into the post. The 4 engine class is doing ok and I was not suggesting replacing or discontinuing it in any way, shape, or form. Last time there was a Bowling Green in 2019, there were 17 entries in the class. I could see similar numbers this year there. One final point- you mentioned making a RN mod class a GN class doesn't "advance the sport." I would simply point out a class of 10 tractors running these rules would "advance the sport" more than a class of 5 running the current Light Unlimited rules, especially when the current class is all twin hemis, while running RN rules/weights would allow turbines to run if they chos5e, which would offer the fan in the stands more variety. Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2021 03:28PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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The rules in those classes are different because the state and regional guys don't want the gn guys in those classes showing up at state and regional shows and whipping them! So when you ask to detune the GN equipment you have cheapened the show. If you want a regional class, invite it and advertise it as such! Don't call it something it is not, like sf for example. That is NOT a gn quality show no matter what you call it. You can see that show 4 or 5 nights a week in Ohio at any state or brush pull. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I speak for no one else, the Light Unlimited class lost it's luster when Bauer was ruled out. Any points title from that point on did NOT beat the best! It was cheapened. That rule made Doc totally unable to compete in the class. Had the rules been left alone the class may have had more support than it does now as a few may have built up for it. Ironically most that complained about Bauer aren't even supporting the class now, so how did that work out? |
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Re: Simpler idea
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what's the problem
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What's your beef with SF? Why do you keep dragging it into this topic......it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with your argument - it's your opinion only and has no merit in terms of the Mod class discussion. So leave it alone already. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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xxx
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Karma, what goes around - comes around. Period. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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sf was brought into discussion by other than me. I was just responding to it. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Mod Fan
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You don't cheap any mod class by offering lower hp rules. You cheapen it with no variety. The mods are one of my favorite classes but only if there is a variety of power plants. That's the heart and soul of the mod class, variety. Anything less than 3 different engine combos in a mod class makes it boring.
If you want to watch a good mod class go to Nebraska Bush lots of variety. Quite possibly the best mod class I ever had the privilege to watch was last year in Mound City, tons of Illinois tractors came and the variety put on one awesome show, I know they came because of Covid but there was nothing disappointing to that show. You want to see fans disappointed offer them 5 tractors a GN hook. When you pay a premium for a GN hook you want to see good pulling action. If a GN class has less than 10 hooks showing up on regular basis it's lost its luster for me. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Posts: 112 |
And them Illinois mods had such a great time at Mound City, MO last year that they were planning on returning this year. |
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Re: Simpler idea
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Fan 2
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You obviously were not at Rockwell last weekend! The Mod show was very good! Very competitive! Very entertaining! |
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